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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23413
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Posted - 2014.10.30 05:45:26 -
[991] - Quote
meant to check if warfare boosts caused anything funky, like the resist bugs of the DST, sneeze goes kaboom etc
would be funny.
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Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
197
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 07:52:22 -
[992] - Quote
JoveBishop wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:JoveBishop wrote:What a lame move. ******* crybabies win. How are you not a crybaby? Because you can't have immunity to bombers? May need some support? Boo hoo. Immunity? How about learn to play and HTFU instead of isboxing 30 accounts with I WIN button. You don't have skill that's why you need this mechanic to show others how awesome you are. Noob. You HTFU, serisouly. How much fail at eve can you have to be so scared of bombers you don't undock a Battleship.
May also want to check your facts. I have only one account and this is my main. I don't isbox and i really don't care if others do. Shesh use local and intel properly. Bombers and bombing fleets are some of the easiest things to avoid even solo.
I was in a WH and i am going back when the war dec things run out. ISBoxers and no local. I don't need to HTFU. I don't cry when Ishtars are 5x better than any BS or when T3 kick most ships clean off the battlefield. I skill up for them. I learn how to fly them, I die working a few things out. But that the way it goes. Or work out proper ways to deal with these fleets. In the ishtar case it is normally Run Away. Same with Navy Apocs.
But bombers... We spread out and don't sit around being sitting ducks. For a bomb run to work. The targets must be sitting ducks.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4349
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:02:20 -
[993] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:JoveBishop wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:JoveBishop wrote:What a lame move. ******* crybabies win. How are you not a crybaby? Because you can't have immunity to bombers? May need some support? Boo hoo. Immunity? How about learn to play and HTFU instead of isboxing 30 accounts with I WIN button. You don't have skill that's why you need this mechanic to show others how awesome you are. Noob. You HTFU, serisouly. How much fail at eve can you have to be so scared of bombers you don't undock a Battleship. May also want to check your facts. I have only one account and this is my main. I don't isbox and i really don't care if others do. Shesh use local and intel properly. Bombers and bombing fleets are some of the easiest things to avoid even solo. I was in a WH and i am going back when the war dec things run out. ISBoxers and no local. I don't need to HTFU. I don't cry when Ishtars are 5x better than any BS or when T3 kick most ships clean off the battlefield. I skill up for them. I learn how to fly them, I die working a few things out. But that the way it goes. Or work out proper ways to deal with these fleets. In the ishtar case it is normally Run Away. Same with Navy Apocs. But bombers... We spread out and don't sit around being sitting ducks. For a bomb run to work. The targets must be sitting ducks. lol, this guy.
Mate, when you are in several hundred player fight, defending something critical, you can;t just run away the second a bomber fleet turns up. What that means is there's whole categories of fits which at one time were viable and now are completely useless because a single player with isboxer can wipe them out. If you can't see why that's a critical gameplay flaw, you need serious help. Something needs to change to make isboxer less viable in fleet PvP.
It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually learn how to play EVE from more than a single viewpoint, then come back.
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Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
197
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:22:47 -
[994] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:lol, this guy.
Mate, when you are in several hundred player fight, defending something critical, you can;t just run away the second a bomber fleet turns up. What that means is there's whole categories of fits which at one time were viable and now are completely useless because a single player with isboxer can wipe them out. If you can't see why that's a critical gameplay flaw, you need serious help. Something needs to change to make isboxer less viable in fleet PvP.
It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually learn how to play EVE from more than a single viewpoint, then come back.
citation required that most bomber fleets are isboxers. And not just fleets of real pilots.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
197
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:29:33 -
[995] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:lol, this guy.
Mate, when you are in several hundred player fight, defending something critical, you can;t just run away the second a bomber fleet turns up. What that means is there's whole categories of fits which at one time were viable and now are completely useless because a single player with isboxer can wipe them out. If you can't see why that's a critical gameplay flaw, you need serious help. Something needs to change to make isboxer less viable in fleet PvP.
It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually learn how to play EVE from more than a single viewpoint, then come back. Oh and How the hell do you have a 200 ship fight in a 15km ball with BS. Your doing it wrong. Yes i have been in big fights.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
65
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:34:56 -
[996] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Oh and How the hell do you have a 200 ship fight in a 15km ball with BS. Your doing it wrong. Yes i have been in big fights.
Have you ever done what military experts are calling a fleet warp? |
Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
197
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:57:03 -
[997] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Oh and How the hell do you have a 200 ship fight in a 15km ball with BS. Your doing it wrong. Yes i have been in big fights. Have you ever done what military experts are calling a fleet warp? I think i missed the game mechanic where you can get bombed in warp.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Heinrich Rotwang
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2014.10.30 10:23:58 -
[998] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:lol, this guy.
Mate, when you are in several hundred player fight, defending something critical, you can;t just run away the second a bomber fleet turns up. What that means is there's whole categories of fits which at one time were viable and now are completely useless because a single player with isboxer can wipe them out. If you can't see why that's a critical gameplay flaw, you need serious help. Something needs to change to make isboxer less viable in fleet PvP.
It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you actually learn how to play EVE from more than a single viewpoint, then come back. citation required that most bomber fleets are isboxers. And not just fleets of real pilots.
Someone is blapping PL ships -> must be cheating. Nerf eeet! |
Yi Hyori
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2014.10.30 12:01:07 -
[999] - Quote
Something else for the player base to consider in regards to bombers is that that there needs to be a paradigm shift in fleet combat. Currently the most effective tactic is to anchor and hit f1 on broadcast'd targets. There was a time when this tactic was valid and proved to be very effective, however demanding the nerf of a single class of ships which makes that one tactic obsolete or at least extremely vulnerable does not necessarily mean we should nerf it to the ground. Perhaps fleet warfare needs to be looked at again. Perhaps it is the large fleets that need to adapt to the changing battleground.
It would be absolutely hilarious if a commander from the middle ages attempted to command an army in a modern warzone due to the changes and improvements to combat that have been developed by man. Similarly, perhaps we are all looking at this all wrong and it is the fleets that are so reliant on the anchor and f1 model that needs to shift how large fleet warfare is fought.
Even in this video game, it is quite often quoted, Adapt or die. Perhaps clinging to the old ways is not the way of the future.
edit: Please note that I have been a strong proponent for bomber nerfs, but I also believe that this new battlefield meta may need to be adapted by the players at the same time. |
Apothne
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2014.10.30 12:08:16 -
[1000] - Quote
Preface: I have FCed bombers on multiple occasions against multiple sizes and types of fleet, but have not often been a FC of the larger fleet getting bombed. I'm also pretty stupid.
To me the complaints seem that bombers can kill large fleets too easily, and nerfing their damage makes them useless against everything. The difficulty of bombing seems difficult to get just right, with ISKboxer being a thing.
Some points I am taking as given:
- In a mid-large scale fight, each bombing run has a good probability to lose some bombers to the fleet they are trying to bomb, if teh fleet is actively trying to have something to deal with bombers rather than ignoring them. - We would like bombs to be able to kill things, but currently they kill everything too well, especially battleships and especially shield doctrines (and thus especially especially shield battleships).
My proposal to consider would be to introduce a new type of bomb while making the current damage bombs less generally useful:
- Current bombs: Through a change of figures as to how signature radius affects damage and the base damage stats, I would propose total bomb damage be significantly reduced, to the point where even a co-ordinated strike of multiple wings could not kill a half-decenty tanked battleship fleet, or even to Battlecruisers. It would take 2-3 squads to volley well-tanked T1 cruisers. I would however make them such that they were still deadly to frigate and destroyer class ships, such that they have to pilot their faster ships to remain safe. - New bomb type: Resist bombs - each bomb introduces a penalty to one resist (Racial bombers get bonus to appropriate resist), such that given damage bombs now have a minimal effect to the core of a larger, well-coordinated fleet, these bombs now exists in a support role in overcoming enemy logistics. Each bomb would apply a resist penalty (with stacking penallties) to the given resist type, lasting something like 30 ingame seconds.
Bombers now become a tool for harassing/destroying a larger fleets support, as well as being a powerful tool to be used in conjunction with the main fleet of the Bomber's Alliance/Corp. The time limit of the bomb effect stipulates the need for repeated runs, meaning especially with Phoebe changes affecting the ease of getting replacement bombers into the fight via BlOps each bomber lost is a hit to the bomber wings effectiveness over time, rewarding well chosen moments to bomb and the ability to do so consistently.
I highly doubt this is an original idea, or that it is even a particularly good one, but I like sharing :)
My regards to the game designers, you guys are awesome, you do a great job and I miss hanging out with those of you that I did during my time in Iceland.
Apoth GÖÑ
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
356
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Posted - 2014.10.30 13:49:35 -
[1001] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: Lets see, 7 bombers per wave. 5 seconds between waves. That is 14 waves of bombs and it takes 70 seconds. You sat around watching 14 waves of bombs? How bad you can you be? You didn't notice that 100 extra people in local?
Yea, someone in this case was unskilled. It wasn't the bombing pilots.
Your introducing concepts way beyond an F1 monkeys abilities.
Local? wuts that. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
471
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Posted - 2014.10.30 13:51:11 -
[1002] - Quote
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Heinrich Rotwang wrote: Because such an army of alts is very likely to be funded by real money and not paid for in isk.
do you idiots think ccp accepts isk for subscriptions? you bought a gift card off someone else for isk, ccp got actual dollars (and more than if you'd subscribed), you didn't give ccp worthless space money Actually I'm exclusively funding my gameplay by selling a lot plexes in Jita. Plexes I bought with Gé¼. There seem to be people out there that have a need to buy these PLEX with isk. Wonder how much money CCP is making of them.
Exactly the same amount as the PLEXes you bought. There's no magical button to spawn 100 PLEXes to your cargo hold outside of using a credit card or paying in other approved manners. |
Herrin Asura
Vengance Inc. Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2014.10.30 13:52:06 -
[1003] - Quote
I don't like this idea tbh. Stealth Bombers are supposed to bomb and destroy stuff not to apply mass debuffs. I like your mass debuff idea for some kind of EWAR ship but not for Bombers. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
356
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Posted - 2014.10.30 13:55:27 -
[1004] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: You HTFU, serisouly. How much fail at eve can you have to be so scared of bombers you don't undock a Battleship.
May also want to check your facts. I have only one account and this is my main. I don't isbox and i really don't care if others do. Shesh use local and intel properly. Bombers and bombing fleets are some of the easiest things to avoid even solo.
I was in a WH and i am going back when the war dec things run out. ISBoxers and no local. I don't need to HTFU. I don't cry when Ishtars are 5x better than any BS or when T3 kick most ships clean off the battlefield. I skill up for them. I learn how to fly them, I die working a few things out. But that the way it goes. Or work out proper ways to deal with these fleets. In the ishtar case it is normally Run Away. Same with Navy Apocs.
But bombers... We spread out and don't sit around being sitting ducks. For a bomb run to work. The targets must be sitting ducks.
But you want the null cry babies to has skillz?
Why when they can just cry their way out of being bad. |
Apothne
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:24:56 -
[1005] - Quote
Herrin Asura wrote:I don't like this idea tbh. Stealth Bombers are supposed to bomb and destroy stuff not to apply mass debuffs. I like your mass debuff idea for some kind of EWAR ship but not for Bombers.
Lockbreaker & Void bombs already exist. Void bombs are super cool!
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6477
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:31:06 -
[1006] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Or work out proper ways to deal with these fleets. In the ishtar case it is normally Run Away. Same with Navy Apocs. Interesting, do you have a home that those ishtars or navy apocs can burn down?
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Herrin Asura
Vengance Inc. Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:37:55 -
[1007] - Quote
Apothne wrote:
Lockbreaker & Void bombs already exist. Void bombs are super cool!
Yes, and if they add your bomb idea thats ok for me, but part of your idea was to make normal bombs useless against everything bigger than a frigate. That would change the Stealth Bomber to a debuff ship. Noone goes out on a bomb run to kill a frigate.
In my opinion the only good solution would be a real good counter to bomb fleets. There is no point in making bomb runs less effective bc. its an awesome playstyle many people love. But a fleet whos aware of the existence of bomb squads should be able to take initiative of some kind to stop them. Something like a heavy cooldown pulse wich decloaks everything on grid for example.
I don't know but I'm not a developer so I am happy that someone else has to find solutions and make such decisions. |
Apothne
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2014.10.30 14:42:31 -
[1008] - Quote
Not useless, just not able to volley. if your whole BS fleet takes 20%damage from a nice run a) your logis get confused unless everyone is super disciplined and b) you have less buffer for the enxt primary for reps to catch. I'm suggesting they are only a significant lethal threat to frigates/dessies & non-brick cruisers, not for BCs/BS to be able to ignore them completely. Obviously if the larger ships sit through wave after wave after wave and the FC doesn't get hit **** sorted they'd still die.
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Herrin Asura
Vengance Inc. Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2014.10.30 15:18:04 -
[1009] - Quote
So a single bomb would make ~3% dmg on a BS. I call that useless. I guess we have different mind sets on how to fix problematic PVP constelations. I would like to see a buff for fleets wich helps them to handle Stealth Bombers, you would like to see a nerf of bombs. Both would fix the problem but I honestly think that my way of thinking keeps the expierience for everyone more interesting.
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Apothne
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2014.10.30 15:58:25 -
[1010] - Quote
A single volley from a Tengu does maybe 1000 damage to a TFI, doesn;t stop a group of them vlleying TFIs off the field :D
I would hope that a single shot from a 50mill fitted ship doesn't have a ridiculous impact on a 200mill+ ship, before we consider it's doing that blow to many ships at once.
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Aram Kachaturian
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
132
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Posted - 2014.10.30 16:20:30 -
[1011] - Quote
Who the hell in new eden is using lockbreaker bombs?
**Official Poster:-á**http://i.imgur.com/oTdKSTi.jpg (Limited stock, contact me to order)
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
92
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:24:31 -
[1012] - Quote
Apothne wrote:A single volley from a Tengu does maybe 1000 damage to a TFI, doesn;t stop a group of them vlleying TFIs off the field :D
I would hope that a single shot from a 50mill fitted ship doesn't have a ridiculous impact on a 200mill+ ship, before we consider it's doing that blow to many ships at once.
price has nothing to do with anything. |
Yi Hyori
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2014.10.30 17:50:54 -
[1013] - Quote
Apothne wrote:A single volley from a Tengu does maybe 1000 damage to a TFI, doesn;t stop a group of them vlleying TFIs off the field :D
I would hope that a single shot from a 50mill fitted ship doesn't have a ridiculous impact on a 200mill+ ship, before we consider it's doing that blow to many ships at once.
By that train of thought officer fit ships should be pretty much invulnerable , but we all know how that usually ends up.... on the front page of our favorite propaganda website :)
that aside, I understand your need to protect the status quo, but do you not feel that fleets should move on from the standard orbit anchor and hit f1 methodology? Overly complicating things should not be the answer, but just taking the nerf bat to anything that does hurts the current meta fleets isn't a great way to nurture this game either.
My personal suggestions, feel free to disassemble them, are as follows.
- Change the damage formula for bombs to include explosion velocity.
This will allow speed tanking bombs an option and not hurt shield fleets as much. Also to note, this may end up buffing armor fleets since their sig is small as it is and theyll be moving too so the explosion velocity will aide their mitigation. Would need to consider reducing bombs explosion radius as well to compensate, but that will hurt smaller ships as well.
- Decrease bomb AOE radius to 10km. Area of effect would be reduced to 20km from 30km. This would hurt the large fleets that like to clump up and orbit / f1, while rewarding skirmish fleets that are faster and allow them to avoid the bomb damage without the need for anti bomber ships. IE instacanes and firewalls.
- Introducing an armor honeycombing skill equivalent for shields which reduce the penalty of using shield extenders.
*this one needs some fleshing out as its something that came to me recently. - Introduce a module that disables launched bombs in a 10km radius.
This module would be a huge change for bombers. The module would need to be limited to BC hulls and larger. The cooldown would have to be as long as or longer than a single bomber can reload and fire again to prevent these modules from being overused to shut down bombing runs by itself. Having a single module shut down an entire wave would be unbalanced even if the cooldown was extremely long. Would have to require 2-3 of these modules to disable a wave. Maybe damage application mod for bombs only. Having it do omni AOE dmg would hurt dic bubbles.
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Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
197
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Posted - 2014.10.30 19:02:36 -
[1014] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Or work out proper ways to deal with these fleets. In the ishtar case it is normally Run Away. Same with Navy Apocs. Interesting, do you have a home that those ishtars or navy apocs can burn down? Sometimes. Sometimes indeed. But the stuff i fly. its just hard to deal with a well FC'ed well piloted apoc. And Ishtars raw DPS is hard to deal with.. depending on what your in. My typical game plan with ishtar gate camps is to explode.
Yea I jump blind sometimes.
I don't ask for everything that kills me to be nurffed.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Apothne
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2014.10.30 20:46:33 -
[1015] - Quote
Well I wasn't equating everything to ISK, evidently I was making my point poorly.
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JamesT KirkJr
Asylum Institution Care Factor
23
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Posted - 2014.10.31 03:25:42 -
[1016] - Quote
Masterkiller Mechanics wrote:Fozzie, here is a suggestion.
Have two damage bombs types: focused and support.
The focused bomb would have a small focused area of effect (3-5km radius?). This would allow for focused bombing to take out a few ships (if landed correctly) but not an entire battleship fleet (which is overpowered).
The other bomb type would have larger area of effect intended to hit more ships but doing less damage to each ship. This wouldn't necessarily kill fleets, but would soften them up in a support role.
I don't know if it's possible with your current code but capping total damage done (across all targets) is also a traditional limiter for AOE type weapons.
This could be used for splitting bomb types - damage bombs would have the small AOE and void / lockbreaker the large AOE. That handles the "multiple bombers are so OP" problem pretty nicely right there. You couldn't just all shoot at the same place and wipe out everything in a 30-km sphere, you'd have to assign bombers different targets, and that's something that would counter multiboxing.
I'd go for this idea just on that basis.
Adding in another idea - locking to set the bomb detonation spot (no tracking, it just flies straight to where the locked target was when you launched it) would fix the problem of aiming a small radius bomb, while accomplishing a lot of other things.
Target locking delays launching after uncloaking, and also warns the target. The small radius for damage bombs gives targets time to move out of the blast radius, the large radius "utility" bombs would not be so affected. Forcing locking also prevents leading the target, so damage bombs pretty much couldn't hit fast-moving targets. Which is a good thing for a weapon named "bomb". Right now you can lead them and the huge explosion radius can give you hits, which is a situation bombs weren't designed for.
I like your idea a lot. Combining it with some aspects of the target locking idea, It seems like it would fix just about all of the problems. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6478
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Posted - 2014.10.31 05:15:25 -
[1017] - Quote
JamesT KirkJr wrote:Right now you can lead them and the huge explosion radius can give you hits, which is a situation bombs weren't designed for. Interesting.
Area of effect weapons weren't designed to hit things that are not at the center of the area of effect
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Sbrodor
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
34
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Posted - 2014.10.31 06:13:19 -
[1018] - Quote
actually void bomb do a little bit more of 21 hp of damage to normal bomb, with only around 96 hp the void bomb cannot be mixed anymore with normal bombs. it is intended?
i think is coherent reduce damage of void bomb to allow the usual mix. |
Delt0r Garsk
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
202
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Posted - 2014.10.31 07:31:45 -
[1019] - Quote
Sbrodor wrote:actually void bomb do a little bit more of 21 hp of damage to normal bomb, with only around 96 hp the void bomb cannot be mixed anymore with normal bombs. it is intended?
i think is coherent reduce damage of void bomb to allow the usual mix. Void bombs travel faster but have the same range. So they detonate before the wave of damage bombs arrive. I don't recall if its enough however. I did do the math once with a half wave of void+DPS on things like t3s. Problem is you still need the t3s to be asleep for them to stick around long enough for enough wave to really do anything.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Sbrodor
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
34
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Posted - 2014.10.31 09:08:49 -
[1020] - Quote
sorry for my english. THE PROBLEM is the DAMAGE of void (7 of each type) TO OTHER BOMBS. not the problem ofc of other bombs on void (void faster ofc).
with lower HP (from 240 to 96) the VOID do a lot of damage to normal damage bomb.
ps. i wiped shittons of sleepy tengu but need the void. |
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