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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3095
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Posted - 2014.10.19 08:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2014/01/winter-summit-day-two.html
Session Twelve: Discussion Hotel. The third of four NDA'ed sessions, this is a speculative idea that CCP has been throwing around the office that they wanted impartial feedback on. The idea itself (and therefore the session minutes) may never see the light of day. It's safe to say that the CSM was of mixed opinions on the idea, with some being hugely enthusiastic and others being hugely not so much. I'm really pleased that the devs in question felt that they could trust us to listen to a speculative idea and provide feedback without expectations. It's the very thing we promised them we would do when we took office. What they say they're gonna do? Fair game for follow-up. What they say they're just thinking about? We'll leave 'em alone.
---snip---
I've handed off the minutes I wrote for this session to a couple of reelected members of CSM8, who can publish them if they see fit to do so. I will say that I was one of the people who was unenthusiastic about this idea.
Hey Ripard, nice to read you again.
After reading TMC's article on the keynote, and now this thread about whatever it is this pet project by CCP Rise, I am wondering about how many alarm bells are ringing at Reykjavik...
As they certainly look about to go into full panic and do anything to save their arses but the thing that would save their game and their company at the expense of their ego: Stop treating hiseccers as the wrong kind of players and agree that when 80% of new players just level up their Raven, the next logical step is allow them to generate and consume player generated content that way.
"Here's a spade and a bucket, use the spade to hit other players and the bucket to trash their sandcastles as we can't be arsed to develop other ways of using those tools -signed, CCP" The Greater Fool Bar-áis now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden!-áIngame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 08:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:With 20 million you could create a infinite army of market, science and datacore alts that never leave the station. Unless they have harsh restrictions on their skills, that concept will be very devastating to the account infrastructure of EVE.
They already trashed it when people started making allowed alt accounts, and then selling ISK for GameTimeCards. The more people can pump RL money into a game to be self sufficient, the worse and more facile it is to actually play the game on a single account, selling or trading, pvping, etc. It's essentially pay2win, especially when CCP then played WITH the people trading GTC for ISK and created PLEX, as well as allowing character trading. It cheapens the entire game. It's like running with cheat codes. It won't help player retention to make the game so easy, but they decided to do all that because they were very hungry for the extra money even though it breaks the entire immersive experience and such of the game.
If they made an Eve Offline as a Single Player game, that was based on the 2004-2006 version of Eve Online, I'd go play that instead. Then things stop getting easier and more dumbed down and more pay2win, because me being the only one playing it, I have to accept the game and the progression "as is" rather than shove RL money at my perceived problems. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
328
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Posted - 2014.10.19 09:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Either way having free SP / XP / lvl's from the get go is never a good idea, no matter how smart for the business. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2171
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Posted - 2014.10.19 09:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
I like the idea of having the option to have permadeath characters.
I mean it is still an option after all, I don't see why people would oppose this, it is not being forced on them. Or are people worried about player interactions with such permadeath characters? BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty. Phoebe: Remember remember the fourth of november. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2858
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Posted - 2014.10.19 09:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hehe, permadeath in a game where everybody runs with few alts and can blob on lonely kids if needed. Not to mention gate camps, smarties and suicide ganks. Permadeath in a game where ECM means you just got your bacon BBQ'ed. Permadeath in a game where you can have characters influencing universe in possibly great ways but untouchable and safe forever (market/indy alts never undocking).
I like permadeath but bringing it into current Eve mechanics is stupid. But if mechanics would change, well that could be the most awesome idea ever. Invalid signature format |
alenotna
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc Storm of Souls
2
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Posted - 2014.10.19 09:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Personally, I'm for anything that increases the playerbase. For Eve to continue to grow and develop into an even more immersive game, then the truth is that player numbers need to increase radically.
Having said that, I'm not at all sure that this idea will have that effect but if it does then so be it.
Besides... giving a brand new player a 20m sp pvp alt is like giving a five year old a hammer drill. You would have a thousand marks on the wall, none of them where you wanted the hole! I'll take those odds! :-) |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1306
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Posted - 2014.10.19 13:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yes the biggest problem is what would players do with them, the current use of multiple alts or go home, is already horribly unbalancing the game for those who do not wish to do that. This would take it to a whole new level. If however, the New space did not allow alts online, or the new permadeath, and was balanced accordingly, there would still be the opportunity for a TRUE solo player to count.
BUT. The fact that the idea is even being considered in the most vague terms, is actually strongly indicative that there is something seriously wrong with the whole training and skill system.
I know it is easier to drop in some twisted mechanic raher than correct the cause, as it prevents mass bittervet wailing and complaints that it is too easy and EVE is hard, and you meddling kids don't know what it was like in the 1900's
But IF the problem is it takes forever to master basic support skills, then deal with the actual issue rather than invent some work around that hides the reasons. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11075
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Posted - 2014.10.19 13:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hong WeiLoh wrote:I was there (quite literally, up in my room working on blog entries right now), and I'm not even sure I "got it". First, he started talking about skilling twice as fast. Then, it was "implants" that "granted SP" that could be allocated, but only to certain skills (specific mention of NO trading/manufacturing/research skills).
Either way, permadeath pilots would be perma-suspect. The whole thing just made me sit and go "But, why??" Apparently after talking about it for 30 mins, you're supposed to buy into it, that's how long Rise said it took him to convince his team.
I'll have more when I actually make out the chicken-scratched notes and compose them into a shitpoast in my blog. :-D Perma Suspect!
I'LL TAKE TEN !!!! :O I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked, with sparkles of cinnamon on my skin. You are my content, my shiny content - you make me haaappy, when skies are greeeeyyy - you'll never know dear, how much I loooooove you - don't you take my content away! |
Mijou Star
Chaotic Tranquility
13
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Posted - 2014.10.19 13:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Is this a troll i have fallen for? Plz say yes |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 15:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: But IF the problem is it takes forever to master basic support skills, then deal with the actual issue rather than invent some work around that hides the reasons.
Imho, yes, from the perspective of a new or quasi-new player switching some (or all) level 5 requirements to level 4 or similar would go a much longer way than creating throwaway characters. |
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Lateris
47
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Posted - 2014.10.19 16:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Am I correct in hearing that a new player could buy enough skill points to match a veteran who has played since launch? Are you kidding me? 0/ |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2173
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 17:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lateris wrote:Am I correct in hearing that a new player could buy enough skill points to match a veteran who has played since launch? Are you kidding me? But if you blow em up, it's all over for them. BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty. Phoebe: Remember remember the fourth of november. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
62
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 17:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Yes the biggest problem is what would players do with them, the current use of multiple alts or go home, is already horribly unbalancing the game for those who do not wish to do that. This would take it to a whole new level. If however, the New space did not allow alts online, or the new permadeath, and was balanced accordingly, there would still be the opportunity for a TRUE solo player to count. BUT. The fact that the idea is even being considered in the most vague terms, is actually strongly indicative that there is something seriously wrong with the whole training and skill system. I know it is easier to drop in some twisted mechanic raher than correct the cause, as it prevents mass bittervet wailing and complaints that it is too easy and EVE is hard, and you meddling kids don't know what it was like in the 1900's But IF the problem is it takes forever to master basic support skills, then deal with the actual issue rather than invent some work around that hides the reasons.
you honestly hit the bullseye with your comment, very well said and ccp seems to come up with this stupid alternative instead of saying ok they realize new players hate the slow training and waiting forever to get into skills/ships and so on.
they need to face the reality.. leveling up in this game is boring as fawk! waiting forever to do something is also boring as fawk!.. everyone out there knows eve online means you're about to wait on online to do something.. bittervets are just going to be bitter.. but ccp needs to accept the wakeup call and fix the skills training part
if they're already thinking of speeding up skills training for new folks.. just to gank them in skills once they sub, then it will have even a larger detrimental effect on retaining new players...
ccp rise I hope you wake up with a hangover and realize that you will never retain new players coming up with this..
and oh yea... this comes out.. it means extra griefer tools more than ever which im sure ccp likes afterall. |
Ripard Teg
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
965
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 17:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:As they certainly look about to go into full panic and do anything to save their arses but the thing that would save their game and their company at the expense of their ego: Stop treating hiseccers as the wrong kind of players and agree that when 80% of new players just level up their Raven, the next logical step is allow them to generate and consume player generated content that way. If I were writing about EVE these days (I'm not), I would speculate that a ton of dev effort these days is being spent on subscription retention. There's a lot of thought given to "Here's our end state goal. How do we get to it without pissing off too many of our existing customers?" Even Greyscale of all people in one of his posts mentioned that he wanted to implement his changes slowly enough for null-sec's player base not to shrink, or something to that effect.
At the summit, permadeath struck me as a one-off toy for people who are too bored or too jaded to play EVE any other way. The current lords of null-sec have had the game designed practically to their exact specifications for five years now. They're all unbelievably rich and for all practical purposes have every SP in the game. They've done it all and seen it all in pretty much every combination. They could quit EVE but why should they? They own the place. Let's hope that CCP's plan for the next year includes some eviction notices so that some new blood can try out that part of the game.
But that doesn't mean that CCP wants to lose the market the current lords of null-sec create for PLEXes, or the subscription numbers they represent.
So if this goes in, I see it as a cynical attempt to retain that market for another year or two.
[/garth] aka Jester, who apparently was once entrusted to Wield The Banhammer to good effect. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
53
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 17:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Perma-death....could be kind of cool
But only if such a character is rolled up with totally random skills, dependent on intial school, race, and bloodline.....basically Lore correct...could even have a few other tweaks so they could RP from the perspective as some snot nosed Rich gallente kid, a Caldari Scientist, a Minmatar slave, Amarr Slaver or Nobility.
At this point give the white knights something they would love....let them have the ability to sign up with CONCORD adn HAVE to live by the tenets of CONCORD. Maybe then we could start tanking and killing CONCORD then because its a player.
OR let them join their respective militaries.....and then only PERMA-death characters can get missions or patrols for patrolling the plexes in FW or something...
Otherwise....i see no point in having this in game....its uselss for all the reason so far stated against it. But if it does come into play....i really hope newbs do try it first so we can kill them on sight because a 20 million SP toon is not a rookie toon i dont care what others say. When they cry about being blasted by vets all the time.....we can say get a regular character or STFU and eal with it. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
2095
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 18:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Hell yes!!!
Before long, we will be able to hop aboard a speeder with our trusty panda sidekick, fighting the forces of evil with a butter knife that scales with your strength, upon the planet of Mongo.
Forget player-made stargates...
I fully embrace EVE Online: Rise Of The Pandaverse: Flash Strikes Back!!!
My body is ready.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense. |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11083
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 19:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:Lateris wrote:Am I correct in hearing that a new player could buy enough skill points to match a veteran who has played since launch? Are you kidding me? But if you blow em up, it's all over for them. That's podloss, no? I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked, with sparkles of cinnamon on my skin. You are my content, my shiny content - you make me haaappy, when skies are greeeeyyy - you'll never know dear, how much I loooooove you - don't you take my content away! |
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
so i can just spawn these permadeath alts... without training.. and if one dies.. i make a new one 4_4 wut??
and permadeath alts are sansha right? 3_3 |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11083
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
The idea is so bad, that the unforseen consequences would be hilarious! I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked, with sparkles of cinnamon on my skin. You are my content, my shiny content - you make me haaappy, when skies are greeeeyyy - you'll never know dear, how much I loooooove you - don't you take my content away! |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
49
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
So basicly they are saying the influx of new players is too low..
While the vest are leaving because of the blue donut... which was a direct result of the technetium fuckup
I bet most ppl playing because a "friend of theirs recommend it" or similar... But what happens if that "source" dries up.
yes! you guesd it! plex go's up!
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
11083
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:So basicly they are saying the influx of new players is too low..
While the vest are leaving because of the blue donut... which was a direct result of the technetium fuckup
I bet most ppl playing because a "friend of theirs recommend it" or similar... But what happens if that "source" dries up.
yes! you guesd it! plex go's up!
Less "not enough incoming" ... ... more "not enough staying" ... ... which has less to do with CCP ... ... and more with people in rookie corps.
Except CAS, I guess. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked, with sparkles of cinnamon on my skin. You are my content, my shiny content - you make me haaappy, when skies are greeeeyyy - you'll never know dear, how much I loooooove you - don't you take my content away! |
Alice Johansen
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
7
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Posted - 2014.10.19 20:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Permadeath is a bad idea. Depending on how you handle the skill point mechanic you either create a super risk averse playstyle (because death means losing possibly months or even years worth of SP) or you create powerful disposable alts. It just doesn't work with the skill system we have in EvE. |
TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
895
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 20:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
Assuming this is not some elaborate troll...
I'm spotting a trend here with the last few announcements regarding infinite skill queues and lifting restrictions on trial accounts. Now perma death characters that can be insta trained to whatever you wish? Next step is increased SP rates for a fee no doubt?
I don't like the direction this is going. This is edging closer and closer and closer to a pay to win model that is going to kill off everything EVE Online stands for. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
63
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 21:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Trin Javidan wrote:So basicly they are saying the influx of new players is too low..
While the vest are leaving because of the blue donut... which was a direct result of the technetium fuckup
I bet most ppl playing because a "friend of theirs recommend it" or similar... But what happens if that "source" dries up.
yes! you guesd it! plex go's up!
Less "not enough incoming" ... ... more "not enough staying" ... ... which has less to do with CCP ... ... and more with people in rookie corps. Except CAS, I guess.
I disagree, it's 100% on the hands of ccp to bring in new players, retain them and grow the game.. but they allowed the community to do their job with the "invite a friend mess". that's lazy and a cop out from a gaming company that has its head so far up a spreadsheet's exhaust that they're now looking even more absent minded on why new folks do not stick around.. at the same time they're stuck in a corner too afraid to make changes cause it may hurt their friends in power feelings.. that's why eve is stuck where it is.. the HTFU crowd pushed all the newbs away... the umm TMC laugh fest on why a newbie wow player who spent money tried to get into eve although being totally stupid doing so in his actions.. caused him to be on front street.. he went back and guess what he did.. he told his friends to not try eve cause of what he experienced.. the community itself is a double edge sword at getting new people to stay and play just as much as ccp is.. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 21:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:I like the idea of having the option to have permadeath characters.
I mean it is still an option after all, I don't see why people would oppose this, it is not being forced on them. Or are people worried about player interactions with such permadeath characters?
Having alts isn't "forced" on you either, except that you lose very real competitive in-game edges by flying in a single account with a single character.
If having alts wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't do it. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
63
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 21:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:KuroVolt wrote:I like the idea of having the option to have permadeath characters.
I mean it is still an option after all, I don't see why people would oppose this, it is not being forced on them. Or are people worried about player interactions with such permadeath characters? Having alts isn't "forced" on you either, except that you lose very real competitive in-game edges by flying in a single account with a single character. If having alts wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't do it. TigerXtrm wrote:Assuming this is not some elaborate troll...
I'm spotting a trend here with the last few announcements regarding infinite skill queues and lifting restrictions on trial accounts. Now perma death characters that can be insta trained to whatever you wish? Next step is increased SP rates for a fee no doubt?
I don't like the direction this is going. This is edging closer and closer and closer to a pay to win model that is going to kill off everything EVE Online stands for. You can already pay to win with PLEX and buying high SP characters. It's entirely possible for a person with a few hundred or thousand dollars to buy a high SP character, shard PLEX for billions of isk, and play off of that instead of do any ISK generating jobs in the game.
having alts IS forced on you for instance you decide to join the game and work as a freighter pilot.. it takes more than 1 to do a task.. folks want to try and hide that fact.. you must have a scout your friends may not be online as much.. matter of fact eve is the only game I know where it basically tells you to "train up an alt" at 1st sign up.. lol so yeah it does force you into alt madness. they made the game too difficult for one character... its "the power of two" that matters. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 21:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
or you could join a corporation, and then people can fly scout/web jump/logisitic for you for pay, or you can high merc corps to do similar.
Without alts, THAT is what people would have to do. Which means profits spread around, better economy for everyone big or small, and more things for people to do in game as an individual with only 1 character. Diversity is created through specialization and lack of ability to step into multiple roles. |
Lateris
47
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Posted - 2014.10.19 21:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Were frakking cloned bodies. Permanent death doesn't fit this game.
What the hell ever happened to the old CCP that used to have a clear vision for the game instead of all these noobs coming in the picture? Everything was great until upper management hit us with that BS instant win crap and we all had to protest it. Sorry I am ranting...no offense but this is utter crap. 0/ |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
63
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 21:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lateris wrote:Were frakking cloned bodies. Permanent death doesn't fit this game.
What the hell ever happened to the old CCP that used to have a clear vision for the game instead of all these noobs coming in the picture? Everything was great until upper management hit us with that BS instant win crap and we all had to protest it. Sorry I am ranting...no offense but this is utter crap.
what happened?? they got better jobs and left this to these guys who cant get better jobs.. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4939
|
Posted - 2014.10.19 22:01:00 -
[60] - Quote
Meh. Let me brainstorm some stuff.
Not capsuleers but mortal elite captains. Don't train skills. Skillset defined by chosen class. Restricted to one ship size/class. Mandatory membership in factional warfare. no wallet, no market ability. Earns LPs through FW. Can buy equipment with LPs. Capsuleers can offer LPs for equipment. When ship dies not in capsule but in escape pod. No warp in escape pod. Will get moved to the designated FW station after a timer expires should the pod survive. LP store offers skill implants to improve the ship crew.
Bah. Still no good. A game has to be designed around this concept. It just doesn't work right with EVE. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
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