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Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2011.11.26 16:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote:I have one very real question: "why are the new third teir Battlecruisers that are cappable of firing Battleship weapons, made of paper?"
CCP secretly wants to see the glorious return of Helicity and Hulkageddon with new cheap ships intended to deal out awesome damage in one or two shots... :)
I for one await the return of Hulkageddon and the new T3 blueprints. Stocking up minerals now. :) |
Baden Luskan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2011.11.26 18:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote:just imagine, how I felt. la la la, I have earned a tengu! la la la, let's explore low sec... I fitt HAMS, max range with all the bells and whistles: 47 KM. 146 km a mach fires.... booms! 12 KM to the gate, who do you think will win?
So, you set up a Tengu for short range combat (Heavy Assault Launchers) and then are frustrated when a long range sniping ship has greater range than you?
Plus, I dont know what kind of Tengu you fly, but the oens I am in can esily withstand the damage a Mach can do in the time it would take to slow-boat it back to a gate. You put an afterburner or a micro-warp drive on the Tengu and I doubt he would be able ot even lock you before you jumped.
One last thing.....if you are exploring low sec in a Tengu without a cloak or an Interdiction Nullifier, then you do not need to explor anything past a 0.5 system until you have a better grasp of game mechanics. |
Thomas Abernathy
Beekeepers Anonymous
11
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Posted - 2011.11.26 18:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote:just imagine, how I felt. la la la, I have earned a tengu! la la la, let's explore low sec... I fitt HAMS, max range with all the bells and whistles: 47 KM. 146 km a mach fires.... booms! 12 KM to the gate, who do you think will win?
Properly fit, the Tengu should have walked back to the gate with no trouble... If it didn't you need to actually skill up some defensive stuff. "Fighting CCD since 2139" |
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
17
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Posted - 2011.11.26 18:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
OP didn't get the memo or the >9000 dev blogs on the subject. |
Thomas Abernathy
Beekeepers Anonymous
11
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Posted - 2011.11.26 18:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Odd, I thought the new BC's were specificlly built for killing defenseless Mom's?
"Fighting CCD since 2139" |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
255
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Posted - 2011.11.26 20:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
They are supposed to be glass cannons, that was stated in the dev blog about them. But the op of course is like all the other forum whiners and cannot read.
Also, they do have a role. They are great capital gankers. Their speed an manueverability just make them great for ganking capitals. |
Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
The T3's are glass cannons. Their design and fittings makes them perfect for solo ganking Hulks, but we all know that no-one does that.
I doubt there is any role for these ships that can't be filled by another ship that already exists. Wars have been fought just fine without them for years. Profit favors the prepared |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
382
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:bebe kitteh wrote:I have one very real question: "why are the new third teir Battlecruisers that are cappable of firing Battleship weapons, made of paper?" .......
My understanding is that the new Tier 3 BC are intended for a specific purpose, which is an effective weapon against capital ship dominated fleets. This encourages diversity of fleet compositions, since a good FC will have to consider a counter to the possibility of bumping into a fleet with a healthy compliment of Tier 3 BCs. Respectfully, I don't believe that the intention was to create a new FOTM solo mission ship and I guess that having a 'glass tank' prevents this. I like the look of the Tornado but I'll probably be sticking with my Hurricane for solo/small gang roams.
Entirely correct except that the new Tier 3 BC primary role is to be ideal for small roaming gangs. It's secondary role will be to be a good choice vs enemy capital ships.
Currently Battleships and Battle Cruisers have difficulty in fast moving gangs. The new Battle Cruisers bring Battle Ship class damage to these gangs in a nimble platform that can easily keep up. They also lend themselves well to the warp in/kill/warp out tactics these gangs often employ.
VS Caps they will be a good choice considering their speed and small sig radius (for a BC) when being targeted by Cap class weaponry in relation to the firepower they can put out.
Suicide ganks, while an ideal use for them, will rank 3rd in terms of raw numbers of these ships used for that purpose. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
29
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote:I have one very real question: "why are the new third teir Battlecruisers that are cappable of firing Battleship weapons, made of paper?" ...
You answered your own question |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
382
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
OP, using a ship that falls into the "glass cannon" category requires a very different mind set and tactics than flying a heavy tank. You always need to be mindful of when your targets attention shifts to you and be ready to reposition quickly if your speed/traversal/range is not sufficient to keep you intact.
Your primary tenant is to hit hard and fast, get out quickly when necessary (so don't get tackled), and get back in to apply that massive damage again as quickly as possible. You must maintain a much higher level of situational awareness then most heavy tank pilots do.
It's not everyone's preference, but can be quite enjoyable once you get the hang of it. Ask any SB pilot. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1032
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
They're meant to be "all gank and no tank," otherwise they'd outclass Abaddons and Maelstroms (nobody flies Rokhs and Hyperions) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
382
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Andski wrote:They're meant to be "all gank and no tank," otherwise they'd outclass Abaddons and Maelstroms (nobody flies Rokhs and Hyperions)
I'm hopeful that the popularity of Rokhs and Hyperions will change, at least to a degree. I think that is something we won't know for sure until people have a chance to play with them post patch for a while in TQ circumstances.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1677
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 21:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Fix My Lasers wrote:- DPS is done with BS sized guns. Which means they can't hit well targets up to the cruiser size. - No Drones except Talos. Which means every ship that is smaller then a cruiser can eat you alive. - No Tank or very little. Well I actually don't mind that. Glass cannon should have low HP, but high utility and versatility, sadly those BCs don't have utility nor versatility. - The price is too high. t1 BS might cost you less. If I was to choose between t3 BC and t1 BS I'd take Phoon or Domi for sure. Those BCs can't compare to them. - Making a PvP ship only is a fail. 80% of this game is about PvE. Carebears and others outnumber everything. - The role of those ships itself is a bit useless and can be replaced with another ship type easily. All of these are either good things, or just wrong.
The Tier-3 BCs are the only proper BCs in the game, and aside from the Talos having drones, are pretty darn well designed form a conceptual standpoint. As for the Carebears, they have no need for any new ships, so why on earth would you waste valuable development time on something as pointless as that? GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
382
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Posted - 2011.11.26 22:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Yeah, lets look at that:
- DPS is done with BS sized guns. Which means they can't hit well targets up to the cruiser size.
"IF" they are right on top of you. At any kind of range frigates and cruisers can be popped fairly easily if you know how it's done.
- No Drones except Talos. Which means every ship that is smaller then a cruiser can eat you alive.
For balancing purposes this is a good thing. Without this these ships would be stupidly overpowered.
- No Tank or very little. Well I actually don't mind that. Glass cannon should have low HP, but high utility and versatility, sadly those BCs don't have utility nor versatility.
Any ship or fitting of a ship to fall into the "glass cannon" category does NOT tend to be versatile, thus the designation of glass cannon. It does one thing well, it shoots (hard) and scoots.
- The price is too high. t1 BS might cost you less. If I was to choose between t3 BC and t1 BS I'd take Phoon or Domi for sure. Those BCs can't compare to them.
Price should be just below T1 BS, with is just about right. If you try to take a Phoon or a Domi with a fast moving roaming gang you will be asked to go reship. Current BC's are sometimes allowed to accompany roams of this type, but reluctantly as they tend to slow down the fleet. These new BC's do not suffer from that drawback.
- Making a PvP ship only is a fail. 80% of this game is about PvE. Carebears and others outnumber everything.
There are very few ships in game that fall into the PVP only category. No, these ships will likely not be used in level 4's, but for ratting or most anything else they will certainly see use. That being said, saying that the development of a few PVP only ships is pointless is absurd in the extreme. By your logic any ship that focuses primarily on EW is fail.
- The role of those ships itself is a bit useless and can be replaced with another ship type easily.
As shown above, that is simply not the case. Even vs Cap ships these new BC's have significant advantages over BS use (being much harder for cap ships to hit), let alone at thier primary role of fast, small gang support/firepower.
I'm sorry you can't do level 4's in them, you'll have to choose from the vast array of ships that can handle them already available to you. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
54
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Posted - 2011.11.26 22:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
One thing these ships will be great for: high sec anoms. Warp in at 50+km and pop everything that spawns in one volley, no matter what it is.
Note: may be good for the same thing in low sec, if you fine an empty system.
edit: and nice post Ranger. |
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.11.26 22:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fix My Lasers wrote:- DPS is done with BS sized guns. Which means they can't hit well targets up to the cruiser size. - No Drones except Talos. Which means every ship that is smaller then a cruiser can eat you alive. - No Tank or very little. Well I actually don't mind that. Glass cannon should have low HP, but high utility and versatility, sadly those BCs don't have utility nor versatility. - The price is too high. t1 BS might cost you less. If I was to choose between t3 BC and t1 BS I'd take Phoon or Domi for sure. Those BCs can't compare to them. - Making a PvP ship only is a fail. 80% of this game is about PvE. Carebears and others outnumber everything. - The role of those ships itself is a bit useless and can be replaced with another ship type easily. All of these are either good things, or just wrong. The Tier-3 BCs are the only proper BCs in the game, and aside from the Talos having drones, are pretty darn well designed form a conceptual standpoint. As for the Carebears, they have no need for any new ships, so why on earth would you waste valuable development time on something as pointless as that?
Imagine every CCPs new content were made for non-carebears. In other words every expansion they get nothing to play with. How many will be here to stay? What will be when every carebear leaves? My guess there will be 3000-5000 people online at prime time. Eventually with no money support game might die.
Yes, I'm being very dramatic here. But still it's very sad when new stuff comes in and there is nothing for you in it.
As for me, I'm going to fit Thrasher or Dramiel after expansion kicks in and go ganking those new BCs with a few buddies. I only see Talos fits good in a small roaming gangs. Because sniping doesn't work well in this type of a gang.
When you say to someone things like: You suck, you are dumb or anything that specifies someone you should think twice before saying them. Maybe you're the one who fits those words in a first place? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1677
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:30:00 -
[47] - Quote
Fix My Lasers wrote:Imagine every CCPs new content were made for non-carebears. Why would I imagine that?
Quote:As for me, I'm going to fit Thrasher or Dramiel after expansion kicks in and go ganking those new BCs with a few buddies. Good luck. You're going to need it. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Xolve
Insomniacs.
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote: Drivel, lots of drivel
So you won't fly anything that can be one-shotted by a Machariel? (Also- Nice love the fotm machariel fanboi, and omgpiratebs'sareOP in the same post)
So no frigates, no cruisers, no PvE Battleships/T3's, no haulers.. your an idiot.
Fix My Lasers wrote: - Making a PvP ship only is a fail. 80% of this game is about PvE. Carebears and others outnumber everything.
No- 80% of your game is about PvE. MMO's either cater to all sides, or dwindle and die.. You got marauders, we're getting battlecruisers. Besides- for PvE who needs more then a Tengu? |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
165
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
A+++ troll would read again |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
490
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Posted - 2011.11.26 22:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
Fix My Lasers wrote: - DPS is done with BS sized guns. Which means they can't hit well targets up to the cruiser size. - No Drones except Talos. Which means every ship that is smaller then a cruiser can eat you alive.
These things can hit Cruisers fine and your gang should take care of anything smaller.
Quote:- No Tank or very little. Well I actually don't mind that. Glass cannon should have low HP, but high utility and versatility, sadly those BCs don't have utility nor versatility. They have more then enough HP. My Shield Nado gets 50k EHP, my Oracle 45k EHP. Learn to fit.
Quote: - The price is too high. t1 BS might cost you less. If I was to choose between t3 BC and t1 BS I'd take Phoon or Domi for sure. Those BCs can't compare to them.
No T1 Battleships will not cost you less. These Battlecruisers move faster then most Cruisers. If you do not know why that is a wonderful incredible thing that makes these things all but God Ships then you really need to wipe the drool off and stop pretending you have a clue what you are talking about. My God you actually compared two classes of ships with completely different roles as if they overlap in anyway.
Quote: - Making a PvP ship only is a fail. 80% of this game is about PvE. Carebears and others outnumber everything.
Those numbers are accurate... |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
382
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Posted - 2011.11.26 22:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Quote:As for me, I'm going to fit Thrasher or Dramiel after expansion kicks in and go ganking those new BCs with a few buddies. I only see Talos fits good in a small roaming gangs. Because sniping doesn't work well in this type of a gang.
More power to you. Small, fast moving ships are indeed the Achilles Heel of these ships.
However, you should probably figure out what you going to do about HIS buddies insta-popping you from 25km's out while you are getting your gank on. All that these ships need do to be effective is stay out of point range... whether that is 25km's or 100kms depending on fit.
Get back to us in a couple of months and let us know how that works out for you. Who knows, once you figure out what you are doing perhaps there will be a future for you in small gang combat. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
35
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Posted - 2011.11.26 23:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Putting BS-size guns on a hull with the speed of a cruiser is going to be great for pvp. It is going to be more important than ever to control range in the fight, and fitting a ship is going to be more than maxing your dps at "shoot 'em in the face" range in EFT.
I think the eventual result of having these ships around is going to be better pilots and manual flyers. I like this. |
Alain Kinsella
10
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Posted - 2011.11.26 23:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:OP, using a ship that falls into the "glass cannon" category requires a very different mind set and tactics than flying a heavy tank. You always need to be mindful of when your targets attention shifts to you and be ready to reposition quickly if your speed/traversal/range is not sufficient to keep you intact.
Your primary tenant is to hit hard and fast, get out quickly when necessary (so don't get tackled), and get back in to apply that massive damage again as quickly as possible. You must maintain a much higher level of situational awareness then most heavy tank pilots do.
It's not everyone's preference, but can be quite enjoyable once you get the hang of it. Ask any SB pilot.
Also, anyone who's flown in Destroyer wolfpacks will be eyeing the idea of 'scaling up' that concept to frightening effect. Or just keep flying Thrashers as support, since they just got seriously buffed too.
I look forward to Agony asking us Alumni for anyone willing to sacrifice a T3 BC. Though I'd probably want to fly a Logi instead, it might be cheaper.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:As for me, I'm going to fit Thrasher or Dramiel after expansion kicks in and go ganking those new BCs with a few buddies. I only see Talos fits good in a small roaming gangs. Because sniping doesn't work well in this type of a gang. More power to you. Small, fast moving ships are indeed the Achilles Heel of these ships. However, you should probably figure out what you going to do about HIS buddies insta-popping you from 25km's out while you are getting your gank on. All that these ships need do to be effective is stay out of point range... whether that is 25km's or 100kms depending on fit. Get back to us in a couple of months and let us know how that works out for you. Who knows, once you figure out what you are doing perhaps there will be a future for you in small gang combat.
True. No matter how good destroyers will be at dps, they still are a paper and pop up very fast. Actually by Thasher I meant Sabre since no one flys real Thrasher, at least not in my corp. Was my bad.
Didn't fly any dictor for a long time and now I've found some reason to do it out again.
Anyways in a few days we might have a chance to see how it works out. When you say to someone things like: You suck, you are dumb or anything that specifies someone you should think twice before saying them. Maybe you're the one who fits those words in a first place? |
Xolve
Insomniacs.
40
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
Fix My Lasers wrote: True. No matter how good destroyers will be at dps, they still are a paper and pop up very fast. Actually by Thasher I meant Sabre since no one flys real Thrasher, at least not in my corp. Was my bad.
.
There is no such thing as bad ships, just bad pilots.
The amount of 'I honestly have no clue what I'm talking about' in this thread is ridiculous...
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Xolve
Insomniacs.
40
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:50:00 -
[56] - Quote
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Imagine every CCPs new content were made for non-carebears. In other words every expansion they get nothing to play with. How many will be here to stay? What will be when every carebear leaves? My guess there will be 3000-5000 people online at prime time. Eventually with no money support game might die.
Yes, I'm being very dramatic here. But still it's very sad when new stuff comes in and there is nothing for you in it.
Uhhh.. Incarna came out 6 months ago- let the needless whining cease already.
This is a PvP game, just because your playing the equivalent of 'Solitaire in Space' doesn't mean a large majority of the playerbase hasn't been desperately awaiting this xpac.. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
281
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
bebe kitteh wrote: a 1400 fit mach with extras to boost gunnery will eat damn nearly anything alive. 146 KM, 14K+ volley damage. .
No it can't.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
233
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Posted - 2011.11.27 01:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
The role of the Tier 3 is to deliver BS-sized weaponry to the battlefield to be taken against larger ships. A BS can almost tank BS-fire, but beyond that class, even larger and slower ships sustain more damage to BS-sized weaponry. Therefore is a "one up" in weapons size that will make the Tier 3 deadly for capitol ships and a huge damage factor for battleships.
However, the inability to sustain damage, and the nature at which capitol ships are engaged in fleet encounters, implies that the Tier 3 ship is going to depend heavily on support.
Hence you will see a case whereby the cap ships are "nerfed" to such a degree that they require support, and so a tool that can be deployed cheaply to attack them also requires support. This is evidence that CCP is continuing further in development of mechanics that further the concept of "group play".
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
328
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Posted - 2011.11.27 02:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
If you want to run around solo in your tornado, feel free, get pasted.
If you and 5 friends want to roll around in tornadoes, then I be scared.
If you don't like it, don't fly it.
WHy is that so fuckin hard? Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ... Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon. Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
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Frogsnail Toast
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 03:19:00 -
[60] - Quote
What do you guys think about using the Tornado for vanguard sites?
It has 55.9K EHP fit with: 2x Invuln II 1x Photon II 2x LSE 2x Defense Field Extender 1x Anti-Therm Screen II
With 76, 72, 73, 77 resists. Coupled with a sig radius of 248 and a speed of 281 m/s.
The recommended Hurricane fit has 59K EHP with same resists, 290 sig, 206 m/s.
So.... Tornado should hold up fine yes? |
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