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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
16
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:49:40 -
[1] - Quote
I've seen a lot of complaints about drones - especially Ishtars - and it seems everyone's primary complaint is that small ships are hitting far too hard above their weight class. Some others also complain that drones are too versatile... but I think that's more fair considering travel time and the fact they can't be overheated.
Is there any reason bandwidth can't be rebalanced across the board? This could effectively cap each droneboat's ability to smash larger targets while not affecting their efficacy against smaller/same sized ships at all.
Imagine this approach (primarily for Gallente ships):
- T1 ships have enough bandwidth for drones of their weight class
- Faction ships have 20% more bandwidth than T1 ships
- T2 ships have 40% more bandwidth than T1 ships.
So, for instance:
- A Tristan has 25 mb/s
- An Astero has 30 mb/s
- An Ishkur has 35 mb/s
Also:
- A Vexor has 50 mb/s
- A Vexor Navy Issue has 60 mb/s
- An Ishtar has 70 mb/s
Battleships and up would have 125 mb/s, though higher tech ships could potentially field 3 Geckos due to having 165 mb/s bandwidth! Battlecruisers are tricky, though could possibly be given a base 75 mb/s (with 90 for faction and 105 for higher tech).
Frigates could easily field lights, but T2s could field some (not a lot) of mediums. Cruisers could easily field mediums, but only a very limited number of heavies/sentries. Etc etc.
Obviously there would have to be a lot of additional tweaks to go along with this.
There's also the crazy option of nerfing bandwidth then adding in BANDWIDTH MODULES that increase bandwidth. Not sure what slot these would fall into, but could only be equipped on the appropriate weight class:
- Small Drone Bandwidth Amplifier: Increases drone bandwidth by 5 mb/s.
- Medium Drone Bandwidth Amplifier: Increases drone bandwidth by 10 mb/s.
- Large Drone Bandwidth Amplifier: Increases drone bandwidth by 15 mb/s.
Now an Ishtar could field more heavies/sentries, but at the expense of other modules. This could also lend itself to interesting fits, especially for ships that use drones as secondary systems.
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elitatwo
Congregatio
374
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:51:40 -
[2] - Quote
Wrong section and no.
signature
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
16
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:53:38 -
[3] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Wrong section and no.
Oops! (I don't know how to delete or move the thread)
You've just read another amazing post by WiNGSPANTT, the 4th Best Commentator on YouTube! GÇï Follow along with my exploration and stealth bomber adventures on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/wingspantt
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Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why would you want to increase the drone bay of the Astero and Ishkur ?
I agree that Ishtar, Navy Vexor and Prophecy need 100mbs, like Myrmidon.
Yet there remain the Worm and Gila that have a DPS issue that can't be fixed by adjusting drone brandwith.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
145
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Posted - 2014.10.20 19:15:05 -
[5] - Quote
drone bandwidth was the way of limiting ships drone capabilities, Vexors used to field 5 ogres, use mwd and orbit with neut and vamps
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
321
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Posted - 2014.10.20 21:15:01 -
[6] - Quote
You should change your title. You talk an awful lot about increasing drone bandwidth, which is kind of the opposite of what your title is claiming. Or are you trying to mislead people? |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2014.10.20 21:52:33 -
[7] - Quote
Drones are primary weapon in some ships, dont try to get a nerf on that. Dominix was always a drone boat, dont try to make it useless.
Also Ishtar is one ship and you posted for only this ship and then you generalize to nerf every single drone boat.
Just dont! |
Valkin Mordirc
319
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Posted - 2014.10.20 21:55:30 -
[8] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:You should change your title. You talk an awful lot about increasing drone bandwidth, which is kind of the opposite of what your title is claiming. Or are you trying to mislead people?
His title is misleading, however what he is proposing is as such,
Cut the drone bandwidth of all Drone oriented ships,
Then introduce mods that increase drone bandwidth.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
16
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Posted - 2014.10.20 22:47:04 -
[9] - Quote
Sorry yes, this is a bit closer to what I meant.
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Owen Levanth wrote:You should change your title. You talk an awful lot about increasing drone bandwidth, which is kind of the opposite of what your title is claiming. Or are you trying to mislead people? His title is misleading, however what he is proposing is as such, Cut the drone bandwidth of all Drone oriented ships, Then introduce mods that increase drone bandwidth.
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Damen Apol
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
69
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Posted - 2014.10.20 23:09:58 -
[10] - Quote
The problem with drones is that Capital ships can alpha frigates off field.
Sentry drones need a looking at. |
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Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
111
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Posted - 2014.10.21 00:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
To make drones effective as a weapon type on the ships that are specifically drone boats you must sacrifice tank/high slots to do so.
Drones without drone damage mods do crap DPS.
Also, drones are a weapon that are able to be destroyed. Fighting an Ishtar? Kill his drones. Fighting a Dominix? You guessed it, kill his drones. Fighting an Armageddon? Oh my, you guessed it, kill his drones.
Drone boats without drones = useless. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
112
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Posted - 2014.10.21 00:35:21 -
[12] - Quote
To make drones effective as a weapon type on the ships that are specifically drone boats you must sacrifice low/high slots to do so.
Drones without drone damage mods do crap DPS.
Also, drones are a weapon that are able to be destroyed. Fighting an Ishtar? Kill his drones. Fighting a Dominix? You guessed it, kill his drones. Fighting an Armageddon? Oh my, you guessed it, kill his drones.
Drone boats without drones = useless. |
Celise Katelo
State War Academy Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2014.10.21 14:03:51 -
[13] - Quote
My Gila thinks this idea is rather silly... |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
585
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Posted - 2014.10.21 14:21:32 -
[14] - Quote
I agree that certain drone/ship combinations need to be looked at (Sentry/Ishtar and Sentry/Carrier come to mind), but I think that a blanket change like you're proposing is far too much to address those limited combinations. Let's not break everything trying to fix a few issues.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
350
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Posted - 2014.10.21 15:11:43 -
[15] - Quote
You to can train drones. |
Bastion Arzi
Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi
134
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Posted - 2014.10.21 15:18:51 -
[16] - Quote
No op
No |
Fret Thiesant
The Imperial LansDrahd LOADED-DICE
53
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Posted - 2014.10.22 12:32:18 -
[17] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:I agree that certain drone/ship combinations need to be looked at (Sentry/Ishtar and Sentry/Carrier come to mind), but I think that a blanket change like you're proposing is far too much to address those limited combinations. Let's not break everything trying to fix a few issues.
The issues with sentries is how well they track not the actual dps numbers imo. The DPS is fine but it's a tad to easy to apply and project.
Anyways yes your idea OP is terrible.
Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. And the Worm goes faster. And uses missiles meaning you can apply full high slot dps from range no matter your speed. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
589
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Posted - 2014.10.22 13:09:50 -
[18] - Quote
Fret Thiesant wrote: The issues with sentries is how well they track not the actual dps numbers imo. The DPS is fine but it's a tad to easy to apply and project.
Venturing slightly off-topic here, but their tracking is only part of the issue. (For those that don't know, sentries have a signature resolution of 400m, which is on par with battleship guns, but much better tracking than battleship guns.) When large groups of ships, especially carriers, order their sentry drones to assist a single ship, that ship is capable of generating a "perfect volley". The alpha strike of every single drone assisting it gets applied at the time time. This makes it much easier to volley ships off of the field in the presence of logistic support. The same number of ships applying damage independently wouldn't be perfectly synchronized so it's less effective, and this doesn't apply to any other drones because of the travel times involved.
Overall, the problem in the current metagame with Ishtars and carriers isn't the hulls per se, it's the fact that such a large number of sentry drones can be made to effectively function as a single weapon.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Arronicus
Bitter Lemons Brothers of Tangra
1178
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Posted - 2014.10.22 16:47:49 -
[19] - Quote
So, you want to massively change the potential damage output of almost all droneboats in the game, when they are finally balanced well, because a couple are projecting damage a little too well with one type of drones? Smooth. Real smooth. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
323
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Posted - 2014.10.22 23:05:59 -
[20] - Quote
There are a couple of things to consider here IMHO:
First is the reduced slots which "drone boats" have, coupled with the perception of high pressure on those slots already in most current fittings (perhaps this is part of the problem - the Meta suggests that, to make Garde IIs viable, you need a minimum of two Omnis (not to mention DDAs and so forth)). Does the proposed reduction "return" those slots? Does it put them where they're needed? or do we fill up a Dominix's lowslots with drone mods and give it an extra high?
Second is the previous experience with drone mods - when Drone Control Units were first on Sisi they had high fitting requirements but they were not limited to capital ships, of course Dominix pilots loaded up... Bandwidth boosting modules might prove very difficult to balance - too much of a boost and they become a mandatory module (and may distinctly unbalance ships which have relatively low bandwidth at present), too little and they're never used.
Third are questions such as what happens if you fit this module to a ship which already has bandwidth equal to its bay? and how does it operate with Guristas ships? (If you boost a Worm to a full flight of lights which are equivalent to about 15 unbonused drones (as I recall) or a Ratttler to running three Geckos).
In general, giving choices to the players is a good thing for marketting but a nightmare for balancing... There are balance issues at present of course - but I don't think this is the way to solve them.
Quote:The problem with drones is that Capital ships can alpha frigates off field. Given the right set-up and circumstances this was possible before Carriers existed, let alone before Slowcats. That is not to suggest that Slowcat fleet doctrines are balanced, desirable...etc - just that the statement is an oversimplification of the situation. |
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Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
62
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Posted - 2014.10.22 23:28:28 -
[21] - Quote
Damen Apol wrote:The problem with drones is that Capital ships can alpha frigates off field.
Sentry drones need a looking at.
so can tornados.
let's cut arty's dps in half.
wtf you guys talking about, come on.
/signed, a frigate pilot
Fret Thiesant wrote:[quote=Bronson Hughes]
Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. And the Worm goes faster. And uses missiles meaning you can apply full high slot dps from range no matter your speed.
Because a worm can fly 2 drones only and your ishkur 5. Because it's not an AF, and because it's generally shield tanked, vs the typical armor brick ishkur. Btw worm is quite slow for a frig. Becaue missile dps on a worm is crap anyway, to the point it generally fits 2 only to save cpu and grid for more important stuff. Because it's a 90 mils hull unlike your ishkur. |
Fret Thiesant
The Imperial LansDrahd LOADED-DICE
54
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Posted - 2014.10.23 10:49:54 -
[22] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Damen Apol wrote:The problem with drones is that Capital ships can alpha frigates off field.
Sentry drones need a looking at. so can tornados. let's cut arty's dps in half. wtf you guys talking about, come on. /signed, a frigate pilot Fret Thiesant wrote:[quote=Bronson Hughes]
Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. And the Worm goes faster. And uses missiles meaning you can apply full high slot dps from range no matter your speed. Because a worm can fly 2 drones only and your ishkur 5. Because it's not an AF, and because it's generally shield tanked, vs the typical armor brick ishkur. Btw worm is quite slow for a frig. Becaue missile dps on a worm is crap anyway, to the point it generally fits 2 only to save cpu and grid for more important stuff. Because it's a 90 mils hull unlike your ishkur.
Price has nothing to do with balance. The other pirate frigs have a major disadvantage to go with their advantage. Worm has a minor disadvantage to go with its major advantages.
I'm sorry I dont see that many Ishkur's. Maybe you do. Maybe you fly them regularly. I don't know. Right now I don't see the advantage to flying one over any other af though. Pretty much any role it can perform another AF can do the same thing much better. Or an Algos.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
592
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Posted - 2014.10.23 11:26:55 -
[23] - Quote
Fret Thiesant wrote:Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. The better question is why a Tristan, a Tristan, gets a drone damage bonus and the Ishkur doesn't.
Ishkur is seriously borked ATM.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
612
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Posted - 2014.10.23 11:49:37 -
[24] - Quote
Bandwidth is fine - but Drone Bays need to be properly considered to be part of the ships 'Fitting'. Drone ships need to be more heavily penalised in terms of CPU/PG in order to balance their offensive abilities. |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
62
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Posted - 2014.10.23 11:53:23 -
[25] - Quote
Fret Thiesant wrote:Doctor Knuckles wrote:Damen Apol wrote:The problem with drones is that Capital ships can alpha frigates off field.
Sentry drones need a looking at. so can tornados. let's cut arty's dps in half. wtf you guys talking about, come on. /signed, a frigate pilot Fret Thiesant wrote:[quote=Bronson Hughes]
Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. And the Worm goes faster. And uses missiles meaning you can apply full high slot dps from range no matter your speed. Because a worm can fly 2 drones only and your ishkur 5. Because it's not an AF, and because it's generally shield tanked, vs the typical armor brick ishkur. Btw worm is quite slow for a frig. Becaue missile dps on a worm is crap anyway, to the point it generally fits 2 only to save cpu and grid for more important stuff. Because it's a 90 mils hull unlike your ishkur. Price has nothing to do with balance. The other pirate frigs have a major disadvantage to go with their advantage. Worm has a minor disadvantage to go with its major advantages. I'm sorry I dont see that many Ishkur's. Maybe you do. Maybe you fly them regularly. I don't know. Right now I don't see the advantage to flying one over any other af though. Pretty much any role it can perform another AF can do the same thing much better. Or an Algos.
Of course price has to do with balance. You can't expect a pirate frig to perform as the rest. It would be like complaining that a comet is superior to a atron, well no ****.
Sorry, but that's at best a problem with the Ishkur, if there even is one. By the way, i consider it a very strong AF, you don't see many of them because it's not suited for AF doctrines, but as a solo boat it's definately top tier among the AFs.
Worm compared to other pirate frigs? Well, the dramiel is in a bad place right now, not worth the price tag most of the time.
Let's look at the others.
- Daredevil. Massive damage, best range control possible with 90% web, decent tank (can get 6.8k ehp easy while keeping mad dps), fast as ****, can be an absolute beastly brawler or kiter. Load void and enjoy 400+ real dps or use rails and sit at 13 shooting at a pretty much stationary target. 10/10
- Succubus. Great range control, can pretty much disengage at will, great dps in scram range, good tank. Drawback? Uhm... vulnerable cap warfare...? Nope, can sit comfortably out of small neuts and non deadspace nos range. Tank? Not really, it's just perfect for what it does and as said if things go south disengaging is quite easy
- Garmur. Do i even need to explain?
- Cruor. Say goodbye to your cap lol.
- Worm. Very good dps, not daredevil tier, but very good, undeniable. Applied dps is lower than when EFT warrioring because drones do miss quite a bit while with turrets and correct piloting you have perfect application. I'd say it's a little mroe than a succubus. Very good tank. Poor range control. Slow unless nanofit, which hinders tank and cap life is pretty terrible without cap booster, which costs a very precious mid
Is the worm scary? **** yes it is, but just as are the other pirate frigs (dram to a lesser extent, as said) if you're in a normal hull |
Fret Thiesant
The Imperial LansDrahd LOADED-DICE
54
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Posted - 2014.10.23 12:39:23 -
[26] - Quote
Again how often do you fly this very strong AF?
I am guessing never. Because a Jag or Hawk or Vengence will do whatever it is you are trying to do in that Ishkur flat out better. For fleets you'd go with an Enyo because it can melt face....
It was a great little boat way back when sure. And I still fly one usually with an odd ball fit every now and than because I like flying odd ball ships. But it needs a rework.
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
323
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Posted - 2014.10.24 11:20:47 -
[27] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Fret Thiesant wrote:Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. The better question is why a Tristan, a Tristan, gets a drone damage bonus and the Ishkur doesn't. Ishkur is seriously borked ATM. It doesn't... It gets a tracking and hitpoints bonus not a damage bonus. (You might wish to argue that a damage application bonus is a damage bonus but...) |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
323
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Posted - 2014.10.24 11:54:53 -
[28] - Quote
Fret Thiesant wrote:Though I would like to know why a ------- Worm gets a drone damage bonus and my Ishkur doesn't. And the Worm goes faster. And uses missiles meaning you can apply full high slot dps from range no matter your speed.
Fret Thiesant wrote:Price has nothing to do with balance. The other pirate frigs have a major disadvantage to go with their advantage. Worm has a minor disadvantage to go with its major advantages. Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2 in many regards, and the Worm is unique among frigates in having an actual drone damage bonus (capable of doing more drone damage that 5 unbonused lights). (IIRC) The Worm lacks the Ishkur's sig bonus - so if it is faster then it's also bigger and easier to hit - and it uses missiles meaning that its own movement has no effect on its applies DPS, though the targets movement arguably has a greater effect (in that it is more difficult to mitigate the target's movement). Price is not a useful balance point - but the materials costs of the Worm is lower than that of the Ishkur... The market price of the ships is the result of the other balance considerations. The supply of Worms is more limited and more directly under CCPs control, the fact that the Worm is a little better than the Ishkur means that demand is higher... The market price is not a restriction but an indicator.
I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about disadvantages though - the Daredevil has 6 guns and a 90% web, the Cruor gets old style Nos... Where's the disadvantage? |
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