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X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.26 12:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.
If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship. A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.
Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.
So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.
My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots. Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.
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Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
197
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Posted - 2011.11.26 12:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
No (a¦á_a¦â) ~ Get Out, Nasty Face ~ (a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â) |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2011.11.26 12:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
This. TBQFH.
If you're worried about cruisers being under utilized (which they are, along with most of the T1 frigates and some of the tier 1 BC's), then you need to lobby for CCP to remove the Tier System and not only boost lots of hulls both stats wise and by rejigging the bonuses to make sure each ship has a role to play.
Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve. |
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.26 12:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve. Say what? Everything in Eve is about isk, and if you take in account total cost of a loss, then especially Tier 2 battlecruisers are massively underpriced compared to the performance they give.
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Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
199
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.
Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ Get Out, Nasty Face ~ (a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â)(a¦á_a¦â) |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yea BCs should totally use rigs that cost almost as much as the hull each.. Wait, no. |
Nex apparatu5
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
79
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
X Mary wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve. Say what? Everything in Eve is about isk, and if you take in account total cost of a loss, then especially Tier 2 battlecruisers are massively underpriced compared to the performance they give. If you've played for a year or two, isk is no longer a limiting factor. |
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.
Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it. Because there's always a movement to bang for your buck and in that aspect battlecruisers get way more then other ships causing them to be overrepresented. Cruisers and battleships would have more uses if this disparity of cost was fixed.
Alternatively give cruisers small rigs and battleships medium rigs if you're concerned about making fun more expensive. This will lead to more diversity and I think that's a good thing.
Nalha Saldana wrote:Yea BCs should totally use rigs that cost almost as much as the hull each.. Wait, no. Why not? If I fit my armageddon the rigs ARE just as expensive as the hull. Why for that ship it's ok and for a BC is not? |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
X Mary wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.
Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it. Because there's always a movement to bang for your buck and in that aspect battlecruisers get way more then other ships causing them to be overrepresented. Cruisers and battleships would have more uses if this disparity of cost was fixed. Alternatively give cruisers small rigs and battleships medium rigs if you're concerned about making fun more expensive. This will lead to more diversity and I think that's a good thing.
Cheap rigged BSs for everyone \o/
(terrible idea) |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
3
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Posted - 2011.11.26 16:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
X Mary wrote: Why not? If I fit my armageddon the rigs ARE just as expensive as the hull.
Than you are doing it wrong. |
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
234
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Posted - 2011.11.26 16:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fix salvage rate so that a select few popular rigs are not vastly overpriced. |
Cerlin
Imperium Technologies F0RCEFUL ENTRY
3
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Posted - 2011.11.26 17:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
IF you think they are overpriced, make your own rigs and take advantage of the market. This game is all about supply and demand, its not the manufacturers fault if everyone wants to buy the same rigs.
Edit: I think the OP's Idea is terrible too. Battlecruisers are popular not just because of the price, but because they can hit all the subcap chassis' very well. That is what they should do. |
Aesiron
Squadron 1
16
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Posted - 2011.11.26 18:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Mary wrote:A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.
If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship. A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.
Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.
So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.
My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots. Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.
No no no no no no. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
46
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Posted - 2011.11.26 23:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
A rigged cruiser costs 20M isk more or less, a rigged BC costs 60-70M isk. I'm ignoring insurance here, this is just the upfront cost. Seems pretty balanced to me. The problem is players are just too rich, BC's are the new t1 frig. |
Majuan Shuo
Sons Of 0din
4
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Posted - 2011.11.26 23:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
What is this I don't even "I believe the Winter expansion needs to be a huge success, and so they are giving us ice cream, and cake, and ice cream cake, and pizza, and hookers, and blow, and pizza. Any and everything they think players want and they can do by winter, they will stuff into this expansion." |
Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
102
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Posted - 2011.11.26 23:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rig prices are not uniform, thus this is not a valid balancing discussion. My BS's are often fit witih weapon rigs which are cheaper than the BC level buffer rigs I typically use - this makes my BS's cost about on par with my BC's, ergo BC's should clear be cheaper, rite? |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
238
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cerlin wrote:IF you think they are overpriced, make your own rigs and take advantage of the market. This game is all about supply and demand, its not the manufacturers fault if everyone wants to buy the same rigs.
Edit: I think the OP's Idea is terrible too. Battlecruisers are popular not just because of the price, but because they can hit all the subcap chassis' very well. That is what they should do.
Genius, it's the salvage price.
Margins for armor rigs are even lower than less used rigs. It has to do with salvage drop table. Armor plates, for example, drops less than electronic, but trimarks are in far greater demand than cpu/ewar rigs, thus the price imbalance. The drop table is arbitrarily determined by CCP, thus, players cannot change supply. |
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:Rig prices are not uniform, thus this is not a valid balancing discussion. My BS's are often fit witih weapon rigs which are cheaper than the BC level buffer rigs I typically use - this makes my BS's cost about on par with my BC's, ergo BC's should clear be cheaper, rite? If rigs are so cheap it doesn't matter then this change wouldn't hurt anyone. If however rigprices are a big factor in deciding what ship to field then this change is also valid. Going by your argument, there's no reason not to implement this. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
490
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Posted - 2011.11.27 00:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
You have to look at the difference.
Batllecruisers vs Cruisers
Slightly Slower A Bit less Scan Res Larger Sig Rad
Vs
More DPS More Slots Double the Capacitor without much extra Cap use Better fitting per Module Much more Tank Always a full Drone bay Cheap Rigs and insurance
Now the extra slots mean they can fit Sebo's and Nano's while still maintaining more tank so there goes the pretty much the Speed and Scan Res disadvantage. Especially the Nano Cane which can move faster then most non Minmatar Cruisers.
Then look at how different the Tier System effects them. The Logi Cruisers are all terrible at being Logi Cruisers. Two of the EWAR Cruisers are good, one of them is a combat Cruiser. The last two don't have much going for them. The lower Tier Combat Cruiser are Terrible like the Omen and Stabber or passable like the AML Caracal and Vexor. Then Tier 3 you have the Moa and Maller w/o Dmg Bonuses which shows, Thorax is going to be better this winter but not by much and the Rupture is Ok. Cruisers bonuses, slot layout and stats are often poorly thought for there tasks so they don't get much use even in there Niche.
The problem is not cost it is roles. Battlecruisers right now are essentially Way, Way, Better Cruisers. If Cruisers are to return they need to be able to do things Battlecruisers can not. They don't have to be better at Combat but they should be able to do it differently.
Cruisers need a Rebalance of Roles. |
Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
48
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Posted - 2011.11.27 02:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Small rigs: Frigates, Destroyers Medium rigs: Cruisers, Battlecruisers Large rigs: Battleships, Capital Ships
Op needs to think before posting. |
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X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
8
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Posted - 2011.11.27 03:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arthur Frayn wrote:Small rigs: Frigates, Destroyers Medium rigs: Cruisers, Battlecruisers Large rigs: Battleships, Capital Ships
Op needs to think before posting. OP thought and came to the conclusion this list is bad. |
Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2011.11.27 04:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
X Mary wrote:OP thought and came to the conclusion this list is bad.
Op is an idiot. |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
7
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Posted - 2011.11.27 09:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Don't let me burst your bubble, but plenty of people were fitting rigs to BCs back in the day when there were no rig sizes. |
Khors
El Barco Pirata
24
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Posted - 2011.11.27 10:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
I prefer the cheap prices on battlecruisers. It encourages people to suicide them into battleship fleets, which is massive fun for the battleships. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2011.11.27 10:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Don't let me burst your bubble, but plenty of people were fitting rigs to BCs back in the day when there were no rig sizes.
This is true, people are hilarious if they think all BS sized rigs are as expensive as the trimark and extender rigs and probably have no idea how rigging on BCs was done back in the days. Weapon and speed rigs where quite common and not more expensive as medium extender or trimarks now.
The idea of the OP however isn't this bad actually since it somewhat fixes the very big performance/price difference between tier 2 BCs and HACs or BS. In the long run it might help cruisers since not every BC will be trimarked/extender rig fitted, to make the EHP difference not this big and gives people that use the more expensive rigs on her BC the actual advantage back, that they had before they became so cheap that everybody fitted them all the time.
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CanonMP180
8
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Posted - 2011.11.27 12:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
If isk is an issue then fly cheap and cheerful ships like the blackbird, rupture, thorax, or a surprise augoror. I especially recommend the Blackbird, it punches well above it's weight and costs peanuts and is fun to fly. I see the point you're trying to make about isk progression, but people mainly fly BC's because they hit a sweet spot between all the attributes and are so versatile rather than their cost.
Show your support!-á Dislike button for the EvE forums proposal |
Comptroller Oumis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.28 19:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Don't let me burst your bubble, but plenty of people were fitting rigs to BCs back in the day when there were no rig sizes.
I recently purchased an Omen Navy Issue from a contract and it was fitted with 2 Large Capacitor Control Circuits which I thought was odd but I guess it was fitted before the restrictions were in place?
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2011.11.28 20:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Might be a am-musing way to NERF battledresses I suppose. |
Lord Drokoth
DARKNESS RISING. IMPERIAL LEGI0N
3
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Posted - 2011.11.29 05:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
X Mary wrote:A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.
If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship. A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.
Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.
So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.
My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots. Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.
NO
The end Fail idea |
Captain Kezef Baal
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.26 23:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
ok, I am a relatively new player but I played extensively a few years ago. but to my point
Drakes are amazing, no discussion need for that
it costs about 30mil-32milion a pop for the hull plus another 10mil-15million for equipment and Riggs all together it has a price tag of 40mil-47million without insurance with the later being the most likely with current market conditions
while on the other hand the Caracal is a simple cruiser, or as every one thought
they go for about 4million a pop equipment and rigs is really gunna go for about 8mil-12million mostly from the rigs giving you a total cost of about 12mil-16million a pop before insurance
when you look at this cost difference you realize that, in terms of cost, a BC is actually worse than than it's equivalent cost of cruisers because those three cruisers if equipped they way I would equip them would be about 15 million each and that includes 5 heavy missile launchers per cruiser. so at 15 million a pop you can have 3 cruisers for the cost of 1 battle cruiser. and be honest with yourself what is going to win? the three cruisers with 15 total heavy missiles launchers? or the Drake with it's 7?
the point of the battle cruiser is to allow a player to invest power fire power with themselves without pay a small fortune for a battle ship. also
with a large enough corporation cost does not really mean much, but for players like myself, that extra 30million is harder to come by.
so it would be pointless to nerf battle cruisers because they are already balanced |
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