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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
154
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Posted - 2014.10.23 21:40:03 -
[1] - Quote
I think it is high time that we got a new set of battleships.
The Minmatar and Gallante could use a disruption battleship comparable to the Scorpion and Geddon. A minmatar battleship with long webs or TPs and missiles would be a really cool ship as it emphasizes the EWAR needed to actually make battleship missiles useful in PVP while carrying its own missiles. Similarly, a Gallante battleship with a sensor dampener bonus would be a really interesting and powerful ship, able to dictate engagement range against the average gang.
The amarr need a real Attack battlecruiser, as the geddon, with its neuts, is much more of a disruption battleship than an attack battleship. I propose that this be named the Reckoning or the Judgement. It would also be nice to have a single Amarr battleship with 5 mids.
Caldari seriously need a combat battleship which focuses on missiles and tank, as the rokh, raven and scorpion are so different from one another as to seem to come from different worlds (or mega-corps.....). I propose this ship be called the Cockatrice.
Basic number crunching to follow later.
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Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2014.10.23 21:46:14 -
[2] - Quote
I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.
The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.
Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
154
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Posted - 2014.10.23 21:50:16 -
[3] - Quote
Daoden wrote:I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.
The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.
Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.
Those two are there more to round out my current idea than because I see a need for them, and I would also be more than willing to support a 2nd minmatar combat battleship rather than an EWAR battleship for them.
The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
383
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Posted - 2014.10.23 22:40:20 -
[4] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:...The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles.
So like a weaker Navy Scorpion and an Apocalypse with stronger armor tank at the expanse of mobility that is not an Abbadon with 5 medium slots?
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
155
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Posted - 2014.10.23 22:50:34 -
[5] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:James Baboli wrote:...The two I really care about out of this batch (though am least likely to fly) are the Amarr Attack battleship, especially if it had 5 mids so as to have the slightest possibility of shield tanking it with a prop mod, and the Caldari Combat battleship with missiles. So like a weaker Navy Scorpion and an Apocalypse with stronger armor tank at the expanse of mobility that is not an Abbadon with 5 medium slots? A weaker navy scorpion, though maybe with a moderate velocity bonus and explosion radius or explosion velocity bonus in place of the tank bonus. The apoc really seems to fill the niche of combat battleship to me, with it being the higher damage ship in the lineup, while retaining a fairly deep reserve of EHP and relatively low speed. I would like to see something with 6 or 7 guns in 7 highs and a slightly larger damage bonus than on the current laser hulls, while running 6-7 lows and 5 mids, with right around 6.5k base armor, and 6.2k base shield, and a base velocity of 126m/s and an agility to mass ratio that puts align at 17s before skills.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
517
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Posted - 2014.10.23 22:58:55 -
[6] - Quote
Daoden wrote:I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.
The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.
Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe.
That and while the grass may look greener....the benefits of the scorpion isn't all that. CCP gimps it a little from the other caldari BS'. Many have tried to make even pve scorpions and failed for even basic belt ratting (and that's just kill 3 bs and its couple frig/cruiser escorts). The base for a good pve ride just not there except maybe on widow for covert cyno hops to blink out if system gets too hot if so inclined.....but that gets fatigue tacked on soon.
And when seen say hello to instant primary. Now in the old days the latter wasn't so bad. But in these days scorps were a like 70-80 mil base hull price. Cheap thrill rides really.
The ecm burst while a nice bonus is one often not used. Its best used in a "suicidal" mindset imo. Best use of them is to have the pilot say screw it, warp right into the enemy cluster and burst. Then gtfo (if they can) and do it again (until the run that kills them happens). In this way ccp has some balance. Scorpions best feature requires it to jump right into the lion's den as it were often unsupported.
I'd see this same tradeoff to others. Sure we'll give you damps....but that gallente BS will have to be right on top of them to apply it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
179
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Posted - 2014.10.23 23:21:50 -
[7] - Quote
strange how two races have attack BBs and two have some form of support BBs it's almost like all races are not meant to be the same... |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
155
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Posted - 2014.10.23 23:24:41 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:strange how two races have attack BBs and two have some form of support BBs it's almost like all races are not meant to be the same... And this continues to be somewhat the case under said proposal, especially with edge cases like the Apoc being more of a combat battleship than some combat battleships, and the typhoon being more of an attack battleship than the Apoc, and so on. Once again, more thorough number crunching coming soonGäó.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
383
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Posted - 2014.10.24 01:19:56 -
[9] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Daoden wrote:I don't think we need more ewar battleships. The geddon unlike its smaller counterparts can make use of the large nuets and vamps where the cruiser sized vessels cannot use the large versions without significant loss to another area.
The Scorpion is the only ship with a bonus to ECM Bursts, which requires being right on top of your enemies to use, which thus requires a lot more tank to last long enough to use it.
Sensor damps, webs, target painters, and disruptors can be used very effectively with cruiser hull made for them and there is no reason why a battleship sized hull would be required like for the nuets/vamps and ECM. If they added a module that did have higher fitting requirements or something that would require short range on your enemies then maybe. That and while the grass may look greener....the benefits of the scorpion isn't all that. CCP gimps it a little from the other caldari BS'. Many have tried to make even pve scorpions and failed for even basic belt ratting (and that's just kill 3 bs and its couple frig/cruiser escorts). The base for a good pve ride just not there except maybe on widow for covert cyno hops to blink out if system gets too hot if so inclined.....but that gets fatigue tacked on soon. And when seen say hello to instant primary. Now in the old days the latter wasn't so bad. But in these days scorps were a like 70-80 mil base hull price. Cheap thrill rides really. The ecm burst while a nice bonus is one often not used. Its best used in a "suicidal" mindset imo. Best use of them is to have the pilot say screw it, warp right into the enemy cluster and burst. Then gtfo (if they can) and do it again (until the run that kills them happens). In this way ccp has some balance. Scorpions best feature requires it to jump right into the lion's den as it were often unsupported. I'd see this same tradeoff to others. Sure we'll give you damps....but that gallente BS will have to be right on top of them to apply it.
makes me feel bad in a way because not too long before I installed my EVE client the first time, the Scorpion used to be the hybrid turret boat. (The Rokh was added later with the other tier 3 battleships)
The Scorpion also happens to be my "first". She died horribly in a "Duo of Death" in February 2007..
While I like the Blackbird - and yes I always loved that hull- the Scorpion as a "bigger Blackbird" doesn't feel like a battleship to me. When the battleship rebalance came, I asked for another turret slot or launcher slot, everyone asked for low to put a plate into.
She still doesn't "feel" right.
Ah the Widow..
Being a "bigger Falcon or Rook with a cloak and a jumpdrive/portal" looked nice in the proposal but the "not quite a battlecruiser" size of hp did raise some questions. Several nerfs to ECM made her even weaker as she was when she hit TQ. I also get that noone likes to get jammed but nowadays no Gecko or sentry drone cares about that. But let's not talk Blackops for now.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
159
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Posted - 2014.10.24 02:46:57 -
[10] - Quote
The first two ship stats are posted now. In general, they should be fairly close to the current power curve, but slightly above it, as I am also pushing a buff to BS performance on grid.
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Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
159
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Posted - 2014.10.24 05:11:13 -
[11] - Quote
I'd like to see baseline battleships made more useful before new changes are made. Maybe make bastion module usable by any BS hull, and while they're at it re-do the marauders into extentions of the assault frigate/HAC line. I'd love to see a khanid battleship. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
161
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Posted - 2014.10.24 06:52:54 -
[12] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I'd like to see baseline battleships made more useful before new ships are made. Maybe make bastion module usable by any BS hull, and while they're at it re-do the marauders into extentions of the assault frigate/HAC line. I'd love to see a khanid battleship. I have another thread going up for that soon, but it is based around more native buffer and better and application for these ships.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1950
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 07:03:58 -
[13] - Quote
the cockatrice has 20 slots, and more dps and tank than god...
fly caldari much?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Luwc
Brodozers Inc.
253
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Posted - 2014.10.24 07:04:33 -
[14] - Quote
a) you are wrong in so many points b) no.
-1
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
162
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Posted - 2014.10.24 16:36:55 -
[15] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:the cockatrice has 20 slots, and more dps and tank than god...
fly caldari much?
I keep hearing that battleships aren't worth it in PVP. In general, those numbers were pulled from a rokh and mildly tweaked, and while it has the slots, it doesn't have the CPU to fill all those slots base, with a lower CPU to slot ratio than almost any other caldari ship, while using launchers which are CPU heavier than turrets for both the launchers and the BCS, and also the tank.
That said, I'm probably going to tweak it slightly as feedback comes in.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1831
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Posted - 2014.10.24 16:51:14 -
[16] - Quote
First ccp need to focus on the current battleships taht are crap
Tempest ( has no reason to be, typhoon maelstrom, geddon all took its former roles and do it better than the tempest)
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
Abaddon : lost its reason to be when its resists were nerfed. It has less EHP than the cheapest of the navy battleships, so its old role is no more. CCP could nerf a bit some other aspects and push its resistances back to 5% per level as an exception to the rule.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
162
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Posted - 2014.10.24 16:53:12 -
[17] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:First ccp need to focus on the current battleships taht are crap
Tempest ( has no reason to be, typhoon maelstrom, geddon all took its former roles and do it better than the tempest)
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
Abaddon : lost its reason to be when its resists were nerfed. It has less EHP than the cheapest of the navy battleships, so its old role is no more. CCP could nerf a bit some other aspects and push its resistances back to 5% per level as an exception to the rule.
I mostly agree with this, and would strongly support almost any proposal to buff the subpar battleships, and maybe bring the current battleships and CBCs up 5-15% in effectiveness overall.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
341
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Posted - 2014.10.24 17:02:25 -
[18] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for.
Perfect skills before modules Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff
EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875
Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1831
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Posted - 2014.10.24 17:20:27 -
[19] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for. Perfect skills before modules Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875 Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good.
Completely irrelevant (well almsot irrelevant) on modern eve battlefield. You are NOT safe from lots of firepower and sicne youa re not mobile a falcon has more chance to keep 50 km range than the scorpion.
When was the last time you saw scorpiuons beign used by the side that did not lose?
THey are horrible right now. Just get a single mega in your fleet with a EcCm and a MJD and get on top of the scorpion and obliterate it. IT will nto escape and the scorpion fleet lost a ship for NOTHING.. in SECONDS.
Mobility and cloack are FAR FAR more powerful than 50 km more optimal.... So the falcon woudl still be better if both had SAME ecm strneght.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
162
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Posted - 2014.10.24 17:58:53 -
[20] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for. Perfect skills before modules Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875 Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good. Completely irrelevant (well almsot irrelevant) on modern eve battlefield. You are NOT safe from lots of firepower and sicne youa re not mobile a falcon has more chance to keep 50 km range than the scorpion. When was the last time you saw scorpiuons beign used by the side that did not lose? THey are horrible right now. Just get a single mega in your fleet with a EcCm and a MJD and get on top of the scorpion and obliterate it. IT will nto escape and the scorpion fleet lost a ship for NOTHING.. in SECONDS. Mobility and cloack are FAR FAR more powerful than 50 km more optimal.... So the falcon woudl still be better if both had SAME ecm strneght.
But in the case of boasting something resembling a tank or being a one shot wonder, the scorpion is great. dropping one with an ECM burst into the heart of a fleet which is trying to evac is great for breaking large sections of the tackle, they can hold down more t1 targets easily, etc.
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
35
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:13:19 -
[21] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I'd like to see baseline battleships made more useful before new ships are made. Maybe make bastion module usable by any BS hull, and while they're at it re-do the marauders into extentions of the assault frigate/HAC line. I'd love to see a khanid battleship.
If you wanna discuss Battleships and the supposed semi rarity or usefullness, the core problem is COST
Cost to fly and cost to manufacture i see are the biggest blocks in seeing more battleships in pvp environment. Yea, the mission runners will be useing them alot, but they dont loose ships all that often and tend to focus on specific ships for that.
From an industrial point of view. I can manufacture 400 to 500ish frigates for what it takes to make 1 battleship. And make decent profit as well. That, in my opinion, is one of the bigger bottlenecks in me produceing battlecruiser and battleship sized ships. I will continue to mass produce frigates and destroyers and limited cruiser lines. Will only make battlecruiser+ by special request from friends.
Just looking at Tritanium requirement Kestrel = 15,681 tritanium Raven = 9,356,854 tritanium
Thats 596 Kestrels for 1 raven, Kestrels sell for 300k give or take, Raven sell for 150m give or take
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
137
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:41:08 -
[22] - Quote
No.
Why? Because I'm doing alright in my Paladin which took me 120 days to train for, and it's large t2 guns 70 days and 20 days for it's armor ^_^ |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1950
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 02:43:44 -
[23] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:the cockatrice has 20 slots, and more dps and tank than god...
fly caldari much? I keep hearing that battleships aren't worth it in PVP. In general, those numbers were pulled from a rokh and mildly tweaked, and while it has the slots, it doesn't have the CPU to fill all those slots base, with a lower CPU to slot ratio than almost any other caldari ship, while using launchers which are CPU heavier than turrets for both the launchers and the BCS, and also the tank. That said, I'm probably going to tweak it slightly as feedback comes in.
well drop a slot at least then. All non-drone boat T1 BS's have 19 slots. but really, comparing that cockatrice to the raven, why fly a raven? for the utility mid?
it also has enough CPU with a single Co processor for 8 T2 torp launchers, 3 BCS, an X-large anc shield booster, 2x invuln fields, a T2 long point a T2 web a T2 damage control a meta 100mn MWD
and still has a spare low that could fit a 4th BCS if i wasnt being stupid with my mid slots or, christ, fit with cruise launchers.
Counter proposal Cockatrice: (not my actual proposal for a new BS, but merely a suggestion to not **** all over the raven so much)
Combat BS 8/6/5 8/4
5% kinetic damage to torps, cruise and heavy missiles 5% reduction missile explosion radius
P.S. battleships get used in station camp PvP. i guess they dont get used else where because of a combination of mobility, resist profile and damage application issues.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1950
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Posted - 2014.10.25 02:59:08 -
[24] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
Just looking at Tritanium requirement Kestrel = 15,681 tritanium Raven = 9,356,854 tritanium
Thats 596 Kestrels for 1 raven, Kestrels sell for 300k give or take, Raven sell for 150m give or take
what you've done there is look at one mineral...there are seven and the proportion of trit compared to other minerals does not scale proportionally with size.
a Kestrel is <65% trit a Raven is 75% trit
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
166
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Posted - 2014.10.25 03:43:30 -
[25] - Quote
Cockatrice nerfed somewhat (have not changed bonuses, I am happy with the damage, especially as it will suffer more from overkill in PvE and inability to switch targets as well in PvP) and added the Dervish, the minmatar Ewar battleship proposal, focusing on webs and paints, with the possibility of 6 unbonused lauchers or 5 unbonused turrets and a heavy ewar load.
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
35
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Posted - 2014.10.25 04:39:52 -
[26] - Quote
yea, i used tritanium, but fact still remains i can build 500+ kestrel for what takes to build 1 raven |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
166
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Posted - 2014.10.25 05:09:21 -
[27] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:yea, i used tritanium, but fact still remains i can build 500+ kestrel for what takes to build 1 raven And with the right fit, I can kill all 500 of them at once. Price is not the only balancing factor.
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Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1834
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Posted - 2014.10.25 08:03:05 -
[28] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Scorpion (need to have STRONGER ECM Than falcon, not the toher way around. THe falcon already have the cloak as advantage
It's not only about the strength of the ECM, it's also about the range you can jam from, which the scorpion is far superior for. Perfect skills before modules Falcon - 43+48 optimal/falloff Scorpion - 97+108 optimal/falloff EDIT: This means at 91 km, the falcon has an effective jam strength of 5.625 vs the scorpions 7.875 Cloaks and ECM strength is great, but once you get on grid, if you cannot stay on grid because you get primaried, you are not doing your fleet a whole lot of good. Completely irrelevant (well almsot irrelevant) on modern eve battlefield. You are NOT safe from lots of firepower and sicne youa re not mobile a falcon has more chance to keep 50 km range than the scorpion. When was the last time you saw scorpiuons beign used by the side that did not lose? THey are horrible right now. Just get a single mega in your fleet with a EcCm and a MJD and get on top of the scorpion and obliterate it. IT will nto escape and the scorpion fleet lost a ship for NOTHING.. in SECONDS. Mobility and cloack are FAR FAR more powerful than 50 km more optimal.... So the falcon woudl still be better if both had SAME ecm strneght. But in the case of boasting something resembling a tank or being a one shot wonder, the scorpion is great. dropping one with an ECM burst into the heart of a fleet which is trying to evac is great for breaking large sections of the tackle, they can hold down more t1 targets easily, etc.
You realize how dumb sounds to waste the ships bonuses for only 1 of them work? Scorpoin needs tohave at least same ECMstr than falcon. The falconitself isbearely used nowadays.
Therarest battleships insmaller scale combat ( I do nto care for blobs, on those the battleshisp do not need a role, they need ehp and damage projectiononly) the rarest battleships are the scoprion , tempest and abaddon. The tempest shoudl simply get a 7th turret if it sso hard for ccp to even listen one fo the severalgreat options the communitybrouht up.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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eliminator2
Moretsu pirates
16
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Posted - 2014.10.25 10:08:06 -
[29] - Quote
the only thing i want to see is caldari getting a "decent" missiles t1 battleship that can hold its own in fights
not hybird and shield not projectile and shield not laser and shield missiles and shield thats good
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.25 18:42:03 -
[30] - Quote
eliminator2 wrote:the only thing i want to see is caldari getting a "decent" missiles t1 battleship that can hold its own in fights
not hybird and shield not projectile and shield not laser and shield missiles and shield thats good
Take a look at the cockatrice proposal. It ends up with slightly more DPS than a raven as well as tank similar to, if not better than a rokh, and is missiles and shields as a combat battleship.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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