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Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
85
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:20:57 -
[1] - Quote
Firstly I'm posting from my phone so please excuse my formatting. For those of you who haven't seen the presentation I'll give a quick recap. Essentially you create a character and once that character is podded he is deleted. The character is always suspect and his pod has an align time. The plus side is this character doesn't have a skill queue. Instead you are allocated a certain amount of sp which you can assign instantly. Before everyone freaks out, THIS WAS JUST AN IDEA AND ISNT BEING IMPLEMENTED INTO THE GAME. Rise had talked about the challenge about figuring out a balance for how many skillpoints to give these permadeath characters. My suggestion is that you connect the amount of skill points to an achievement system. Every permadeath character starts with 5million skill points. After killing x amount of rats, mining x amount of minerals you are awarded an additional 5 million. As the skill points increase so do the difficulty of the achievements. At 10 million you now need a PvP kill for an achievement. At 20 million you need to kill x amount of Mordus Legion rats in lowsec belts. 25 million you need a solo PvP kill of a cruiser or higher. These obviously are just examples and need to be reworked, but you get the idea. It would be great to stream these adventures on twitch and can open Eve up to a brand new group of players! Can you guys get behind this idea or are there any concerns you'd have? |
Paranoid Loyd
2385
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:23:59 -
[2] - Quote
Lol, suspects mining.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite
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Leonard Nimoy II
Dark Force Protectorate Special Operators Federation Alliance
31
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:29:22 -
[3] - Quote
I would be really happy if CCP did not mess with the SP system (which has the potential to be game-ruining) and thought about fixing things like the bounty system first
One consideration for this - if this is a serious idea, death means nothing since you could immediately make a new character with identical SP allocation under the proposed system. The proposed idea was to make being podded mean something, but if you can instantly make a new identical char, it's not a real thing.
The SP system is pretty well refined as it is.....
EDIT: To be clear I'm not having a go at your post. I'm just saying if CCP wants to make this real without taking extreme care I should prepare to buy elite dangerous. |
Iain Cariaba
551
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:34:54 -
[4] - Quote
Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
137
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't see how this brings any content to the game... To me it seems like the same logic behind a burner phone. |
Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
85
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Posted - 2014.10.24 18:54:33 -
[6] - Quote
Well I'm sure you can't have a skill queue running while having a permadeath character active. And this is just an option. Your current character would not be affected. Your beloved skill queue wont be touched. Rise had said it would only appeal to about 5% of players. However that means 5% of the player base is constantly suspect. That adds plenty of content. Mining as a suspect is a bucket of lulz. That's what makes the achievement difficult. Most games have a hardcore mode. Why not eve. |
Iain Cariaba
551
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Posted - 2014.10.24 19:21:33 -
[7] - Quote
Endo Saissore wrote:Most games have a hardcore mode. Why not eve. Because EvE is not most games. EvE is the hardcore mode of MMOs.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.24 19:31:18 -
[8] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Endo Saissore wrote:Most games have a hardcore mode. Why not eve. Because EvE is not most games. EvE is the hardcore mode of MMOs. I agree that that Eve is the hardcore mode of MMOs. That's why I love it. But imagine if there was a mode that made it even harder, with leaderboards. Having 200 kills is even more impressive under permadeath stipulations. It encourages players to undock. It also adds a bit of "I only have half an hour" gameplay to Eve. Its not a playstyle for the majority of players, but it will add content for everyone. You think it feels good podding someone with expensive implants? Imagine podding a permadeath player. That is true Eve risk. |
Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.24 19:45:16 -
[9] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts. Dont get hung up on the skill point numbers. Each new person could start out with 500k skillpoints if that's a concern. Then the achievements would be a little different for such low skillpoints. Instead look at the overall idea. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
853
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Posted - 2014.10.24 20:14:50 -
[10] - Quote
So HTFU mode. lel. Stay out of nulsec and w-space. Or make their pods bubble-proof.
"Remember remember the 4th of November!"
Phoebe. Coming soon to Eve Online.
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Iain Cariaba
554
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Posted - 2014.10.24 20:15:32 -
[11] - Quote
Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts. Dont get hung up on the skill point numbers. Each new person could start out with 500k skillpoints if that's a concern. Then the achievements would be a little different for such low skillpoints. Instead look at the overall idea. Yeah, the overall idea is still bad, and still violates CCP's rules on disposable ganking alts. The highsec carebears already throw fits over an imagined problem with disposable alts, having an official system to encourage disposable alts would maje them explode.
On second thought, the tear flood from the carebears might be worth endorsing this idea.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.24 20:21:31 -
[12] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:So HTFU mode. lel. Stay out of nulsec and w-space. Or make their pods bubble-proof. That's an interesting point. The trade off of bubble immunity is 1 or 2 second align time? This way HTFU players will still venture into null and wh? |
Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.24 20:26:06 -
[13] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts. Dont get hung up on the skill point numbers. Each new person could start out with 500k skillpoints if that's a concern. Then the achievements would be a little different for such low skillpoints. Instead look at the overall idea. Yeah, the overall idea is still bad, and still violates CCP's rules on disposable ganking alts. The highsec carebears already throw fits over an imagined problem with disposable alts, having an official system to encourage disposable alts would maje them explode. On second thought, the tear flood from the carebears might be worth endorsing this idea.
There is the concern of that happening. What if the progression to a permadeath character took a bit? Like the achievement to get a catalyst gank capable alt took a PvP kill? Or one of the achievements included lowsec belt ratting. So gankers weigh the option of buying sec tags or using skill to have a ganker burn alt. |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2014.10.24 21:00:11 -
[14] - Quote
I would like to see this done as another asset (considering you can lose it like ships, modules, anything in your cargo, ect). Something you can cultivate and lose.
This could give a new indy path and would fit with the lore well enough. Science groups could use various resources and even PI materials to improve and cultivate clones. This would give them better skill points, more skill areas, ability for players to choose how to allocate skill points (starter clones would likely have preset skills/skill levels)
These characters could be bought and sold via contracts in game and their character sheet would be their info tab allowing you to see what kind of character and what kind of stats you would be purchasing. Once received you could use it like a plex and the character would appear in your characters tab.
This would give them a loss value and a trade value keeping with eve's player build economy as well as making them a strategic asset, allowing players to store these perma-death clones as a sort of interceptor or initial response group and not just a one time, leader board race character.
They could then be used to buy time, or run deep into enemy territory on a suicide run. It also opens up for groups to make mistakes. Sending a force that can actually be wiped out would delay reinforcements to an area making escalations more dangerous if the FC chose to fly with perma-death characters over capsuleer characters.
As for restrictions, they would really have to be combat oriented to prevent abuse in industry or market trading. But then there is still ganking. If these are a capsuleer project only going on in null or low then I would assume seeing them in high sec would be rare, making them red characters or at the very least always suspect while in HS and constantly hunted down by faction police or illiciting an immediate response from CONCORD regardless of the security of the space in high sec. (the logic being that CONCORD is keeping a very VERY close eye on these individuals were as they have to just generally get their eye open for any capsuleer that might go rouge in HS)
That would be my hope for these kinds of characters. I don't know how truely viable or wanted it would be, but it would certainly be interesting.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
383
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Posted - 2014.10.24 21:31:27 -
[15] - Quote
Endo Saissore wrote: ...Most games have a hardcore mode. Why not eve.
EVE "hardcore / nightmare / hell" mode = solo pvp in low / null / wh
signature
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Mharius Skjem
Republic University Minmatar Republic
26
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Posted - 2014.10.24 22:27:10 -
[16] - Quote
Make sure that permadeath characters can't transfer their isk or stuff to other characters, so that when they die the loss is meaningful.
I'll undock and hunt them all day long.
******* pest control.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
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Galphii
The Order of Solar Enlightenment
282
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Posted - 2014.10.24 22:50:52 -
[17] - Quote
I'm getting the distinct impression this 'permadeath' idea is less about the death, and more about allowing people to get into the ships they want to fly quickly via 'plugin skill packs'. It may be in response to other space game's no-skill system (i.e. player skill only) where you can get what you want, so long as you have the money.
In this age of instant gratification, waiting weeks and months to fly a certain ship while the skill trains may well be offputting for some players. The ability to fly any ship is something that currently needs to be earned. Once you're a veteran of several years, you can just get into practically any ship at a whim. Granting this ability to new players is an intriguing prospect.
I don't see this 'breaking' eve, or being unfair to veteran players, since a player needs skill to pilot said ships - this is to differentiate from *character* skills, which simply make some of the important numbers better.
Take flying a 'dictor for example. It can take weeks to get the skills to fly one of these ships, but much longer for a player to figure out the best way to use them. This prinicple applies to most ships in eve, to a greater or lesser extent.
Although the 'tiericide' initiative has been applied to ships and now beginning to be felt on modules, the skill system is very much tiered. Waiting 6 months to fly a carrier is effectively saying 'you need to be level 50 to use this ship', if you get my meaning.
Perhaps a better way to apply this principle is to reduce the skill requirements for ships and modules to 1. You'd still need the skill books, you'd still need to raise your skills up to get better with the ship, you'd still need the money to fly the ship, and you'd still need the player's know-how to fly the ship well. All it'd do is reduce the training time to something far less, freeing newer players so they can get into the ship and style of playing they want sooner, while still needing to train the relevant skills to be truly good with that ship.
Things like weapon specialisations and industry skills would be unchanged, but hulls could certainly be freed up.
X
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Paranoid Loyd
2386
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Posted - 2014.10.24 22:58:10 -
[18] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right? 2 million is more than sufficient.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite
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Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.25 00:20:02 -
[19] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right? 2 million is more than sufficient. I started ganking indy's with less the 1 million but the list of suitable targets was limited to Iteron, Bestower or Mammoth and it had to be anti-tanked. I forgot to mention Rise said it would cost a PLEX to start one of these characters. So that would dissuade gankers. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
51
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Posted - 2014.10.25 01:45:56 -
[20] - Quote
I can see some advantage to a low or null player where the perma suspect flag is not a concern but beyond that what use would they be considering the cost? |
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
570
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Posted - 2014.10.25 02:45:04 -
[21] - Quote
Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts. Dont get hung up on the skill point numbers. Each new person could start out with 500k skillpoints if that's a concern. Then the achievements would be a little different for such low skillpoints. Instead look at the overall idea. Yeah, the overall idea is still bad, and still violates CCP's rules on disposable ganking alts. The highsec carebears already throw fits over an imagined problem with disposable alts, having an official system to encourage disposable alts would maje them explode. On second thought, the tear flood from the carebears might be worth endorsing this idea. There is the concern of that happening. What if the progression to a permadeath character took a bit? Like the achievement to get a catalyst gank capable alt took a PvP kill? Or one of the achievements included lowsec belt ratting. So gankers weigh the option of buying sec tags or using skill to have a ganker burn alt.
So I kill my alt and get around your silly restriction.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
944
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Posted - 2014.10.25 02:55:58 -
[22] - Quote
Galphii wrote:I'm getting the distinct impression this 'permadeath' idea is less about the death, and more about allowing people to get into the ships they want to fly quickly via 'plugin skill packs'. It may be in response to other space game's no-skill system (i.e. player skill only) where you can get what you want, so long as you have the money.
In this age of instant gratification, waiting weeks and months to fly a certain ship while the skill trains may well be offputting for some players. The ability to fly any ship is something that currently needs to be earned. Once you're a veteran of several years, you can just get into practically any ship at a whim. Granting this ability to new players is an intriguing prospect.
I don't see this 'breaking' eve, or being unfair to veteran players, since a player needs skill to pilot said ships - this is to differentiate from *character* skills, which simply make some of the important numbers better.
Take flying a 'dictor for example. It can take weeks to get the skills to fly one of these ships, but much longer for a player to figure out the best way to use them. This prinicple applies to most ships in eve, to a greater or lesser extent.
Although the 'tiericide' initiative has been applied to ships and now beginning to be felt on modules, the skill system is very much tiered. Waiting 6 months to fly a carrier is effectively saying 'you need to be level 50 to use this ship', if you get my meaning.
Perhaps a better way to apply this principle is to reduce the skill requirements for ships and modules to 1. You'd still need the skill books, you'd still need to raise your skills up to get better with the ship, you'd still need the money to fly the ship, and you'd still need the player's know-how to fly the ship well. All it'd do is reduce the training time to something far less, freeing newer players so they can get into the ship and style of playing they want sooner, while still needing to train the relevant skills to be truly good with that ship.
Things like weapon specialisations and industry skills would be unchanged, but hulls could certainly be freed up.
I wouldn't mind that Basically aleiviates the other issue of the subskill being a training gate and instead makes the combo more meaningful Especially as with the redone ship training, you are speaking of caps or t2 Which for t2, I always felt they should just roll the cruiser skill into the hull as it makes no sense outside the edge case of losing the l5 skill from podding
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1722
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Posted - 2014.10.25 04:51:12 -
[23] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts.
did
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
66
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Posted - 2014.10.25 05:33:58 -
[24] - Quote
Make a permadeath Toon cost a monocle. Then loosing one will mean something. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
1982
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Posted - 2014.10.25 09:14:43 -
[25] - Quote
The whole idea seems flawed to me.
As I perceive it, Rise's objective is to make it easier (quicker) for people to try EVE.
The point is, EVE benefits from more long-term players (sticking around for years), not from more short-term players (sticking around for just a month or two).
If Joe Gamer doesn't want to start playing EVE like we all did (with a 50,000 or so SP character), it seems highly unlucky that he will stick around after his 1-2 Million SP perma-death character gets podded.
So, even leaving aside the disposable alt issue, what we'd get is:
a) higher PLEX prices
b) more clueless dudes running around and getting killed
c) no real long-term benefit to the community
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Gordon Gecco
Bluestar Airlines
0
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Posted - 2014.10.25 09:34:31 -
[26] - Quote
This looks like another new revenue stream almost identical to character boosts in wow. It's an interesting concept. But rather than selling characters with skill points to allocate why not just set pre set up chars. e.g
* T3 Pilot, t2 Shield and missile skills. * Marauder 5 Pilot
etc etc. You get the idea..
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
b) more clueless dudes running around and getting killed
Something wrong with that? Sounds great to me. |
Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.25 17:11:26 -
[27] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Endo Saissore wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Hmm...
Lloyd, how many SP does it take to fly a gank catalyst? Less than 5mil, right?
Anyone else see this as simply an instant disposabke gank alt? I hope someone points out to Rise that his idea would break CCP's own rules on disposable gank alts. Dont get hung up on the skill point numbers. Each new person could start out with 500k skillpoints if that's a concern. Then the achievements would be a little different for such low skillpoints. Instead look at the overall idea. Yeah, the overall idea is still bad, and still violates CCP's rules on disposable ganking alts. The highsec carebears already throw fits over an imagined problem with disposable alts, having an official system to encourage disposable alts would maje them explode. On second thought, the tear flood from the carebears might be worth endorsing this idea. There is the concern of that happening. What if the progression to a permadeath character took a bit? Like the achievement to get a catalyst gank capable alt took a PvP kill? Or one of the achievements included lowsec belt ratting. So gankers weigh the option of buying sec tags or using skill to have a ganker burn alt. So I kill my alt and get around your silly restriction. You would kill your alt at the cost of a PLEX? |
Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.25 17:29:22 -
[28] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:The whole idea seems flawed to me.
As I perceive it, Rise's objective is to make it easier (quicker) for people to try EVE.
The point is, EVE benefits from more long-term players (sticking around for years), not from more short-term players (sticking around for just a month or two).
If Joe Gamer doesn't want to start playing EVE like we all did (with a 50,000 or so SP character), it seems highly unlucky that he will stick around after his 1-2 Million SP perma-death character gets podded.
So, even leaving aside the disposable alt issue, what we'd get is:
a) higher PLEX prices
b) more clueless dudes running around and getting killed
c) no real long-term benefit to the community Its not actually for new players. Its for vets who want to try something harder. Where death has an even greater consequence. |
Omega Tron
Amarr Mining Inc
39
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Posted - 2014.10.25 17:42:26 -
[29] - Quote
My 2 ISK's opinion on this is --
It's a really bad idea. There are plenty of other areas in today's EVE that are in need of attention. Like new agent content, PI, or comets?
EVE Online is CCP's sand box. -áThe sand is owned by CCP. -áWe just get to pay them a monthly fee to throw the sand at each other.-á-á
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Endo Saissore
Asteroid Bluez S I L E N T.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.25 17:48:55 -
[30] - Quote
I see you have other concerns. But saying its a bad idea because the game needs help in other areas isn't really an argument. One can turn around and say PI upgrades and comet mining is a bad idea because POS code needs work. Why specifically dont you like it? |
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