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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
773
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Posted - 2014.10.25 19:01:12 -
[1] - Quote
It's been a while now that certain groups, the blocs, RvB Ganked, Brave and Co, can form up enough people to have to have multiple fleets. CCP has recently created a new corporation management skill, Sovereignty, to allow for even larger groups to form. I see no reason why CCP can't create a new skill and put in some work so that Eve can support a larger type of fleet: The Armada.
Armada would replace fleets as the base structure when forming a fleet. Currently a fleet can max out at 5 wings of 5 squads, or around 250 people. An Armada would allow for 5 fleets of 5 wings of 5 squads each. Or around 1250 people and an Armada commander. This would allow a single commander to broadcast targets to all of those people, a pilots to broadcast for reps to the Armada, and so on. This would introduce a new skill called Armada Command. Armada Command would "Grants the Armada Commander the ability to pass on their bonuses to an additional Fleet per skill level, up to a maximum of 5 Fleets." It would be a long (14x?) train time.
Thoughts? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1578
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Posted - 2014.10.25 19:09:35 -
[2] - Quote
Something like that or similar would be good for Spectre/RvB Ganked type of fleets. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1552
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Posted - 2014.10.25 19:20:12 -
[3] - Quote
I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly |
Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
774
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Posted - 2014.10.25 19:36:26 -
[4] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13708
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Posted - 2014.10.25 21:15:04 -
[5] - Quote
A 1250 man baltec fleet...
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1628
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Posted - 2014.10.25 21:19:24 -
[6] - Quote
Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob. |
Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
774
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Posted - 2014.10.25 21:26:12 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob. You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13708
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Posted - 2014.10.25 21:31:19 -
[8] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob. You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets.
You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts.
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Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
4012
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Posted - 2014.10.26 00:14:33 -
[9] - Quote
No.
I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Demon your parents warned you about.
||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Tug-class Vessel||
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
3883
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Posted - 2014.10.26 00:54:49 -
[10] - Quote
Command links need to be nerfed - not boosted.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:06:53 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aliventi wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob. You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets. You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts. If the ratio of fleet sizes stays the same, So 5x the DPS and 5x the logi, then they are in theory just as powerful as they are now. You are going to need 5x the logi to rep 5x the DPS and 5x the DPS to beat 5x the logi. Things will die just as they do now.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Command links need to be nerfed - not boosted. CCP needs to get brain-in-the-box done. So CCP Fozzie can redo fleet links. They have the plan, they just need it to not melt the server to do. It isn't much of a boost. Any competent fleet is already rolling with all the links they could ever want. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:53:04 -
[12] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Rowells wrote:I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed. But a gain, allowing you to have: 1 Armada booster 1 Fleet Booster 1 wing booster 1 Squad booster, meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:54:52 -
[13] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aliventi wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or we can A: Not increase the train needed for boosting & FC's. And B: Not encourage the blob. You get the same effect either way. 1 Armada or 5 fleets the blob will still form. It would just be nice to not have to have 5 fleets. You make fire control and logistics so much easier and will make the current near invincible fleets into unstoppable juggernauts. If the ratio of fleet sizes stays the same, So 5x the DPS and 5x the logi, then they are in theory just as powerful as they are now. You are going to need 5x the logi to rep 5x the DPS and 5x the DPS to beat 5x the logi. Things will die just as they do now. Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 02:46:30 -
[14] - Quote
James Baboli wrote: But a gain, allowing you to have: 1 Armada booster 1 Fleet Booster 1 wing booster 1 Squad booster, meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.
There is nothing stopping a smaller gang from filling all the same fleet bonus locations and getting all the same bonuses. It is no more powerful for a blob than a small gang.
James Baboli wrote: Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.
Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.26 03:06:13 -
[15] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:James Baboli wrote: But a gain, allowing you to have: 1 Armada booster 1 Fleet Booster 1 wing booster 1 Squad booster, meaning that in a super capital fleet with the right mix of titans, you can theoretically gain all 4 flavors of titan boosts, or you can gain 2 flavors and all 4 links with command ship bonus, making blobbing even more heavily bonused than it is when one has the proper boosters and FCs.
There is nothing stopping a smaller gang from filling all the same fleet bonus locations and getting all the same bonuses. It is no more powerful for a blob than a small gang. James Baboli wrote: Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.
Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it. No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread.
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
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Posted - 2014.10.26 03:29:54 -
[16] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Aliventi wrote:James Baboli wrote: Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.
Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it. No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread. So first you argue that it make logi more effective, then you argue that it makes DPS so effective it isn't worth trying to tank anything. Will you please make up your mind? |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.26 03:45:05 -
[17] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:James Baboli wrote:Aliventi wrote:James Baboli wrote: Except that you now have 5x the logi seeing that same broadcast that was seen by 1 fleets worth of logi, which makes it entirely more effective, reducing lag time to getting reps from other fleets and so on.
Except they are being shot at by 5x the DPS ships. So the chances of getting reps to hold is the same as before. For every logi ship that helps catch reps there is a DPS ship wiping away their reps. In fact, it may even weaken logi as the probability of alphaing a ship is higher when you have more DPS ships shooting it. No, because the same 5 fleets were already all on grid with each other, and now are better able to coordinate and thus increases alpha almost to the point of being not worth attempting to tank anything smaller than a dread. So first you argue that it make logi more effective, then you argue that it makes DPS so effective it isn't worth trying to tank anything. Will you please make up your mind? I have. N+1 as the primary driving force requires tougher and tougher ships, and we are approaching the limit of how tough you can make a battleship in null warfare. This idea pushes this scaling upwards yet further. As it stands, for the lag time between this being implemented and fleet sizes catching fully up, logi will be more effective, but this would spell the end for anything less tough than capitals in the main fight entirely. It is counter to the changes meant to break up sov space, pushes for yet more blob and generally is bad.
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
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Posted - 2014.10.26 04:04:53 -
[18] - Quote
James Baboli wrote: N+1 as the primary driving force requires tougher and tougher ships, and we are approaching the limit of how tough you can make a battleship in null warfare. This idea pushes this scaling upwards yet further. As it stands, for the lag time between this being implemented and fleet sizes catching fully up, logi will be more effective, but this would spell the end for anything less tough than capitals in the main fight entirely. It is counter to the changes meant to break up sov space, pushes for yet more blob and generally is bad.
There is nothing about N+1 that requires you to change anything about the tank of a battleship or any ship for that matter. There is nothing about N+1 being the current best way to hold SOV that means a ship should be able to tank a certain amount. There is nothing wrong with ships dying or being volleyed of the field. There is nothing wrong with ships catching reps. Ships are already alphaed by sub-max sized fleets. Having 1250 people instead of 250 will not change that in any aspect.
This in NO way counters the changes to break up SOV space. The ability to form one armada or 5 fleets has NO impact on the ability to get groups of people together to grind down tens of millions of structure EHP. This change will in no way prevent any further changes to the SOV system that will break up the blocs we currently see today. Having the ability to field an Armada instead of 5 fleets is NOT going to grant the CFC the ability to hold onto Delve, Querious, and Period Basis which is a side effect of 5ly online coming with Phoebe.
tl;dr: This won't change a damn thing except you only needing to form 1 armada instead of 5 fleets. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13708
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Posted - 2014.10.26 04:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
There is only one powerblock in EVE that can deploy one of these mega fleets. Logi will be five times more effective as you will have five fleets worth that can now see the broadcast and you will get five times the alpha as again everyone will see the target broadcast.
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
69
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Posted - 2014.10.26 04:34:21 -
[20] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Rowells wrote:I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed. So to get maximum boosters for a 6 man fleet we need a "Fleet Booster" + "Armada Booster". That's asking a lot for the little guy. |
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
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Posted - 2014.10.26 04:48:10 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There is only one powerblock in EVE that can deploy one of these mega fleets. Logi will be five times more effective as you will have five fleets worth that can now see the broadcast and you will get five times the alpha as again everyone will see the target broadcast. Yes, there may be only one bloc in Eve that can fill an Armada. This also has big benefits for those that can fill 1.5 fleets. Or 3.32 fleets. They no longer need to coordinate across multiple fleets. That is really what this is trying to fix. Five time the logi isn't going to raise the alpha threshold on any ship. Five times the amount of ships firing at a single target is going to mean a lot of wasted shots once the ships is alphaed. This isn't just an "N+1 = I win" upgrade. It brings its own challenges to the table.
The Hamilton wrote:Aliventi wrote:Rowells wrote:I'm not to sure that the bonuses would be a good idea. You would go from needing 5-6 boosters for 250 to 5-6 1250 people if i understand it correctly Not quite. Each fleet and wing would still need to have their own boosters. You would just gain an Armada booster. So no real change in amount of boosters needed. So to get maximum boosters for a 6 man fleet we need a "Fleet Booster" + "Armada Booster". That's asking a lot for the little guy. No one is forcing you to fly with max links. Currently command ships are shield/armor-skrmish or shield/armor- info. You now have a two layer link systems, one at wing and the other at fleet. You typically slot one of each in those spots. Having three layers really won't do more, if anything, for you. The only exception I can think of is trying to get shield links for an armor fleet and vice versa. It won't help a terrible lot. In fact, it may mean fewer link ships for the small guy. If you only wanted the 2 sets of useful links for your fleet then you would slot one as the Armada booster and the other as the Fleet booster. This would give you the links you have now to upwards of 250 people. To get that same effect you currently you would need a fleet booster and 5 wing boosters. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13709
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Posted - 2014.10.26 05:18:45 -
[22] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: Yes, there may be only one bloc in Eve that can fill an Armada. This also has big benefits for those that can fill 1.5 fleets. Or 3.32 fleets. They no longer need to coordinate across multiple fleets. That is really what this is trying to fix.
There is nothing to fix here, what you are doing is boosting the power of large fleets.
Aliventi wrote: Five time the logi isn't going to raise the alpha threshold on any ship.
No but its going to make it impossible for near everyone else in EVE to even score one or two kills against our fleets. We will effectively be immortal.
Aliventi wrote: Five times the amount of ships firing at a single target is going to mean a lot of wasted shots once the ships is alphaed. This isn't just an "N+1 = I win" upgrade. It brings its own challenges to the table.
Doesn't matter about wasted alpha, the fact is the there is not a single subcap that can take that kind of punishment.
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Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
776
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Posted - 2014.10.26 05:38:37 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aliventi wrote: Yes, there may be only one bloc in Eve that can fill an Armada. This also has big benefits for those that can fill 1.5 fleets. Or 3.32 fleets. They no longer need to coordinate across multiple fleets. That is really what this is trying to fix.
There is nothing to fix here, what you are doing is boosting the power of large fleets. Aliventi wrote: Five time the logi isn't going to raise the alpha threshold on any ship.
No but its going to make it impossible for near everyone else in EVE to even score one or two kills against our fleets. We will effectively be immortal. Aliventi wrote: Five times the amount of ships firing at a single target is going to mean a lot of wasted shots once the ships is alphaed. This isn't just an "N+1 = I win" upgrade. It brings its own challenges to the table.
Doesn't matter about wasted alpha, the fact is the there is not a single subcap that can take that kind of punishment. It is NOT a power boost to larger fleets. You can do everything you can do now, but with a single armada structure instead of multiple fleets. Seeing broadcasts != preventing an alpha. Seeing broadcasts != effective use of alpha. The same challenges you face now are the same challenges you will face then.
Explain to be how you are going to prevent a ship from being alphaed? If it is properly alphaed you have 0 chance to rep it. Until you can do that, you are not going to be "effectively immortal." There isn't a single subcap that can take that punishment. Which is a great thing. It means ships die. Alpha control will mean the difference between winning and losing. If you can't seem to divide up your fleet properly so different parts alpha different ships and your enemy does you will lose. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
167
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Posted - 2014.10.26 06:03:33 -
[24] - Quote
Okay, time to start creating a list of things to remember on F&I.
- When the ISD says calm down, TURN DOWN. FOR ISD.
- When the only people able to make full use of your idea are arguing against it, it is probably a bad idea.
- If it is a cosmetic tweak, or you can't make the idea more than one line, it probably belongs in the little things thread.
- When the only people who can fully use a change argue against it, it is probably bad.
- Don't listen to Dryson.
- If you cannot predict the first order effects, it is probably not a good change or idea.
- If there are no first order effects, it belongs in the little things thread.
- If you put numbers out, make sure they are right.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13709
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Posted - 2014.10.26 06:13:18 -
[25] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:
It is NOT a power boost to larger fleets.
We will have five fleets rolled into one, how is this NOT a boost the large fleets? They will be five times more powerful.
Aliventi wrote: You can do everything you can do now, but with a single armada structure instead of multiple fleets. Seeing broadcasts != preventing an alpha. Seeing broadcasts != effective use of alpha. The same challenges you face now are the same challenges you will face then.
Under your plan five fleets will see the same brodcast, this is something that cannot be done right now.
Aliventi wrote: Explain to be how you are going to prevent a ship from being alphaed? If it is properly alphaed you have 0 chance to rep it. Until you can do that, you are not going to be "effectively immortal." There isn't a single subcap that can take that punishment. Which is a great thing. It means ships die. Alpha control will mean the difference between winning and losing. If you can't seem to divide up your fleet properly so different parts alpha different ships and your enemy does you will lose.
So how is an organisation that can only sport 150 going to do anything but die horribly? Logi is already far too effective in large numbers and you want to make them at least five times more powerful? God no.
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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
556
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Posted - 2014.10.26 07:18:19 -
[26] - Quote
Reduce wings to three squads and fleets to three wings. Problem solved. Er, wait.
Command and control issues are one of the logical weak points of massive fleets. Why mitigate that? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
722
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Posted - 2014.10.26 11:23:19 -
[27] - Quote
I'd prefer fleets to be reduced in size to make huge fleets more of a logistical issue and require better actual FC skills in player terms. On top of that there should be some better means to disprupt a fleets C&C structure (effectively disrupting the boosts/assists etc)
Clever use of the various ship classes should be able to bring choas into an enemy fleet but right now that doesn't seem possible when faced with a blob. The huge fleets disintegrating into masses of smaller fleet brawls (much like WWI naval combat did) would be much more fun for everyone and a real challenge for the FC's involved.
Just a random thought that popped into my head. Instead of the current one ship boosts infinite fleet members in the same system how about a range of hulls that provide command boosts but only for their size class of hull? A fleet of frigs or dessies boosted on sig radius and speed would suddenly become a massive problem for a fleet of caps/super caps if they don't have their own support fleets. |
Tappits
north eastern swat Pandemic Legion
63
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Posted - 2014.10.26 11:41:19 -
[28] - Quote
I am pretty shore CCP have said they like the massive fights from a publicity point of view but donGÇÖt really like having them as itGÇÖs a pain on their end.. So I donGÇÖt see them coming up with a system to help massive coalitions forming massive fleetGÇÖs easer.
Also NO
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
903
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Posted - 2014.10.26 11:54:21 -
[29] - Quote
Make fleet sizes smaller tbh |
PineappIe King
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
10
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Posted - 2014.10.26 11:57:40 -
[30] - Quote
nerf blobs!!!! |
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