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Chimpface Holocaust
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2014.10.27 15:48:41 -
[1] - Quote
Tech 3 cruisers were originally meant to be modular "jack of all trades" type ships able to refit and change their role on the fly but would be unable to match T2 ships in their specific role. Currently, they are more "build-a-bear" FOTM type ships that you can customize to a specific role and some of them can be even better than their T2 counterparts. I've detailed a method that I think would adequately resolve these issues and fit the T3 ships into their desired place in EVE.
1. Remove SP loss and make the ships/subs cheaper to build
the main excuse people use for leaving these ships so overpowered is their cost. if they were cheaper SP-wise and money-wise, then perhaps they could be balanced without a major community backlash
2. remove rig slots
the reason these ships can't simply be refit on the fly is rigs which have to be destroyed and replaced everytime you change roles.
removing rig slots would eliminate this issue and also limit the FoTM nature of these ships
3. remove T2 resists
some of the T3 ships can have insane tanks, nearly surpassing that of battleships while remaining fast and nimble.
removing the T2 resists from the base subs would limit this
4. Move logistics bonuses from the defense subsystem to the offense subsystem to replace the lesser used offense sub
every T3 ship has an offensive sub that's rarely ever used. moving the logistics bonuses from defense to this sub would allow the ship to fit better into a logistics role while still being less powerful than T2 logis. This would also allow each ship to have a buffer, rep, and resist sub for their race's tanking method, and an alternate defense sub
5. remove the interdiction nullifier sub
the interdiction nullifier is unique to T3 ships, making them the only ships that if fit with warp stabs, could potentially get past any gate camp
6. balance between T3 ships
some subs rarely ever get used because they're so underpowered and some are seen on every ship because they're so overpowered.
The T3 subs need to be balanced against eachother so that each sub has it's place in a specific ship role
Bottom line: we need to get these ships balanced before we even think about adding T3 ships of other sizes |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
945
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:04:42 -
[2] - Quote
Why remove something that makes the t3 unique with the nullifier sub?
I keep seeing this and its always going on about how they shouldnt have to actually play the game and point things |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1953
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:12:49 -
[3] - Quote
i support most of these, but none of them are new ideas...
if the T3 dessies work well we may be able to completely redesign T3 cruisers in the same way and all of this wont be necessary.
oooh, new idea: special bay just for a mobile depot on new T3's, because its going to be pretty mandatory to carry one lol.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
199
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Posted - 2014.10.27 16:17:30 -
[4] - Quote
Rebalancing around rigless hulls has always seemed sensible, seems to fix most of the issues in one fell swoop.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Ellendras Silver
The Scope Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:17:35 -
[5] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Tech 3 cruisers were originally meant to be modular "jack of all trades" type ships able to refit and change their role on the fly but would be unable to match T2 ships in their specific role. Currently, they are more "build-a-bear" FOTM type ships that you can customize to a specific role and some of them can be even better than their T2 counterparts. I've detailed a method that I think would adequately resolve these issues and fit the T3 ships into their desired place in EVE.
1. Remove SP loss and make the ships/subs cheaper to build
the main excuse people use for leaving these ships so overpowered is their cost. if they were cheaper SP-wise and money-wise, then perhaps they could be balanced without a major community backlash
2. remove rig slots
the reason these ships can't simply be refit on the fly is rigs which have to be destroyed and replaced everytime you change roles.
removing rig slots would eliminate this issue and also limit the FoTM nature of these ships
3. remove T2 resists
some of the T3 ships can have insane tanks, nearly surpassing that of battleships while remaining fast and nimble.
removing the T2 resists from the base subs would limit this
4. Move logistics bonuses from the defense subsystem to the offense subsystem to replace the lesser used offense sub
every T3 ship has an offensive sub that's rarely ever used. moving the logistics bonuses from defense to this sub would allow the ship to fit better into a logistics role while still being less powerful than T2 logis. This would also allow each ship to have a buffer, rep, and resist sub for their race's tanking method, and an alternate defense sub
5. remove the interdiction nullifier sub
the interdiction nullifier is unique to T3 ships, making them the only ships that if fit with warp stabs, could potentially get past any gate camp
6. balance between T3 ships
some subs rarely ever get used because they're so underpowered and some are seen on every ship because they're so overpowered.
The T3 subs need to be balanced against eachother so that each sub has it's place in a specific ship role
Bottom line: we need to get these ships balanced before we even think about adding T3 ships of other sizes
1. i agree on the SP loss, but a lot of people want to keep the skill lose to justify the insane tanks. i cant say anything about making them cheaper think about all the people making their isk with T3 subs and hulls. 2. i don't know if i want this, besides you can use certain rigs in multiple roles 3. the tank needs to be nerfed not sure if this is the best way to do it. 4. no 5. no 6. yeah but this is easier said then done
i would like to see that the T3 cruisers are good and versatile ships but not overshadowing multiple T2 ships in almost every way possible.
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
586
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Posted - 2014.10.27 16:30:28 -
[6] - Quote
1. No. These are a pillar of WH income. That should stay high. These ships should remain expensive. SP loss is good because it discourages T3 proliferation somewhat. 2. Good suggestion. This lowers the buffer tanking ability, which is really the only OP thing about T3. Compensate by giving each T3 a potential extra low slot for shield fits and mid slot for armor fits (yes, you read that right). 3. No. Already balanced by point 2. T3's are currently valuable partially due to ability to run high-end PVE and PVP - no need to crush them into uselessness. T2 resists without insane buffer will be fine. 4. Good idea. 5. No. The interdiction subsystem currently requires sacrificing a low slot and combat ability as it is. 6. Agreed.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
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Posted - 2014.10.27 17:33:16 -
[7] - Quote
1. no 2. no (having rigs gives so many interesting possibilities - some changes to how rigs work with T3 wouldn't go amiss though) 3. no (I do agree though that configurations that allow for insane tanks should not be able to remain fast and nimble) 4. maybe (things like tactical targeting network could be reused to support some tweaks to stuff like that) 5. no 6. yes
(All of this has been brought up a dozen times before). |
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
12
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Posted - 2014.10.27 19:42:18 -
[8] - Quote
The big issue with T3s has always been where their "flexibility" has actually meant "completely outclasses the equivalent T2 hull to this subsystem combination". It used to be by training the (very SP-cheap) T3 skills you got a Command Ship+, Recon+ and HAC+, the only setup that was really ok was the Logi because the range stopped them being Logi-different not Logi+.
They aren't too bad as Recons barring the ability to tank like a bastard while EWARing, but frankly the problem here is more weak Recons than overly strong T3s.
The Command Ship+ issue got halfway solved by making Command Ships better boosters, and the only remaining issue is the off-grid boosting thing which is a general mechanic issue, not a ship issue, that CCP have already said they want to solve when they can work out how.
HAC+ is still a real issue. T3s combine superior-to-HAC damage output with absolutely insane EHP - better than Battleships without much effort, and with the advantage of cruiser maneuverability/sig. They are just so much better it's not funny and the only proliferation-limiter is the isk cost which, as we've seen with Capital and Supercapital cases doesn't actually last very long as a limiting factor.
Other than the "terrible idea in the first place" issue, which is something CCP just have to live with, the real problem with T3s that's actually a part of the T3 stats is the insane tank. |
Ellendras Silver
The Scope Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 20:02:31 -
[9] - Quote
Gaan Cathal wrote:The big issue with T3s has always been where their "flexibility" has actually meant "completely outclasses the equivalent T2 hull to this subsystem combination". It used to be by training the (very SP-cheap) T3 skills you got a Command Ship+, Recon+ and HAC+, the only setup that was really ok was the Logi because the range stopped them being Logi-different not Logi+.
They aren't too bad as Recons barring the ability to tank like a bastard while EWARing, but frankly the problem here is more weak Recons than overly strong T3s.
The Command Ship+ issue got halfway solved by making Command Ships better boosters, and the only remaining issue is the off-grid boosting thing which is a general mechanic issue, not a ship issue, that CCP have already said they want to solve when they can work out how.
HAC+ is still a real issue. T3s combine superior-to-HAC damage output with absolutely insane EHP - better than Battleships without much effort, and with the advantage of cruiser maneuverability/sig. They are just so much better it's not funny and the only proliferation-limiter is the isk cost which, as we've seen with Capital and Supercapital cases doesn't actually last very long as a limiting factor.
Other than the "terrible idea in the first place" issue, which is something CCP just have to live with, the real problem with T3s that's actually a part of the T3 stats is the insane tank.
2. Has some merit to it, though I'd actually say restrict them to one rig slot. It lets you choose to be highly flexible, or at least makes it only cost a rig each time, and follows the logic of T2 ships "loosing" a rig slot over their T1 counterparts. It would help, a lot.
3. Has some merit in that the insane tank is a big problem, but you'd want to look at it after seeing the effects of reducing the number of rigs to 1, imo. It might be that an RHP reduction would work better. That said, Minmatar T2 resists are jacked anyway, so I'd not cry if they lost those.
1, 4 and 5 are either unnecessary or plain bad (the nullifier is one of the few real contributions to the game environment T3s have made).
6 kinda goes without saying.
nice post and i agree 100% so i gave a +1 and its always the same all the people that only fly T3 ships (for obvious reason why fly HAC when a T3 is way better etc etc) and always they try to protect it with we need more tank or else we die and lose SPs and if we say fine we get rid of that penalty its no good either because they know they need that to claim it needs to be as it is (some even ask for buffs )
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
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Posted - 2014.10.27 20:49:29 -
[10] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:nice post and i agree 100% so i gave a +1 and its always the same all the people that only fly T3 ships (for obvious reason why fly HAC when a T3 is way better etc etc) and always they try to protect it with we need more tank or else we die and lose SPs and if we say fine we get rid of that penalty its no good either because they know they need that to claim it needs to be as it is (some even ask for buffs )
There is sooo much more to it than SP loss. |
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
933
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 20:50:43 -
[11] - Quote
nothing new here , this thread is a rehash of many other threads, that being said i'll offer some thoughts just incase fozzie or rise bother too read it and have forgotten what needs changing :
- T1 resists are a must .. 300k ehp proteus with 900 dps and 150 sig is just insane - remove rigs for sure .. otherwise the T3 generalization/versatility concept is pointless - cheaper subs are a must - otherwise no versatility will be possible - who wants too pay 300 -400 mil for spare subs too swap around?
- make subs bonus only - this would simplify many issues with sub swapping quickly and knowing the result without having too use out of game fitting tools .. which is a fail in itself that you have too go out of game to do something in game accurately
- interdiction nullifier is quite powerful on an inty nevermind a cloaky T3 .. perhaps its time too remove it, or if you solve the other issues perhaps it could be balanced ..
- also on skills .. its T3 not T2 so lv5's shouldn't be necessary especially as lv5 cruiser doesn't add a bonus -remove SP loss mechanic .. i suspect its purpose was too limit there use .. but its a stupid mechanic that achieves nothing in reality.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Ellendras Silver
The Scope Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 21:12:39 -
[12] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:nice post and i agree 100% so i gave a +1 and its always the same all the people that only fly T3 ships (for obvious reason why fly HAC when a T3 is way better etc etc) and always they try to protect it with we need more tank or else we die and lose SPs and if we say fine we get rid of that penalty its no good either because they know they need that to claim it needs to be as it is (some even ask for buffs ) There is sooo much more to it than SP loss.
i know but fact is that T3 cruisers are OP and need a fix
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
201
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Posted - 2014.10.27 21:27:20 -
[13] - Quote
You would hope they'd be nerfed to a point where removing the SP loss would be justifiable. It's a stupid, stupid way of trying to balance something.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2497
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Posted - 2014.10.27 21:44:21 -
[14] - Quote
How about tanking issues are caused from the +10% HP or the 10% Rep amount, these should be changed to 5% HP boost and 7.5% rep amount, like all other ships.
The T2 resists should stay.
The interdiction nullifier is a nice addition and makes things good for WH play i doubt they will be removed.
SP loss is meh, don't care if it stays or leaves.
Balance needs to happen around all ships and not just between T3 class ships.
The variable slot layout is the biggest culprit for the unbalanced state the T3 ships are in.
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Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.10.27 21:49:06 -
[15] - Quote
i think only 2 things really need to be done to balance t3.
1. cut their tank. it's simply out of control.
2. do something about the cloaky/nullified versions. definitely remove the agility bonus on the nullifier sub. it really shouldn't be possible to achieve a 4 sec align time with that setup. the way server ticks work its nearly impossible for a frigate sitting on the gate to burn for a de-cloak before they are in warp. if you make your ship too fast you can overshoot them and according to the server never be within 2km of them for a de-cloak if the ticks line up just right. it requires a great deal of luck using this method, imo too much luck.
if the align time was just increased by one second to 5 seconds it would at least be possible. currently the only way to have a good chance of catching them is to set up hundreds of cans around the gate and have him spawn on one. this creates lag tho and ccp dosent like it much.
but of coarse if ccp wants there to be incredibly hard to catch ships that basicly makes the opposing pilots skill/fit irrelevent, and forces him to ither rely on luck or create lag then i guess it dosent need to change. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 22:00:08 -
[16] - Quote
Nullifier is a hard one to balance between making them too easy to evade danger and making them too easy to catch, a slightly bigger align time penalty could work.
Funny thing about people who complain about T3 tanks being OP (and this isn't pointed at anyone in particular and not even directly from this thread) doing a little digging on some of them (beyond just eve-kill on the pilot posting :P) so many never fly anything other than destroyers and the odd inty or now and again a hac. |
Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.10.27 22:12:07 -
[17] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Nullifier is a hard one to balance between making them too easy to evade danger and making them too easy to catch, a slightly bigger align time penalty could work.
Funny thing about people who complain about T3 tanks being OP (and this isn't pointed at anyone in particular and not even directly from this thread) doing a little digging on some of them (beyond just eve-kill on the pilot posting :P) so many never fly anything other than destroyers and the odd inty or now and again a hac.
its very hard to balance things in this game, ive said before and i say again i really wouldn't want to be in ccp's shoes. even tho its just a (rather serious)game. really do you have to fly a lot of t3s to realize their tanks are a bit much? 200k ehp is very easy to achieve, all while maintaining a cruiser size signature...
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
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Posted - 2014.10.27 22:18:24 -
[18] - Quote
Goochan derp wrote:Rroff wrote:Nullifier is a hard one to balance between making them too easy to evade danger and making them too easy to catch, a slightly bigger align time penalty could work.
Funny thing about people who complain about T3 tanks being OP (and this isn't pointed at anyone in particular and not even directly from this thread) doing a little digging on some of them (beyond just eve-kill on the pilot posting :P) so many never fly anything other than destroyers and the odd inty or now and again a hac. its very hard to balance things in this game, ive said before and i say again i really wouldn't want to be in ccp's shoes. even tho its just a (rather serious)game. really do you have to fly a lot of t3s to realize their tanks are a bit much? 200k ehp is very easy to achieve, all while maintaining a cruiser size signature... also im pretty sure i remember hearing ccp say they are at least thinking about making the rigs on a t3 be swappable. that would be a cool change.
I've always maintained that I don't think the bigger bonuses always have appropriate penalties on T3s - something with 200K EHP shouldn't have the sig or mobility of a hac or anything like, should be much closer to a commandship but I'm firmly not in the camp of indiscriminately slashing the EHP as a knee jerk reaction.
Being able to swap between (but not remove without destroying) rigs on a T3 would be a great step forward. |
Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.10.27 22:27:34 -
[19] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Goochan derp wrote:Rroff wrote:Nullifier is a hard one to balance between making them too easy to evade danger and making them too easy to catch, a slightly bigger align time penalty could work.
Funny thing about people who complain about T3 tanks being OP (and this isn't pointed at anyone in particular and not even directly from this thread) doing a little digging on some of them (beyond just eve-kill on the pilot posting :P) so many never fly anything other than destroyers and the odd inty or now and again a hac. its very hard to balance things in this game, ive said before and i say again i really wouldn't want to be in ccp's shoes. even tho its just a (rather serious)game. really do you have to fly a lot of t3s to realize their tanks are a bit much? 200k ehp is very easy to achieve, all while maintaining a cruiser size signature... also im pretty sure i remember hearing ccp say they are at least thinking about making the rigs on a t3 be swappable. that would be a cool change. I've always maintained that I don't think the bigger bonuses always have appropriate penalties on T3s - something with 200K EHP shouldn't have the sig or mobility of a hac or anything like, should be much closer to a commandship but I'm firmly not in the camp of indiscriminately slashing the EHP as a knee jerk reaction. Being able to swap between (but not remove without destroying) rigs on a T3 would be a great step forward.
i agree, it should be a well thought out decision, and having a penalty of adding sig/mass to that subsystem that increases raw hp sounds like a good idea.
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
177
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Posted - 2014.10.28 05:54:36 -
[20] - Quote
I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Chimpface Holocaust
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2014.10.28 06:12:17 -
[21] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken.
I beleive the removal of rig slots and T2 resists would adequately compensate for this byremoving the ability to fit trimarks and forcing players to either deal with the T1 resists or swap some of the plates for resist mods to compensate |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
177
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Posted - 2014.10.28 06:32:21 -
[22] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:James Baboli wrote:I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken. I beleive the removal of rig slots and T2 resists would adequately compensate for this byremoving the ability to fit trimarks and forcing players to either deal with the T1 resists or swap some of the plates for resist mods to compensate This heavy handed approach completely destroys any ability to use the loki or the tengu for many many of their current roles which are not PvP related, in such a case, even running from t1 resists, the sheer ridiculous buffer of these armor fits skews the entire conversation. A surgical nerf of this one, particularly outrageous aspect and then a trial period to see what further nerfs are needed is almost certainly the best course.
BTW; even with no trimarks as opposed to the 3 t2 used for the intitial numbers, the bonus from this subsystem pushes the raw armor buffer of even a single plate legion with slaves to ~25k. It is far more these two subsystems that allow for the insane tanks than it is rigging t3s that causes the issue. Resists are once again, something that is comparable to a t2 hull, and in some cases (the logisitics defensive subs) better, but this is not the issue people keep bringing up. the issue I keep hearing is with the 300k ehp + legions and protei that, because they use a single plate to get there, retain the agility and speed of a standard armor cruiser.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
196
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Posted - 2014.10.28 06:53:32 -
[23] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken.
Entirely broken, how? What kind of issues those pure EFT joke fits have caused in the game?
Most of the ideas in this thread are terrible, only rebalancing T3s actually need is removal of rig slots and fixing unusable subsystems. |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
32
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Posted - 2014.10.28 07:12:44 -
[24] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Tech 3 cruisers were originally meant to be modular "jack of all trades" type ships able to refit and change their role on the fly but would be unable to match T2 ships in their specific role. Currently, they are more "build-a-bear" FOTM type ships that you can customize to a specific role and some of them can be even better than their T2 counterparts. I've detailed a method that I think would adequately resolve these issues and fit the T3 ships into their desired place in EVE.
1. Remove SP loss and make the ships/subs cheaper to build
the main excuse people use for leaving these ships so overpowered is their cost. if they were cheaper SP-wise and money-wise, then perhaps they could be balanced without a major community backlash
2. remove rig slots
the reason these ships can't simply be refit on the fly is rigs which have to be destroyed and replaced everytime you change roles.
removing rig slots would eliminate this issue and also limit the FoTM nature of these ships
3. remove T2 resists
some of the T3 ships can have insane tanks, nearly surpassing that of battleships while remaining fast and nimble.
removing the T2 resists from the base subs would limit this
4. Move logistics bonuses from the defense subsystem to the offense subsystem to replace the lesser used offense sub
every T3 ship has an offensive sub that's rarely ever used. moving the logistics bonuses from defense to this sub would allow the ship to fit better into a logistics role while still being less powerful than T2 logis. This would also allow each ship to have a buffer, rep, and resist sub for their race's tanking method, and an alternate defense sub
5. remove the interdiction nullifier sub
the interdiction nullifier is unique to T3 ships, making them the only ships that if fit with warp stabs, could potentially get past any gate camp
6. balance between T3 ships
some subs rarely ever get used because they're so underpowered and some are seen on every ship because they're so overpowered.
The T3 subs need to be balanced against eachother so that each sub has it's place in a specific ship role
Bottom line: we need to get these ships balanced before we even think about adding T3 ships of other sizes
1. No would be a big nerv for the income of people living in the wh. 2. Don-¦t like the ideas rigs are good to make you ship special and adaptable to your gameplaystyle. 3. In special cases the resistance are needed (capital escalation C5/C6), if there would be a solution found i-¦ll would be okay with it 4. Would be okay with that too but as an alternative not to kick some away. 5. No. There are also the interceptors. Try harder if you wanna catch a t3. 6. Good idea, CCP also said the same thing but it is not that easy to keep a game balanced.
Dear god why can-¦t we focused on more T2-ships like logicstic frigs, assault battleships or something like this why has it to be every time t3. There is also the posibility to make T2 equipment like the Reactive Armor hardner/ T2 Capital guns etc. There are so many things i would rather see than any more T3 stuff. The T3 Cruisers are needed to fill a space. The t3 destroyer i-¦m not shure what to think about it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
187
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Posted - 2014.10.28 08:47:21 -
[25] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Why remove something that makes the t3 unique with the nullifier sub?
I keep seeing this and its always going on about how they shouldnt have to actually play the game and point things
i keep seeing this and wondering "what about the interceptor?"
Also moving the logi sub to an offensive sub would be a hit to BLOPS gangs and they are already suffering some collateral as it stands T3 logi still fall far short of their T2 counterparts so try thinking of all they ways your changes would affect the game rather then just the areas you deal with. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
202
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Posted - 2014.10.28 10:36:42 -
[26] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:[quote=NEONOVUS]Also moving the logi sub to an offensive sub would be a hit to BLOPS gangs and they are already suffering some collateral as it stands T3 logi still fall far short of their T2 counterparts so try thinking of all they ways your changes would affect the game rather then just the areas you deal with. Wouldn't that be addressed in the balance though?
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill A Nest of Vipers
99
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Posted - 2014.10.28 13:48:47 -
[27] - Quote
Ok I read this and IGÇÖm quite sure most of the people posting here do not fly T3 nor do they fight T3. Some EFT-warriors, crying for EFT-balance...
To the point:
1) T3 are mostly used in WH. The balance here is a non-issue since T3 fight T3. ItGÇÖs rather a matter of making other ships viable in WH (Absolution being the one exception) and making T3 balanced against each other.
2) Why some people cry about T3 vs. HAC? I fly all T3 and all HACs and I would never take my T3 on a roam in LowSec on Null. Why? Price and sp loss. Nerfing T3 to a point of HAC would just make another HAC...
3) T2 resist is a must, not only coz it's stupid for T3 ships (maybe T3 resists) to have T1 stats, but coz T3 fly mostly with logi - resists are more important here then buffer. Solution: nerf buffer (see below).
4) Nerfing T3 in any way is a tricky idea. Not due to the PvP but rather PvE. T3 are the main tool for fighting sleepers, mostly capital spawns. Without T2 resists and huge buffer they would just die to cap spawns. Nerfing sleepers themselves would also be hard coz it would make income in wh too easy (or you would have to nerf capital ships also...)
5) A T3 are probably only ships (except maybe Cpas) that use faction mods as standard. So yes, they may seem overpowered when fighting them, but remember they pay a lot of ISK for that.
So before you propose any more great ideas take into account how T3 are flown and what is their place in EVE. Then try to balance.
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WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1158
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:33:02 -
[28] - Quote
totally yes to 1 and 6.
maybe to 4.
everything else is just plain stupid and shows a lack of undersanding and knowledge regarding strategic cruisers.
Removing their rigs and T2 resists would go a long way to making them completely useless and inefficient to the point of not being used again, ever.
also, interdiction nullification is NOT unique to strategic cruisers. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT OP.
A.K.A Hodor Von Grootenberg
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
177
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:41:39 -
[29] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:James Baboli wrote:I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken. Entirely broken, how? What kind of issues those pure EFT joke fits have caused in the game? Most of the ideas in this thread are terrible, only rebalancing T3s actually need is removal of rig slots and fixing unusable subsystems. Where else i eve can you triple the performance of a module? How else can you get 50k armor buffer on a cruiser, before resists? The 10% armor buffer subsystems are over powered, and cutting their bonus in half to start and then adjusting from there makes for a better balance point.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
196
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Posted - 2014.10.28 16:20:38 -
[30] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:James Baboli wrote:I strongly suggest that the bonus from the augmented plating sub on both the legion and the proteus be changed to 5% per level, and then reviewed later. Cutting half the bonus from these subs puts the subsystem bonus back into semi-reasonable territory, although they do synergize far too well with plates and slaves for my taste. It would be nice if these subsystems were done first, as they are by far the least balanced part of these ships, and doing iterations at 6 week intervals is likely to find a balance point fairly quickly.
Considering the legion, usually considered the lesser of the two evils, is able to hit a Ehp mark of nearly 700k if completely brick fit (and shiny, with implants but before links) and a real armor HP of 98k if triple plated, this single sub system cries out to be nerfed savagely before any other changes. While such a subsystem might be okay in isolation, the synergy between the slave set, trimarks, the over-sized buffer mods and the subsystem is entirely broken. Entirely broken, how? What kind of issues those pure EFT joke fits have caused in the game? Most of the ideas in this thread are terrible, only rebalancing T3s actually need is removal of rig slots and fixing unusable subsystems. Where else i eve can you triple the performance of a module? How else can you get 50k armor buffer on a cruiser, before resists? The 10% armor buffer subsystems are over powered, and cutting their bonus in half to start and then adjusting from there makes for a better balance point.
You are still talking only about numbers on paper, can't you give a real situation as an example why you think T3 tanks are overpowered? |
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