Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
6
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 11:26:50 -
[1] - Quote
A little while, having not long returned to EVE, I asked a couple of previous questions here:
Previous Post
..and received a couple of helpful replies; particularly from Tau Cabalander, although I thought the maths presented was a bit strange, I now see where he's coming from.
Firstly, however, a note - the BPO detail in the EVElopedia is now wrong (certainly it appears so, and I assume it has been since the Crius patch), although the in game BPO detail that can be seen against each item is correct. If a Dev sees this, can they please advise whether the EVElopedia will be updated?
At a guess, and given I have the BPOs and saw the detail, I am going to assume that the mineral requirements for BPOs was set around the Covetor needs, given the serious round numbers seen - although even there I suspect a rounding error or two has crept in!
Having been previously used to the old ME & 'PE' detail and, using the old 'perfect' detail I could find in the EVElopedia, then it was worth the maths to determine where further research became pointless, but it is now certainly simplified.
Along with a few other things checked (see below), I then found I had an unresearched Battleship BPO (a middle of the road BPO given my previous Capital focus) - and thus threw up a temp POS to do some experiments (having first checked the costs/time at NPC stations!). Please correct me if I've made a mistake, but:
- Each clean, unresearched, BPO can have up to 10% of its building materials saved (the maximum of ME10%); or expressed as 90% build costs based upon the initial figures (all are rounded up and, as others have noted, rounded after the number of runs is determined - so greater production numbers = more savings)
- Each clean, unresearched, BPO can have up to 20% of its building time saved (before any other Skill/Implant/Array savings). Thus a battleship BPO with an initial production time of 5hrs can have it reduced to 4hrs at TE20% - each run of +2% will reduce the building time by a base 6mins
- the build amount saved, or production time saved, for each level of ME or TE is linear - but the costs and time are ever increasing to rather large numbers indeed. For example (figures are, of course, not entirely consistently based due to changing System index):
Megathron BPO - Time to research 1% ME - Cost to research
1% - 49m 59s - 2,569 isk 2% - 1h 9m 2s - 3,548 isk 3% - 2h 44m 14s - 8,551 isk 4% - 6h 29m 51s - 20,300 isk 5% - 15h 26m 18s - 48,234 isk 6% - 1d 12h 48m 39s - 115,008 isk 7% - 3d 15h 16m 0s - 340,162 isk 8% - 8d 3h - 1,533,000 isk 9% - 18d 9h 12m 47s - 13,133,286 isk 10% - 45d 22h 58m 53s - 45,973,004 isk
The material savings costs for an ME10% researched BPO to the base ME0% are about 17misk per run. So, if you research the BPO fully to ME10%, taking some 80 days and ~61misk (plus POS costs), then make and sell 5 or so and you will have your money back.
However, in the course of my research I noticed the following:
- firstly that the difference between POS-based research and NPC-station in High Sec is most certainly very marked! To take a Rorqual BPO the final stage from ME9% to ME10% would cost 396m at a POS and take 146d, whereas at an NPC station it would take a bit longer at 208d, but a whopping 3.25B!!
- that this then makes me wonder if indeed the Capital ship BPOs reasearch cost is actually based correctly? For if the relationship to the Battleship BPOs is maintained then, for a Titan BPO:
- Going from ME6% to ME7% will cost 2b - then from ME7% to ME8% should cost 9b - then from ME8% to ME9% should cost over 77b - and finally to reach ME10% would cost over 270b!!!
For a BPO that costs 72,5b! An Erebus costs (based upon current mineral prices) about 55b at ME6%. If someone then spent >350b of research (5x the cost of the original BPO) to get to ME10% they would save some 2.5b each build - ie they would have to build over 140 Titans to get that saving back.
Is that actually right? Are Capital ship BPOs research costs being based upon sensible metrics? That a comparing an Erebus BPO at 72.5b original cost to a Megathron BPO at 1.25b (58x as much) results in research costs that are over 5,800 times as much?
What should be noted overall, however, is that high ME research can take a great deal of time to pay off and that high TE research is probably not worth it at all.....
Any comments? And please point out if I have something awry.... |
Ria Nieyli
21919
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 12:27:40 -
[2] - Quote
Research modifier for T1 Battleships is 60; Titans are at 600. Likely the huge increase you're seeing is due to the jacked up index in the station system.
Also, an Erebus does not cost 55b in materials any more.
Mirrored eyes
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4285
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 21:00:50 -
[3] - Quote
Also note that BPO less than ME 10% can still be perfect for 1 run, but the rounding will catch-up with you when doing more runs.
Total Material = MAXIMUM(Runs , CEILING(Runs * Base Material Amount * (1 - ME %) * any material reductions from facilities or teams)) |
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
6
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 22:52:03 -
[4] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Research modifier for T1 Battleships is 60; Titans are at 600. Likely the huge increase you're seeing is due to the jacked up index in the station system.
Also, an Erebus does not cost 55b in materials any more.
"Research Modifier"?
And the increase certainly isn't due to a system index - this is in the same system with the same index.
My Erebus 'cost' was certainly calculated from the post-Crius BPO details, the new formula and current 'mineral sell' prices. The fact that they sell for up to double that value is not due to the mineral costs of the Capital Parts.
|
Ria Nieyli
21922
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 07:09:25 -
[5] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Also note that BPO less than ME 10% can still be perfect for 1 run, but the rounding will catch-up with you when doing more runs.
Total Material = MAXIMUM(Runs , CEILING(Runs * Base Material Amount * (1 - ME %) * any material reductions from facilities or teams))
As an addendum, if the base requirement for a component is 1 on an unresearched blueprient, no matter what reductions you get or what batch size you do, it'll still be 1 per run.
Marcus Tedric wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Research modifier for T1 Battleships is 60; Titans are at 600. Likely the huge increase you're seeing is due to the jacked up index in the station system.
Also, an Erebus does not cost 55b in materials any more. "Research Modifier"? And the increase certainly isn't due to a system index - this is in the same system with the same index. My Erebus 'cost' was certainly calculated from the post-Crius BPO details, the new formula and current 'mineral sell' prices. The fact that they sell for up to double that value is not due to the mineral costs of the Capital Parts.
Yes, every blueprint has a modifier that affects the cost and time of it being researched now. Read more here. It would appear that the excessive amount of extra time at the station is really ramping up the costs for you.
As for the Erebus price, sure. It's your ISK after all.
Mirrored eyes
|
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
7
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 17:46:12 -
[6] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:................... Yes, every blueprint has a modifier that affects the cost and time of it being researched now. Read more here. It would appear that the excessive amount of extra time at the station is really ramping up the costs for you. .................
Thank you kindly, that was most helpful. I did go back and read as many 2012-2014 Dev Blogs that I could, but don't recall seeing that level of detail and must have missed (or simply not recalled) that.
In which case, if anyone is curious and/or a Dev may look in.....
If a Battleship (given that's what I actually tested and the maths is simple) has a Research Rank of 60 and the Titan/Erebus that I also checked is supposed to be 600.....
Then a 10x increase in the costs would be expected, surely? But I have actually seen it as 100x!
I therefore do wonder if a mistake has been made and a decimal point shift has occurred?
And, just to confirm, it's not a ramping up in stations for costs - all these tests (except for the specific test comparing an NPC station) - these are all POS-based research costs in the same system and with only tiny Index changes.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4287
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 20:08:12 -
[7] - Quote
There seems to be two factors: research rank and cost of produced item.
Then factor in facilities (10% NPC tax), and system index. |
Ria Nieyli
21938
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 20:28:55 -
[8] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote:Thank you kindly, that was most helpful. I did go back and read as many 2012-2014 Dev Blogs that I could, but don't recall seeing that level of detail and must have missed (or simply not recalled) that. In which case, if anyone is curious and/or a Dev may look in..... If a Battleship (given that's what I actually tested and the maths is simple) has a Research Rank of 60 and the Titan/Erebus that I also checked is supposed to be 600..... Then a 10x increase in the costs would be expected, surely? But I have actually seen it as 100x! I therefore do wonder if a mistake has been made and a decimal point shift has occurred?And, just to confirm, it's not a ramping up in stations for costs - all these tests (except for the specific test comparing an NPC station) - these are all POS-based research costs in the same system and with only tiny Index changes.
Swap systems. At 270b, the price is not right. Sounds like the index for where you are at is a full 10.
And Tau's post above me is correct.
Mirrored eyes
|
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
7
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 23:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thank you both.
I shall therefore just state for the record - I think the bigger Capital ships certainly seem to be somewhat beyond excessive.
ME9% to ME10% on a Titan/Erebus (no station, no tax, merely System index) costing 27bn would be a great deal - but 270bn! That honestly seems like a mistake.
This could be true for all the Capital ships......... |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
864
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 18:31:50 -
[10] - Quote
I was looking at researching certain BPOs that can be researched from ME0 to 10 in a single day. The cost of research in a .42 indexed system was over 50M isk. I had 11 BPOs to research. So I put up a POS.
1 day of POS fuel or >550M isk in taxes.... let me think...
"Remember remember the 4th of November!"
Phoebe. Coming soon to Eve Online.
|
|
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
7
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 19:54:03 -
[11] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:..................... So I put up a POS.
1 day of POS fuel or >550M isk in taxes.... let me think...
As did I for these tests/experiments. These incredibly high costs are for POS-based research. NPC station costs would be somewhat beyond rediculous.
Still rather hoping a Dev will confirm that this is by design - and that a coder didn't slip a decimal......
|
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1511
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 22:11:18 -
[12] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote:Still rather hoping a Dev will confirm that this is by design - and that a coder didn't slip a decimal......
Devs don't, in general, read random threads in this section, if you want that, file a petition.
|
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 10:53:05 -
[13] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote:A - that this then makes me wonder if indeed the Capital ship BPOs reasearch cost is actually based correctly? For if the relationship to the Battleship BPOs is maintained then, for a Titan BPO:
- Going from ME6% to ME7% will cost 2b - then from ME7% to ME8% should cost 9b - then from ME8% to ME9% should cost over 77b - and finally to reach ME10% would cost over 270b!!!
For a BPO that costs 72,5b! An Erebus costs (based upon current mineral prices) about 55b at ME6%. If someone then spent >350b of research (5x the cost of the original BPO) to get to ME10% they would save some 2.5b each build - ie they would have to build over 140 Titans to get that saving back.
Is that actually right? Are Capital ship BPOs research costs being based upon sensible metrics? That a comparing an Erebus BPO at 72.5b original cost to a Megathron BPO at 1.25b (58x as much) results in research costs that are over 5,800 times as much? .. Your reasoning contains a major breach: You try to compare one ME 10 of an any ship with ship capital
We increased Bpo of any ship to ME 50+ in old system, except for a ship capital which is a bpo of assembly of component, the number of component being low. it was an economic nonsense to take up a BPO in ME 50 in them do the BPO was at the most in ME 7 / + 8
10% of 3 part gain ... 0
|
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
7
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 11:15:27 -
[14] - Quote
Jdestars wrote:...................... Your reasoning contains a major breach: You try to compare one ME 10 of an any ship with ship capital
We increased Bpo of any ship to ME 50+ in old system, except for a ship capital which is a bpo of assembly of component, the number of component being low. it was an economic nonsense to take up a BPO in ME 50 in them do the BPO was at the most in ME 7 / + 8
time for each Me level .. almost 1month ...
10% of 3 part gain ... 0
I don't think so. The 'old' system and the 'new' (Crius) system are essentially similar, but just with different maths and thus savings.
Given the other, very helpful answers previously and an understanding (that you cannot see in game) that Titans have a Research Rank exactly 10x that of a battleship, then I simply and genuinely wonder whether the 100x cost multiplier seen is an actual mistake - for 10x would make a lot more sense and actually produce more reasonable costs.
I shall petition it and see if I get a confirmatory response.
|
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
9
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 23:14:34 -
[15] - Quote
Just add...
With the new information presented in the Industry UI post Phoebe:
An Erebus' Base Cost for ME is just under 164b; whilst it's Base Cost for TE research is just under 69b.
Still seems large to me. |
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 13:55:34 -
[16] - Quote
The important in the construction of Capital Ship is to have a cost of reduced component but not at any price
The BPO of component must necessarily be good quality with regard to the wanted quantities of mineral
On the other hand for Bpo of assembly the number of parts,plays is reduced; In the old system the cost of research lab exceeded widely the gain of the economy of materials
Show Caption Pricer here List Bpo & Armortization Bill of ME 0 Bill of ME 3 Bill of ME 7 Bill of ME 50
(warning old price just showed for view impact of Me only)
Nota-á: My pricer takes into account the amortization(depreciation) of the investments (bpo, cost of preservation structures (fuel, renewal) figures are only indicative (not up to date based on a med Pos high secy)
M3-á: gain 6,74% of final price M7-á:-ágain 1,23% ME50:gain 0,93%
With BPO ME50 to save 300m with regard compared with M7 but with a cost and a prohibitive time of lab .So the Business plan keep by a hair ofnumber of ship Product and time to recover BPO research cost GǪ. Indeed it does more than 50 months of research or more than 4 years of cost of lab, (preservation of the Pos, Outpost, cost of protection of the installations, of the system, the sovereignty) how much do you estimate this?
The new system reflects only the already present constraints in the old system .. What of other one you expected?
|
Lucius Uta
Not really a corp
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 12:01:54 -
[17] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:
As an addendum, if the base requirement for a component is 1 on an unresearched blueprient, no matter what reductions you get or what batch size you do, it'll still be 1 per run.
Wish I knew that before researching my Small Blaster Battery blueprint Screw you CCP, you're still letting us over-research
|
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1512
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 15:36:06 -
[18] - Quote
Lucius Uta wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:
As an addendum, if the base requirement for a component is 1 on an unresearched blueprient, no matter what reductions you get or what batch size you do, it'll still be 1 per run.
Wish I knew that before researching my Small Blaster Battery blueprint
It was stated in the dev blogs...
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |