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Ridvanson
12
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Posted - 2014.10.29 19:26:29 -
[1] - Quote
The CSM minutes are out!
"CCP Greyscale said he thought the amount of isk earnt in W-space was still alot.
Corbexx replied that you could make more isk mining oreGÇÖs in Lowsec than you could in a C1 or C2. He also stated that while C5 and C6 cap escalations were good isk, running sites in your static without capital escalations would earn less than C4 space per person. He suggested maybe moving some of the isk from cap escalation to the actual site and limiting the amount a site could be escalated to encourage people doing stuff in there static.
Asayanami Said you could earn isk running incursions.
CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark.
Corbexx Gave rough estimates of how much you could earn in lower class wormholes. Along with the fact that lower class wormho les were alot more reliant on melted nanoribbons and thus affected alot more by market value of these items.
Ali agreed that C1 and c2 isk was ****, and that even compared to missions they were still had a higher level of entry."
I also recommend reading the chapter on POS, the word s h i t is being used a lot xD |
B0T0
X Legion
9
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Posted - 2014.10.29 19:46:34 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:CCP Masterplan - Right now alliances are not normal things in the game. They have their own set of Alliance IDs which is why they donGÇÖt exist and cannot own anything. We also want to give Alliance IDs in order to be able to allow them to have bookmarks, hangars etc etc. We don't plan on having this happen this year however, but we'll be adding the functionality on the back end to prepare for this. Then there is the longer term planning. Asayanami Dei - Alliance bookmarks! CCP Fozzie - We are laying the groundwork for them but we do not expect to have alliance bookmarks in the 2014 calendar year.
Soon...
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
387
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Posted - 2014.10.29 20:17:48 -
[3] - Quote
Some portions of the minutes have already gone live obviously but it was interesting to see from the first 30 pages how eager CCP are to start making more... "adventurous" changes to the game.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015
T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346
LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
155
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Posted - 2014.10.29 20:39:29 -
[4] - Quote
A good / long read :D Although it was quite disappointing how few of the people involved actually realised the effort behind running sites in Wormholes and how bad the payout is for the risk in the C1 - C4's. Its not like you just look at local and then undock in 100% safety.
C6 Wormhole blog
http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
805
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Posted - 2014.10.29 20:46:42 -
[5] - Quote
It was an interesting read.
There needs to be a industrial boom in wormhole space. Stuff needs to be more than about t3's (has to be a purpose to build in them). I think they get that though.
There was zero discussion about the frig wormhole (though I don't know if they have metrics on it atm).
Ice might be a possibility.
Interesting read though.
Yaay!!!!
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Pro TIps
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
70
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Posted - 2014.10.29 21:56:24 -
[6] - Quote
Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions.
If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP.
That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah.
I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. |
Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
477
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Posted - 2014.10.29 22:09:22 -
[7] - Quote
Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple.
Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad. |
B0T0
X Legion
9
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Posted - 2014.10.29 22:12:03 -
[8] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote:Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad. Nerfing one thing is faster that buffing everything else and more drama.
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
820
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Posted - 2014.10.29 22:13:55 -
[9] - Quote
B0T0 wrote:Incindir Mauser wrote:Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad. Nerfing one thing is faster that buffing everything else and more drama.
and the incursion tears.........
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3894
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Posted - 2014.10.29 22:17:22 -
[10] - Quote
Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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Viscis Breeze
No Vacancies
69
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Posted - 2014.10.30 01:09:21 -
[11] - Quote
I honestly don't know which is more scary for the future of wormhole space, CCP leaving wormholes alone or CCP trying to fix them.
Recruitment: http://bit.ly/1r4G5Pv
Website: http://www.no-vacancies.net/
Channel: No Vacancies
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
806
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Posted - 2014.10.30 02:46:16 -
[12] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on.
I'm thinking they are leaning on making them more siegeable (less blue balling). It tends to take a decent sized wormhole fleet to do them in c4's and below. That's mostly due to the amount of time it takes to reinforce (half hour to an hour or two per pos, not including encapping pos mods). Two plus if it's some type of stupid resiststar. Blowing through 80 million hit points is annoying. This is without dreads.
With the whole jump range changes going, killing pos's are going to be more relegated to a subcap fleet. This is more of a kspace issue that'll bleed into wormholes.
Yaay!!!!
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3894
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Posted - 2014.10.30 03:28:35 -
[13] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. I'm thinking they are leaning on making them more siegeable (less blue balling). It tends to take a decent sized wormhole fleet to do them in c4's and below. That's mostly due to the amount of time it takes to reinforce (half hour to an hour or two per pos, not including encapping pos mods). Two plus if it's some type of stupid resiststar. Blowing through 80 million hit points is annoying. This is without dreads. With the whole jump range changes going, killing pos's are going to be more relegated to a subcap fleet. This is more of a kspace issue that'll bleed into wormholes. what does ANY of that have to do with removing FFs? just lower the HP if you want them easier to kill...
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
303
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Posted - 2014.10.30 04:57:46 -
[14] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: ...Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on.
qft
You too can start failing today!
Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure
Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
953
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:01:53 -
[15] - Quote
Viscis Breeze wrote:I honestly don't know which is more scary for the future of wormhole space, CCP leaving wormholes alone or CCP trying to fix them. Could it be too much to say "both as scary as one another"?
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
1951
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Posted - 2014.10.30 08:05:56 -
[16] - Quote
In Corbexx we trust.
+1
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Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
90
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Posted - 2014.10.30 11:59:05 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. This.
Also, I know that offline towers might trigger peoples OCD, but it isn't broken? Buhu, you need to shoot a tower to set up at your moon, if you can't shoot a dead stick, you prob. shouldn't have that moon anyway. - Not broken, don't fix. |
Chitsa Jason
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
1284
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 12:57:20 -
[18] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on.
I cant believe I agree with Jack :)
Edit:
Technically they don't work very well. IE. Titan bumping for example. Still the shield mechanic is way better than any kind of stupid moreing (or whatever).
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
806
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 13:16:48 -
[19] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. I cant believe I agree with Jack :) Edit: Technically they don't work very well. IE. Titan bumping for example. Still the shield mechanic is way better than any kind of stupid mooring (or whatever).
Fact is we don't know what CCP is going after regarding pos and force field, mooring, field reductions, or the mechanics (well maybe you do Chitsa). I usually like to see proposals of what they are thinking before I condemn it to "its sucks" rants, but I also know CCP tends to just do things in wormhole space regardless of what we say afterwards.
Are there better options besides force fields, I am sure their are. Are force fields broken or not functioning in any specific way. No. If there were methods of improving the entire mechanic as a whole, I have no problem with that.
"It ain't broken, don't fix it" does not apply here because EVERYTHING in Eve is broken. We just adapted to it.
Yaay!!!!
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
835
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 14:04:06 -
[20] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on.
I'll be honest I really think they will struggle to have teh fuctionality of a ff with other stuff.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
241
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 14:55:11 -
[21] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote:Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad.
I would like to point out that the ISK costs in LP stores as well as the conversion ratio are major isk sinks in incursions. |
MooMooDachshundCow
Incertae Sedis
102
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 15:00:28 -
[22] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Incindir Mauser wrote:Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad. I would like to point out that the ISK costs in LP stores as well as the conversion ratio are major isk sinks in incursions.
"I mean, sure I made 3 billion isk this week - but I had to pay 25m to monetize that last 500m isk"
Not really, since you're making more money than you're spending. It's only an isk sink on a technicality, and that's intellectually dishonest because the isk faucet is 10x the size of any sink as far as I'm aware.
I suppose that they're a major isk sink relative to other sinks in incursions, but the net effect of incursions is still very positive even with a small isk sink to access your LP earnings.
Yeah, well, it's just like my-áopinion, man.
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O'nira
united system's commonwealth
40
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Posted - 2014.10.30 15:23:52 -
[23] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Incindir Mauser wrote:Pro TIps wrote:Ridvanson wrote:CCP Greyscale commented that comparing anything to incursions was unsound as they were potentially paying out to much anyway, and it wasn't a good benchmark. Unless incursion-runners suddenly got their own special currency that isn't ISK, it is obviously sound to compare every form of income in the game to incursions. If they nerf incursions, fine. Until that happens, whenever anyone wants ISK the smartest thing to do is log onto your highsec carebear alt and begin doing incursions for 150M+/hr plus concord LP. That incursion ISK affects the price of every item in the game. PLEX, tritanium, blablah. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but I'd like to tell Greyscale, because you can't dismiss an ISK faucet simply because you think it might be paying too much. If he thinks it's paying too much then ******* nerf it. It's that simple. Perhaps it's not that the incursion isk faucet is too good, just that everything else is just that bad. I would like to point out that the ISK costs in LP stores as well as the conversion ratio are major isk sinks in incursions.
since you pay tax when you sell the blue loot that too is an isk sink. |
Pro TIps
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 16:28:20 -
[24] - Quote
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:"I mean, sure I made 3 billion isk this week - but I had to pay 25m to monetize that last 500m isk" QFT |
Jess Tanner
Hard Knocks Inc. Irresponsible Use of Capital.
145
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 17:35:21 -
[25] - Quote
It's amazing how much more we see from Corbexx in these minutes compared to " " our " " previous wormhole " " representative " "...
Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back.
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Alundil
Isogen 5
739
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 19:14:21 -
[26] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. I'll be honest I really think they will struggle to have teh fuctionality of a ff with other stuff. Without violating NDA or any other CCP restricted concerns, can you elaborate on your statement? I have similar concerns (ff grants some area to stage from, an area to exchange items between pilots without access to corporate hangars, etc). Not least of which is with the sheer number of hulls typically kept in smas having those 'tethered' to some structure would likely look ridiculous (or at the very least like some Lego construction built by five year olds with crap hanging off all over the place).
I'm right behind you
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
844
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 19:51:44 -
[27] - Quote
Alundil wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. I'll be honest I really think they will struggle to have teh fuctionality of a ff with other stuff. Without violating NDA or any other CCP restricted concerns, can you elaborate on your statement? I have similar concerns (ff grants some area to stage from, an area to exchange items between pilots without access to corporate hangars, etc). Not least of which is with the sheer number of hulls typically kept in smas having those 'tethered' to some structure would likely look ridiculous (or at the very least like some Lego construction built by five year olds with crap hanging off all over the place).
you need to be able to see whats around you in wh space, lets say they have a tether (using tether as a example so dont think this will happen) will you be able to dscan while tethered, what about session changes.
in a ff your safe you can look about see whats around, swap ships safely dump mods for other people etc how would you do taht with tether?
we get say mini outposts (again this is a hypothetical example) while docked can we dscan can we see who is outside will this lead to station games etc etc
The ff provides a handy safe zone to be and move about see whats around drop mods change stuff over etc.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Pro TIps
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 20:21:56 -
[28] - Quote
I don't understand the tethering idea, but I would like to know more about 1) why CCP thinks forcefields are broken or have room for improvement (post-Titan-bumping fix) 2) what other concept they think would be better
My concern is this: I want to put a POS in lowsec and construct capital parts with a Thukker Component Assembly Array. That's a new item added in Crius that is specifically meant to encourage lowsec industry. It has a 15% material cost reduction, compared to 2% at a normal POS array.
My POS in lowsec might get attacked. If it becomes reinforced, my industry jobs will stop, and I will lose my materials (as I understand the mechanic.) That means I lose mats/ISK/time even if I defend my POS successfully when it comes out of reinforcement.
Now, it takes some work/risk on the part of an enemy to reinforce my POS. You need a fleet that is worth killing. If a fleet worth killing attacks my lowsec POS, I'll ask my K-space alliance to help me, and they probably will because content. If I'm lucky, I will get help before it even goes into reinforce, and I will be able to use my POS guns (if they aren't dead) and not lose mats if my side wins.
So if something changes with the POS mechanics, how will it affect CCP specifically trying to encourage POS manufacturing by introducing new items?
I also care about all the points others have raised about SMAs, cans to exchange items with friends inside a shield, D-scan, etc. I just want to make sure someone is considering this from an industry perspective as well, because it matters to me and to CCP. |
Pro TIps
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 20:33:09 -
[29] - Quote
Oh and another thing, if CCP want to further encourage risky POS manufacturing, they should improve the documentation on what happens when the tower goes into reinforcement (will I lose my materials? I think so, but NO DOCUMENTATION) and consider the very short amount of time it takes to reinforce a POS with a dread fleet, vs the large amount of industry jobs you need to have running in a POS to make it profitable.
Fuel for a large POS costs around 450M a month. It takes way under an hour to reinforce one if you have some dreads. That 15% material savings I can get by making components at a POS instead of a totally safe station in highsec only adds up if I am making at least 3 billion ISK worth of components each month. Considering the job times, it means I need to have almost a billion ISK of jobs running at one time just to break even.
Sorry to interject so much carebear industry stuff into this thread, but if you are happy with POS shields the way they are, find reasons why CCP shouldn't want to change them; or should want to change them in ways that you agree with.
Personally, I want better documentation of POS features/mechanics first, because I literally don't even know if I would lose my mats or not; it is an assumption I have made out of inexperience. If it does work this way, then I want the shield to have MORE EHP not less, because drive-by dreads would hurt my wallet and they might be able to do it so fast that no content is really created. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
739
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 21:12:35 -
[30] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Alundil wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Urg, same old garbage about 'POS tethering' instead of forcefields... Just leave the fkn forcefields! it's the only part of the current POS system that works really well, move on. I'll be honest I really think they will struggle to have teh fuctionality of a ff with other stuff. Without violating NDA or any other CCP restricted concerns, can you elaborate on your statement? I have similar concerns (ff grants some area to stage from, an area to exchange items between pilots without access to corporate hangars, etc). Not least of which is with the sheer number of hulls typically kept in smas having those 'tethered' to some structure would likely look ridiculous (or at the very least like some Lego construction built by five year olds with crap hanging off all over the place). you need to be able to see whats around you in wh space, lets say they have a tether (using tether as a example so dont think this will happen) will you be able to dscan while tethered, what about session changes. in a ff your safe you can look about see whats around, swap ships safely dump mods for other people etc how would you do taht with tether? we get say mini outposts (again this is a hypothetical example) while docked can we dscan can we see who is outside will this lead to station games etc etc The ff provides a handy safe zone to be and move about see whats around drop mods change stuff over etc. I agree with your uses of the FF and POS current mechanics. I can't help but wonder what CCP hopes to accomplish in a "player owned starbase" sans forcefield.
@ Pro TIps - I believe that CCP stated an intention to balance/address POS defense mechanism (ie. guns and ewar etc) as they realize as POS currently function there's virtually nothing a defender can do against a capital fleet intent on reinforcing the POS. I look forward to seeing what changes they have in mind for that particular aspect of POS mechanics.
I'm right behind you
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