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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2468
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:39:49 -
[751] - Quote
La Nariz wrote: It was never about preying on new players like every pro-highsec person wants to assert. It was about preying on people with more isk than brains. Lowsec corporations were not targets as much because they were more aware of the potential for violence than the deliberately ignorant highsec corporations.
You are ignorant of history. Awoxing began in nullsec. Nullsec and lowsec corporations were the first and primary targets of awoxing. It is fitting that it returns to a primarily nullsec/lowsec role. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:40:07 -
[752] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: To the other person who asked about corp robbery? No I do not see that being on the chopping bl;ock in the (what was the time frame?) next six months.
LOL
Good joke! I think you made some people a little anxious!
Forum Main
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2963
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:40:33 -
[753] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:La Nariz wrote: You are opening a can of worms if you want to talk fairness. Highsec ...
Sorry that was unclear. I talk about meta. i am talking about the felt "fairness" when doing something, like playing a game for example. A good game will be challenging but avoid to get to frustrating. Felt Effort wants to be rewarded. IMO this is still doable without "destroying EvE" or "create a theme park".
I agree with you but, there are better ways than this change. Like for example changing PVE from horrible grindy mess to engaging and fun.
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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
426
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:40:43 -
[754] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:La Nariz wrote:CSM dude when is highsec reward going to be nerfed? It isn't, too many players in other parts of the game partially finance themselves with said income. If you gutted that the ripples would go much further than you might expect. To the other person who asked about corp robbery? No I do not see that being on the chopping bl;ock in the (what was the time frame?) next six months. m
This is exactly why the income needs to be gutted.
Oh wait, us goons are the only idiots who make money where everyone else takes a dump.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
21352
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:40:48 -
[755] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:And those players that don't exclusively target ignorant new player corps in hisec If the corp leadership is ignorant of game mechanics then they shouldn't be leading a corp, and they definitely shouldn't be recruiting newbies. IMHO a corp that recruits newbies should be in a position to teach those newbies how to protect themselves, without knowledge of game mechanics they aren't in a position to do so, thus they shouldn't be recruiting newbies.
Quote:can move on to awoxing low sec corps, awoxing npc 0.0 corps, awoxing sov corps, and awoxing wormhole corps. If they target anyone that will recruit them, then they have a cluster's worth of awoxing opportunity ahead of them. Post change lowsec, wh's and null will be the only places in which awoxing can happen, the leadership of corps in those areas of space tend to be more savvy than the average highsec corp and thus less likely to recruit without practising due diligence; although there are always exceptions.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2963
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:42:03 -
[756] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote: It was never about preying on new players like every pro-highsec person wants to assert. It was about preying on people with more isk than brains. Lowsec corporations were not targets as much because they were more aware of the potential for violence than the deliberately ignorant highsec corporations.
You are ignorant of history. Awoxing began in nullsec. Nullsec and lowsec corporations were the first and primary targets of awoxing. Awoxing began in nullsec. It is fitting that it returns to a primarily nullsec/lowsec role.
I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:42:23 -
[757] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:La Nariz wrote:CSM dude when is highsec reward going to be nerfed? It isn't, too many players in other parts of the game partially finance themselves with said income. If you gutted that the ripples would go much further than you might expect. To the other person who asked about corp robbery? No I do not see that being on the chopping bl;ock in the (what was the time frame?) next six months. m Don't fix it because to fix it we'd have to fix the game. What the christ.
No, he is saying that all the null people keep asserting that hi-sec makes way more than them and they have data that shows something different.
And yes, this change is specifically being looked at because of the ones who specifically target new players.
YOu could read that in the minutes but I know that isn't going to happen or be accepted. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2468
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:44:52 -
[758] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:And those players that don't exclusively target ignorant new player corps in hisec If the corp leadership is ignorant of game mechanics then they shouldn't be leading a corp, and they definitely shouldn't be recruiting newbies. IMHO a corp that recruits newbies should be in a position to teach those newbies how to protect themselves, without knowledge of game mechanics they aren't in a position to do so, thus they shouldn't be recruiting newbies. [/quote] Knowledge of current game mechanics dictates that the wisest course is not recruiting players with little to no history unless you already know them out of game. That's the problem.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:can move on to awoxing low sec corps, awoxing npc 0.0 corps, awoxing sov corps, and awoxing wormhole corps. If they target anyone that will recruit them, then they have a cluster's worth of awoxing opportunity ahead of them. Post change lowsec, wh's and null will be the only places in which awoxing can happen, the leadership of corps in those areas of space tend to be more savvy than the average highsec corp and thus less likely to recruit without practising due diligence; although there are always exceptions. Awoxing began in null, without the use of any mechanics to avoid concord because there was no concord to avoid. And the null entities in question (pandemic legion and goonswarm) were among the savviest entities back then as they are now. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2469
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:46:08 -
[759] - Quote
La Nariz wrote: I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
No, we aren't. Read the title of this thread. We're talking about awoxing, not hisec. If you want to lament the advantages of hisec, go make another thread. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2963
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:48:28 -
[760] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote: No, he is saying that all the null people keep asserting that hi-sec makes way more than them and they have data that shows something different.
And yes, this change is specifically being looked at because of the ones who specifically target new players.
YOu could read that in the minutes but I know that isn't going to happen or be accepted.
"It isn't, too many players in other parts of the game partially finance themselves with said income. If you gutted that the ripples would go much further than you might expect."
Hmm oh look at that could that mean that players outside of highsec have to use highsec as an income source. Imagine that npc alt.
CCP you forgot to remove npc corps posting abilities with the new forums.
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Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
138
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:49:08 -
[761] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:And those players that don't exclusively target ignorant new player corps in hisec If the corp leadership is ignorant of game mechanics then they shouldn't be leading a corp, and they definitely shouldn't be recruiting newbies. IMHO a corp that recruits newbies should be in a position to teach those newbies how to protect themselves, without knowledge of game mechanics they aren't in a position to do so, thus they shouldn't be recruiting newbies.
So a group of friends that just started the game together should not make their own corporation, if they desire, because ther are newbies? And this group of friends should not invite other players in the same boat?
I can see there is a problem with player retention if the first thing a new player hears is; you should not do that. Espesially in a game where fortune favors the bold.
The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
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Marsha Mallow
1656
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:49:17 -
[762] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:You are ignorant of history. Awoxing began in nullsec. Nullsec and lowsec corporations were the first and primary targets of awoxing. It is fitting that it returns to a primarily nullsec/lowsec role. Wrong. They were called assassinations or sprees before the awox tag.
DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2963
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:49:20 -
[763] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote: I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
No, we aren't. Read the title of this thread. We're talking about awoxing, not hisec. If you want to lament the advantages of hisec, go make another thread.
Yes we are, does CONCORD respond in null/low/wh?
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 22:49:47 -
[764] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote: I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
No, we aren't. Read the title of this thread. We're talking about awoxing, not hisec. If you want to lament the advantages of hisec, go make another thread.
Read the minutes...it specifically talks about awox in hi-sec against noob corps and the new players.
And that is what the OP referenced.
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
7001
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:49:54 -
[765] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote: I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
No, we aren't. Read the title of this thread. We're talking about awoxing, not hisec. If you want to lament the advantages of hisec, go make another thread.
Grrr, Highsec.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:50:08 -
[766] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote: I'm aware of that those corporations are the same as the lowsec example I provided. We're here talking about highsec.
No, we aren't. Read the title of this thread. We're talking about awoxing, not hisec. If you want to lament the advantages of hisec, go make another thread.
Read the CSM notes, about which this thread is based.
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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
426
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:53:32 -
[767] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:La Nariz wrote:CSM dude when is highsec reward going to be nerfed? It isn't, too many players in other parts of the game partially finance themselves with said income. If you gutted that the ripples would go much further than you might expect. To the other person who asked about corp robbery? No I do not see that being on the chopping bl;ock in the (what was the time frame?) next six months. m
I mean seriously Mike, imagine if people went to PVP areas for the resources and income potential that was there...
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
New Order Diplomat, contact me for all your New Order enquiries!
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2469
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 22:54:14 -
[768] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:You are ignorant of history. Awoxing began in nullsec. Nullsec and lowsec corporations were the first and primary targets of awoxing. It is fitting that it returns to a primarily nullsec/lowsec role. Wrong. They were called assassinations or sprees before the awox tag. Cool. *looks at title* I see the word awox. Go make a thread about sprees or "assassinations." Might as well bring up "bounty hunting" while you're going on about terms that are no longer relevant. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2963
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 22:55:22 -
[769] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote: I mean seriously Mike, imagine if people went to PVP areas for the resources and income potential that was there...
Imagine if there were areas without concord that had limited resources that were worth the :effort: and fighting over.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6331
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:55:35 -
[770] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:
To the other person who asked about corp robbery? No I do not see that being on the chopping bl;ock in the (what was the time frame?) next six months.
m
fair enough, cheers.
any encouraging words regarding corp-corp interactions i.e. wardecs ?
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2469
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Posted - 2014.10.31 22:58:04 -
[771] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: I mean seriously Mike, imagine if people went to PVP areas for the resources and income potential that was there...
Imagine if there were areas without concord that had limited resources that were worth the :effort: and fighting over. Where'd you guys leave the keys to fountain, if you don't mind my asking? Seeing as it's not worth the :effort: ... |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
21353
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 22:58:53 -
[772] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Knowledge of current game mechanics dictates that the wisest course is not recruiting players with little to no history unless you already know them out of game. That's the problem. I can't say I disagree tbh. Personally I won't join a corp that doesn't run checks on recruits, it shows incompetence and laziness IMHO.
Quote:Awoxing began in null, without the use of any mechanics to avoid concord because there was no concord to avoid. And the null entities in question (pandemic legion and goonswarm) were among the savviest entities back then as they are now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but awoxing back then was relatively rare and those entities have learnt from it, and embraced the practice to use against others.
Nowadays it's a well publicised practice, yet people still recruit obvious awoxers without doing the most basic of checks, you only have to look at the amount of awoxs Psychotic Monk managed to pull off despite the characters he was using having killboards full of green on green shenanigans.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2965
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Posted - 2014.10.31 23:01:13 -
[773] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: I mean seriously Mike, imagine if people went to PVP areas for the resources and income potential that was there...
Imagine if there were areas without concord that had limited resources that were worth the :effort: and fighting over. Where'd you guys leave the keys to fountain, if you don't mind my asking? Seeing as it's not worth the :effort: ...
There's already a thread I made about this in the past and provided data for that shows why you are full of swap.avi on this point.
-see post history.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2469
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:07:33 -
[774] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Knowledge of current game mechanics dictates that the wisest course is not recruiting players with little to no history unless you already know them out of game. That's the problem. I can't say I disagree tbh. Personally I won't join a corp that doesn't run checks on recruits, it shows incompetence and laziness IMHO. Quote:Awoxing began in null, without the use of any mechanics to avoid concord because there was no concord to avoid. And the null entities in question (pandemic legion and goonswarm) were among the savviest entities back then as they are now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but awoxing back then was relatively rare and those entities have learnt from it, and embraced the practice to use against others. Nowadays it's a well publicised practice, yet people still recruit obvious awoxers without doing the most basic of checks, you only have to look at the amount of awoxs Psychotic Monk managed to pull off despite the characters he was using having killboards full of green on green shenanigans. Yes, awoxing has gotten less revenant in null sec, but every now and then it makes cnn, forbes, or the bbc. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2469
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:10:46 -
[775] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:La Nariz wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: I mean seriously Mike, imagine if people went to PVP areas for the resources and income potential that was there...
Imagine if there were areas without concord that had limited resources that were worth the :effort: and fighting over. Where'd you guys leave the keys to fountain, if you don't mind my asking? Seeing as it's not worth the :effort: ... There's already a thread I made about this in the past and provided data for that shows why you are full of swap.avi on this point. -see post history. I'll read your post, but I'm not wading through 20+ pages of post history, given that most of the first 5-10 pages of your post history link back to this thread. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
21354
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Posted - 2014.10.31 23:13:30 -
[776] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:And those players that don't exclusively target ignorant new player corps in hisec If the corp leadership is ignorant of game mechanics then they shouldn't be leading a corp, and they definitely shouldn't be recruiting newbies. IMHO a corp that recruits newbies should be in a position to teach those newbies how to protect themselves, without knowledge of game mechanics they aren't in a position to do so, thus they shouldn't be recruiting newbies. So a group of friends that just started the game together should not make their own corporation, if they desire, because ther are newbies? And this group of friends should not invite other players in the same boat? I can see there is a problem with player retention if the first thing a new player hears is; you should not do that. Espesially in a game where fortune favors the bold. You're welcome to start a corp for fellow newbies, but I believe that it is a bad idea to do so.
If a newbie wishes to do so then I feel that they should at least familiarise themselves with the consequences of doing so, such as wardecs etc, and how to act when those things occur. If corp leadership is ignorant of game mechanics then it is a case of the blind leading the blind, and more experienced players can, and will take advantage of said ignorance. Which does nothing for player retention or the lifespan of the corp.
TL;DR If you want to start a corp with fellow newbies then do so, but familiarise yourself with game mechanics and the consequences of being in a player corp before you do so, even if it's only reading through resources such as the Eve Uni Wiki.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Marty McGigglefist
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.10.31 23:27:05 -
[777] - Quote
Yes this is an alt. Sorry.
Black Pedro wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dave Stark wrote: a better fix would be to make corps worth being in, and fighting for, rather than locking people in to them during wardecs.
Removing awoxing is part of that process. If you don't have to be paranoid of your own corp mates more than of other people, corps start being easier to be in. Right now it's easier to shoot your own corp than other people, that's just silly. If corp theft is much harder with good roles control, no easy awoxing (still suicide ganking etc), and the kick queue they are introducing, it's easier to make it harder to avoid wardecs, and to give corps things worth fighting for. If this is true than I actually support this change. Getting people out of NPC corps and into player corps that can be meaningfully wardecced (that is no longer drop/fold corp) would be a great thing and result in a net increase of conflict for highsec. But from what I am hearing that is not the case. It looks like a misguided "save the newbie" play that will just make highsec more slightly more safe. There is already the corp kick queue coming up which is a nerf to awoxing. Save this change to be part of a package of overhauls to the corporation mechanics that will get players into wardeccable player corps - nerfs/changes to being in NPC corps, better role management to reduce risks from new corp members etc.
This topic clearly has people on both sides of the argument all riled up. As far as I can tell, both are correct.
Awoxing is a valid form of game play in Eve, a game labeled as a sandbox style game. Awoxing does adversely affect (effect?) new players who simply don't know the many complexities of eve. Especially new players attempting to run a corp.
Now as far as I can see, there is no way to really determine which is more detrimental to EVE unless CCP has some actual numbers to look over and truly see whats happening, and the likely hood of any of us getting those numbers is next to nil. So this debate can go on and on, filled with insults and the "your way of playing is wrong, clearly I play internet spaceships in the correct and intended fashion," or we can actually look at whats broken and trying to find plausible fixes to pitch to the next CSM group.
I don't have many suggestions to give, but something I've been kicking around regarding wardec dodging:
Corp A war dec's Corp B Corp B member wants to avoid a prolonged war/interruption to his/her preferred game play style so they opt to drop corp. Instead of instantly falling back into an NPC corp, Corp B member enters a drop queue, where they will be released from the Corp only after the initial 7 day war period has ended, or a mutual end to the war/surrender that actually works. They will be able to drop from the corp even if Corp A decides to renew the war.
This seems to make dec dodging harder but not impossible while still making players experience valid game mechanics. This seems to remove the issue of having players that drop to NPC have a war following them, which seems to be something that's not possible since NPC corps cannot have any type of war against them. Though we do see this idea suggested a lot.
Some might say that since its a sandbox game, nobody should be able to force you into something you do not want. True, but if that is the case, then your limiting the other players ability to play in their sandbox and shoot you. Both cannot be had. Hence the idea of trade offs.
Clearly this isn't all the way thought out and may possibly be the worst idea ever. Feel free to critique/flame/ignore as you see fit. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
324
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:36:16 -
[778] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:La Nariz wrote:CSM dude when is highsec reward going to be nerfed? It isn't, too many players in other parts of the game partially finance themselves with said income. If you gutted that the ripples would go much further than you might expect. Sounds like you just admitted that highsec income needs to be nerfed to me, if people who live in null/low finance themselves in highsec because the rewards are higher there. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1642
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:36:54 -
[779] - Quote
Marty McGigglefist wrote: I don't have many suggestions to give, but something I've been kicking around regarding wardec dodging:
Corp A war dec's Corp B Corp B member wants to avoid a prolonged war/interruption to his/her preferred game play style so they opt to drop corp. Instead of instantly falling back into an NPC corp, Corp B member enters a drop queue, where they will be released from the Corp only after the initial 7 day war period has ended, or a mutual end to the war/surrender that actually works. They will be able to drop from the corp even if Corp A decides to renew the war.
This seems to make dec dodging harder but not impossible while still making players experience valid game mechanics. This seems to remove the issue of having players that drop to NPC have a war following them, which seems to be something that's not possible since NPC corps cannot have any type of war against them. Though we do see this idea suggested a lot.
Some might say that since its a sandbox game, nobody should be able to force you into something you do not want. True, but if that is the case, then your limiting the other players ability to play in their sandbox and shoot you. Both cannot be had. Hence the idea of trade offs.
Clearly this isn't all the way thought out and may possibly be the worst idea ever. Feel free to critique/flame/ignore as you see fit.
So Corp B members dock up for a week and don't play the game. You are attempting to punish people for getting Wardec'ed. It will never work. You need something in space worth fighting over. And you need the ability to get a 'fair' fight. Sure this is EVE and fights aren't set up to be fair, but if it's a one sided shooting match, forcing the other guy into it is silly.
I've made a number of suggestions of things worth fighting over in the past. As have other people. But the carrot is the way to get people out in space fighting when Wardec'ed. The stick is big enough already since the aggressor gets to choose targets they are sure they can beat. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10436
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:56:22 -
[780] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:And there was a reason it was changed - because people simply harassed other people by constantly wardeccing them when they stood no change of defending themselves, making it pointless to create corps with players that undock. 2m to effectively switch off concord was way too low. Most of the aggressors might have agreed it was awesome, being super cheap PvP against easy targets, but most of thsoe target probably didn't.
Horseshit.
Go ahead and pull up the dev blog for that change. It specifically states that the changes were intended to buff wardecs, since they were too easy to avoid with the dec shield exploit. (but of course the risk averse shitheels of highsec found another way to cheat their way past actually playing the game)
That's why it got changed.
Not because of this myth that somehow PvP in highsec isn't supposed to happen.
Never spout that lie again.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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