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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
236
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Posted - 2014.11.02 12:07:35 -
[1] - Quote
Half asleep idea, possibly terrible, bear with me
Target Painters have a couple of obvious, oft mentioned problems
Quote:
- They're not really that useful (for guns in particular) unless there's an unusually large disparity between weapon size and target
- Because they affect a stat that the pilot can't directly control during a fight, there's no interesting/realistic gameplay around countering them in the way TD/Damps offer
Proposing that in addition to increasing the target's effective Sig Radius, TPs should also decrease the target's effective (but not actual) speed for weapons calculations.
(numbers pulled out of my arse for example purposes)
So for example a 150m sig ship going 1000m/s might become a 180m sized ship, still actually travelling at 1000m/s but being tracked as if it were moving 800m/s.
Helps gun tracking, helps missiles, fits in nicely with Minmatar's racial theme.
To the second issue, particularly in light of this extra buff, they should perhaps work entirely in fairly sharp falloff. This allows an actual counter through clever pilotting and again kinda sits nicely with the Minmatar flavour.
To clarify the actual numbers are way beyond me and my Fisher Price calculator but I dunno, interesting idea?
Travelling at the speed of love.
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
74
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Posted - 2014.11.02 12:11:23 -
[2] - Quote
Worth a half asleep +1 |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
937
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Posted - 2014.11.02 12:21:54 -
[3] - Quote
i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km?
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
440
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Posted - 2014.11.02 12:39:23 -
[4] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km?
I think that is more because of how heavilly speed affects damage calculations. If that was weighted more to sig, it would balance better. Webs will always remain desirable as tackle - painters step up as more effective DPS related ewar thus improving choices/decisions.
Tl;dr: speed vs sig needs swapped in damage calculations. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
236
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Posted - 2014.11.02 13:00:33 -
[5] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km? You're right but that doesn't really answer why the Vigil/Bellicose TP bonus is so widely ignored. Fixing TP in comparison to 60km webs seems impossible but that's the same TD>Neuts, Damps>Scrams.
In the end you have to take Webs/Neuts/Scrams out of the equation and fix racial ewar on their own merits.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
937
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Posted - 2014.11.02 13:26:52 -
[6] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Harvey James wrote:i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km? You're right but that doesn't really answer why the Vigil/Bellicose TP bonus is so widely ignored. Fixing TP in comparison to 60km webs seems impossible but that's the same TD>Neuts, Damps>Scrams. In the end you have to take Webs/Neuts/Scrams out of the equation and fix racial ewar on their own merits.
i think you do have too address webs and perhaps damps aswell before TP's can become more useful
webs and damps should get a nerf in effectiveness .. and reducing the web range on recons aswell as the warfare link that boosts them out too crazy ranges likes 100km .. faction webs range probably needs a nerf too..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
440
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Posted - 2014.11.02 13:32:57 -
[7] - Quote
Webs would be better served increasing DPS less but they are still very necessary for tackle so a direct web nerf isnt ideal. Like I say, if the difference speed and sig made to incoming dps switched, a LOT of things would change. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
855
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Posted - 2014.11.02 14:21:10 -
[8] - Quote
A little more options for bonused target painting wouldn't hurt, it can be moderately useful when you have ship bonus + faction TP + mind linked electronic superiority link. Problem is there aren't many platforms to do that over a wider variation of scenarios (or the ships are better used for their other roles) though there is the side effect of increasing the feasibility of blapping sup caps with capital weapons (fighter bombers and xl turrets). |
Arla Sarain
91
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Posted - 2014.11.02 14:33:14 -
[9] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Half asleep idea, possibly terrible, bear with me Target Painters have a couple of obvious, oft mentioned problems Quote:
- They're not really that useful (for guns in particular) unless there's an unusually large disparity between weapon size and target
- Because they affect a stat that the pilot can't directly control during a fight, there's no interesting/realistic gameplay around countering them in the way TD/Damps offer
Proposing that in addition to increasing the target's effective Sig Radius, TPs should also decrease the target's effective (but not actual) speed for weapons calculations. (numbers pulled out of my arse for example purposes)So for example a 150m sig ship going 1000m/s might become a 180m sized ship, still actually travelling at 1000m/s but being tracked as if it were moving 800m/s. There is no point. That is the actual effect of sig radius. Making something effectively slower without regards to the raw speed. Whether it's verbally interpreted as bigger or smaller size, the actual fact is that a larger sig is effectively giving a leeway to slower guns, hence making you slower.
Your suggestion can be mathematically interpreted it in another 2 ways - A)The tracking speed of the attackers guns is increased, against the TPd target B)The sig penalty is increased further.
Thats all it does.
Bottom line: what you are saying is identical to giving TPs a flat buff. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
238
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Posted - 2014.11.02 14:49:48 -
[10] - Quote
Forgive my math because, well, just do but isn't that only true if the suggested module reduced speed and increased sig by the same %? If it were biased towards say the speed aspect wouldn't that then make it more effective against certain targets than a flat buff to TPs?
As I say I just pulled the numbers out my arse because brighter people than me create the game but that's how I read that scary formula, perhaps I'm wrong?
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1970
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Posted - 2014.11.02 14:53:31 -
[11] - Quote
TP's do this. its just not as useful as range and positioning control and the actual modifier for TP's (+40%) is much lower than than webs (1/0.4 = 2.5 = +150%).
but should you really be comparing TP's to webs? should it not be more like TP's to tracking disruptors?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
29
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Posted - 2014.11.02 16:09:20 -
[12] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote: There is no point. That is the actual effect of sig radius. Making something effectively slower without regards to the raw speed. Whether it's verbally interpreted as bigger or smaller size, the actual fact is that a larger sig is effectively giving a leeway to slower guns, hence making you slower.
Your suggestion can be mathematically interpreted it in another 2 ways - A)The tracking speed of the attackers guns is increased, against the TPd target B)The sig penalty is increased further.
Thats all it does.
Bottom line: what you are saying is identical to giving TPs a flat buff.
Strictly speaking that's not true because if the Signature of the weapon exceeds the Signature Radius of the target, the damage modifier doesn't go over 100%. With most guns that happens without a Target Painter against same-sized ships, and certainly has a lot less net impact than Speed vs Tracking when shooting down a size. |
stoicfaux
5377
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Posted - 2014.11.02 16:37:58 -
[13] - Quote
Have a new class of TPs that improves the owner's gun Signature Resolution (as opposed to increasing the target's sig size.)
The features of a Sig Res TP would be that: * reducing a gun's Sig Res helps more against small targets than increasing a small target's sig, (e.g. large guns versus cruisers) * conversely, a Sig Res TP wouldn't be as effective against targets of the same size or larger, (e.g. large guns versus battleships) * it would stack with TPs, * Sig Res TPs would only apply to the attacking ship (whereas a TP helps (almost) everyone on grid.)
I would be similar in concept to a missile rigor bonus (reduces explosion radius), but for guns (reduces Signature Resolution.)
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
417
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Posted - 2014.11.02 16:44:18 -
[14] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Target Painters ... helps missiles, fits in nicely with Minmatar's racial theme...
Ohoh, I seem to have a bad influence on you. Now you start to exaggerate like me
Right now I am not sure if I said it once but while being "lore wise" on the minmatar theme correct, painters do need a much larger optimal range, so I wouldn't mind a buff to them or two.
signature
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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
7199
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Posted - 2014.11.02 16:49:52 -
[15] - Quote
This would certainly help a lot- Target Painters are usually underestimated- but they can be damn useful in the right situations!
With this, they'd definitely gain more popularity as well as effectiveness.
+1
A City made of Wood is built in the forest
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains
But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven.
Jovian Proverb GÖâ
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
395
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Posted - 2014.11.02 17:33:50 -
[16] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:TP's do this. its just not as useful as range and positioning control and the actual modifier for TP's (+40%) is much lower than webs (1/0.4 = 2.5 = +150%).
but should you really be comparing TP's to webs? should it not be more like TP's to tracking disruptors?
Possibly seeing as tp has about 40km optimal and about 100km falloff
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015
T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346
LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Scuzzy Logic
Nightmare Machinery
145
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Posted - 2014.11.02 17:59:48 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:TP's do this. its just not as useful as range and positioning control and the actual modifier for TP's (+40%) is much lower than webs (1/0.4 = 2.5 = +150%).
but should you really be comparing TP's to webs? should it not be more like TP's to tracking disruptors?
The problem comes when you've got a ship like the Rapier with both bonuses. Besides the lower expense of getting range out of TPs, the bonus to webs is the only one to get used, ever, making half the EWAR bonuses redundant.
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Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
162
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:01:16 -
[18] - Quote
Target painters probably ought to be buffed a little. I think that it's useful to point out that webs have different roles in different situations, and while range control is a big factor in why people use webs, they're just as useful as an application tool for bigger ships, which is a role overlap with target painters. The range of a target painter, I think, should be retained even with a buff to their sig bonus because the balance trade off with webs is the sacrifice of range dictation. |
Scuzzy Logic
Nightmare Machinery
145
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:03:26 -
[19] - Quote
IMHO, TPs should get some kind of crit chance bonus or something unrelated to how they affect signature, just as not to make all missile boats/drakes into frigate blapping machines. |
Arla Sarain
92
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:13:21 -
[20] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Forgive my math because, well, just do but isn't that only true if the suggested module reduced speed and increased sig by the same %? If it were biased towards say the speed aspect wouldn't that then make it more effective against certain targets than a flat buff to TPs? Within the context of the thread, I assume the purpose of your change is to make things easier to hit with turrets by slowing them down.
Tracking formula depends on product of the ratios between: Angular speed/Tracking Speed and Gun size/Sig
Desirable effect for the Victim occurs when the product of these ratios is increased. Angular Speed and Sig are in an inverse relationship.
A simple example is to evaluate the product with 1s everywhere then change either the Angular or the Sig.
Normal conditions: 1/1 * 1/1 =1 Speed decrease: 0.8/1 * 1/1 = 0.8 Signature increase: 1/1 * 1/1.25 = 0.8
The last two are identical and demonstrate how what you are proposing is already present. The net effect is that the deviation of signature radius from its standard value is identical to the change in velocity with the actual change in raw velocity. Therefore TPs already consider the target velocity to be a portion less - the exact portion is determined by the inverse of the sig deviation from the standard. A TP increasing sig by 40% is virtually decreasing speed by 29%.
Gaan Cathal wrote:Strictly speaking that's not true because if the Signature of the weapon exceeds the Signature Radius of the target, the damage modifier doesn't go over 100%. I do not see the relevance of what you are saying in regards to this topic. I do not recall mentioning damage, only speed and the relative ease of tracking something. |
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
242
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:21:51 -
[21] - Quote
Thankyou for the baby steps, colour this pointless.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
346
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:21:51 -
[22] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:
Proposing that in addition to increasing the target's effective Sig Radius, TPs should also decrease the target's effective (but not actual) speed for weapons calculations.
(numbers pulled out of my arse for example purposes)
So for example a 150m sig ship going 1000m/s might become a 180m sized ship, still actually travelling at 1000m/s but being tracked as if it were moving 800m/s.
Ummm, this is basically how TPs work.
Basically the super quick run down version of how tracking works is it basically compares the targets transversal, to your gun transversal, then it compares the targets sig radius to your gun sig radius. So by either slowing the target down, or by blooming his sig radius, you can track the target better.
When you look at the design between TP and webs, webs are more effective, but TP have a longer range (If you only look at the tracking aspect).
But this is changed when you look specifically at the Rapier/Huginn... 1. In PVP, being able to not only track the target better, but dictating range is much more important then just tracking the target better. Also, slowing down that target as it tries to burn back to the gate, is way more effective then just blowing his sig up. Face it, these are PVP boats, not PVE. Net Result = Webs >> TP
2. We cannot see signature radius change on our overviews because there is no setting for it (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4966803#post4966803). So part of it is psychological because we cannot actually see anything change on the target itself, yet when we apply a web to someone, we can physically see their velocity slow down, and their transversal velocity decrease. Net Result = Webs > TP
3. Their webs can reach out as far as the Gallente Recons can point, which means there's no reason to pick TP over webs unless you have enough webs on the target where anymore webs won't be any realistic benefit to your fleet. Net Result = Webs > TP
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
443
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Posted - 2014.11.02 19:31:19 -
[23] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:So by either slowing the target down, or by blooming his sig radius, you can track the target better.
Yup and whilst I've not looked at the math to get the precise numbers, I'd be willing to bet you need multiple TPs to improve the damage to the same degree a single web does.
Speed mitgating everything so well is why webs boost applied damage so much - it's less about webbing power itself and more about the damage formulae.
There is no way to boost painters without screwing with that without at the same time making a combination of webs/painters mean even a phoenix can blap anything. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
196
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Posted - 2014.11.03 00:43:46 -
[24] - Quote
I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
76
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Posted - 2014.11.03 01:12:47 -
[25] - Quote
I was thinking this would only allow a buff to the ship using the TP rather than the whole fleet. So a small buff to TP's for ships using it. Other ships in fleet still get the same flat buff TP's give currently. This would create variation in fleets as you would need to calculate whether everyone carrying their own TP is worth the extra DPS it provides on fast ships, or if bringing some dedicated web ships is better. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
419
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Posted - 2014.11.03 02:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this.
Turn on the heat - your painter does 43.7 now
signature
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
197
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:36:56 -
[27] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:James Baboli wrote:I would like to see the t2 TP moved up to a 40% signature radius bonus before skills, and everything else moved up or down in proportion to this. Turn on the heat - your painter does 43.7 now I want that before heat, because then it does comparable things against an armor ship that a web does to a shield ship, and negates almost all issues with turret application. also helps missiles more, which seems to be your current personal crusade.
Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
157
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:00:59 -
[28] - Quote
As others have stated, blooming a target's sig is mathematically identical to reducing the target's speed, for tracking equations. You get the same result if you reduce the target's speed by 20% as you do if you bloom the target's sig by 25% (1.25 being the inverse of 0.8). There's no bias towards velocity in the equations, nor are there any caps except the 100% accuracy cap.
Now, missiles often get more benefit from sig bloom than from speed simply because their equation is the lesser of the ratio of the sig radius to the explosion radius or the normal equation which accounts for both sig and speed. That means even if the target is dead stationary, you still won't do 100% damage to a target smaller than your explosion radius. TPs always increase missile damage up to the 100% damage cap. The same is not true for webs.
Now, I tend to agree that TPs are pretty weak, but your suggestion is 100% identical to a flat buff to their bonus. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1851
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:05:18 -
[29] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i think it comes back too webs being so powerful .. why use a TP on a rapier when you could have webs reaching 60km?
Because with info links a t2 target painter has 84% effect. In other words MORe than an extra web, AND it does not stack against webs. So If you have 2 rapiers in your fleet having one with 2 webs and 1 painter and the other with 1 web and 2 painters wield the LARGEST result. Also its a fallacy that TP do not help turrets, they help turrets as well as they help missiles. It is just that missiles have a more abrupt curve on the damage application so you feel the NEED to use the TP when at one moment you do X damage, and after a slight increase in velocity of target.. suddenly you deal 1/5th of the damage.
Also they make ships easier to lock by larger ships.
The current problem of TP is that larger ships are NOT WORTH BRINGING to a combat (i.e battleships).
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1851
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:07:16 -
[30] - Quote
Also, add a module/ rig that reduces your signature by some 5% and 7% (t1/t2) and suddenly people would feel the need to use the TP more.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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