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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
738
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Posted - 2014.11.04 10:02:03 -
[1] - Quote
The nestor gets a lot of stick for not being very useable yet being very expensive and having an odd set of bonuses. Discussing this the other day I wondered if the following would give them greater utility without being OP:
Give the nestor the CBC ability to fit warfare links in exchange for the hacking bonuses (lorewise the computer systems are retasked). This would keep the utility as a command ship lower than a dedicated CS but provide additional support for gangs in WH's (or anywhere else). This would make the Nestor unique in being the only BS with this ability but would also make it a much more useful mobile C&C ship capable of providing limited combat boosts along with RR capabilities and drone fire support. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
476
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Posted - 2014.11.04 10:41:13 -
[2] - Quote
It's Nestor so I say the bonus has to be towards info and siege only. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6409
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Posted - 2014.11.04 11:37:14 -
[3] - Quote
i actually like this idea, +1
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Tij Lamor
Bluenose Trading
9
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Posted - 2014.11.04 12:07:01 -
[4] - Quote
The price remains a serious impediment since the ship is likely to be a primary target in any combat support role. With mass already reduce to battle cruiser level and warfare links, why not simply call it a battle cruiser (or pocket battleship) and reduce the lp cost to a level where the ship makes sense. |
Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp The Bastion
365
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Posted - 2014.11.04 12:13:31 -
[5] - Quote
Tij Lamor wrote:The price remains a serious impediment since the ship is likely to be a primary target in any combat support role. With mass already reduce to battle cruiser level and warfare links, why not simply call it a battle cruiser (or pocket battleship) and reduce the lp cost to a level where the ship makes sense.
Iirc, the LP cost is just as any other BS from LP-Stores. The difference is, that SoE LP is somewhere around 2k ISK / LP because of the probe launchers etc, so you will rarely find people who exchange their LP and sell the Nestor for 'cheap', as they would make more ISK by running for launchers and probes. If you do find one, you will likely not fly the Nestor - you will buy it and relist it.
That's why they're so expensive. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
739
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Posted - 2014.11.04 12:40:02 -
[6] - Quote
So with better utility the price would come down as people would use them. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
192
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Posted - 2014.11.04 12:49:23 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Has said the hacking bonuses were freebies so they won't trade them off for anything as they don't see them as a factor when balancing |
Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp The Bastion
365
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Posted - 2014.11.04 12:55:48 -
[8] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So with better utility the price would come down as people would use them.
No, not really. They would still have LP-Cost attached to them, and they would only be cash'd out by people having huuuuuge amounts of SoE LP, as selling 40, 80, 120 or how many Launchers you can think of would take a lot longer to sell than a few Nestors. So, yes, their price would drop, but probably only by 100m or so. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
741
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Posted - 2014.11.05 11:07:02 -
[9] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So with better utility the price would come down as people would use them. No, not really. They would still have LP-Cost attached to them, and they would only be cash'd out by people having huuuuuge amounts of SoE LP, as selling 40, 80, 120 or how many Launchers you can think of would take a lot longer to sell than a few Nestors. So, yes, their price would drop, but probably only by 100m or so. Edit: It isn't the price that makes them unfavourable, it is their bonuses as you guys already caught up on. Even with changed bonuses, suited more towards Command or whatever, their price wouldn't drop. They'd be useful, you'd see some, but their price would stay the same, because SoE LP is worth that much. You will start seeing them a lot when the first well known Corporation or Alliance starts using them in battles to huge effect. That means, eft warriors have to find a role for them where they allow you to fight battles you couldn't fight before. And to be honest, with the ability to field 5 Heavies / Sentries, allow refit and provide reps, it can't take too long until this happens.
Perhaps the drop rate for the nexus chips that give the nestor should be tweaked a little then to dop the price gradually(without impacting SoE LP value) along with changes that make them more appealing in doctrine terms. I think the fitting service change will help but also think the ability to fit warfare links (and a pair of nestors to refit from each other in a WH specific to the hole bu=onuses for instance) would increase the appeal of these ships greatly. |
viverxia
Serenity Prime The Volition Cult
3
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Posted - 2014.11.05 12:37:25 -
[10] - Quote
I love the idea of a Command and control battleship :)
+1 |
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
736
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Posted - 2014.11.05 12:39:21 -
[11] - Quote
The Nestor would take over the Orca's role though eventually.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
742
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Posted - 2014.11.05 12:43:05 -
[12] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:The Nestor would take over the Orca's role though eventually.
I would have thought it would be extremely sub-standard compared to an orca for industrial support. It would have no indy bonuses and an appaling cargo capacity for any mining op.
This was the reasoning with giving it the CBC level of warfare link use. It would never compete with a dedicated CS but could be very useful in more mobile fleet ops. |
Rammel Kas
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.11.05 14:21:33 -
[13] - Quote
When this topic came up before I mentioned it would be nice to have a sub-cap option for a ship which could operate like the fleet carriers did then. To allow alliances to deploy with refits and reps in a logistics group when they are going to operate away from home for more than one session.
In part this seems to have been the result of the rework. But only in part. The Nestors still have to remain within the raw module range of each other and their fleet mates to work. NC. did try a fleet like this within the last month, roaming through Catch. As the reddit post reported the combination was tough to crack. But failed because ::Bombers::. The need to stay inside the module activation range for armor repair (large) placed their entire fleet in one conveniently concentrated ball. Rendering them defenseless against the bomber meta. They did seem to like and get to use the options of the refit bay just before that though.
Bit of a disappointment. I think the Nestor is relegated to a bait ship. It does have some uses for WH day tripping but you could use T3's and depots there just as well if not better. And herein lies the bigger problem. Nestor bonusses seem to be balanced against other T1 uses relative. But it's price tag and everything else would place it in a race against T2-3 hulls which are all significantly better in their roles.
I do still think there's the option for a niche role or two for this hull. But to get there CCP needs to move towards a different set of hull bonus features. Keep or lose the hacking modifiers. But do something to make the thing a viable option for other roles and encourage pilots and FC's to bring it onto the grid instead of just being some trophy ship. Give it something else to make the fitting, interactions and options available to the pilots in and around the ship less predictable to anyone they come across in space. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1333
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:16:42 -
[14] - Quote
Rammel Kas wrote: Bit of a disappointment. I think the Nestor is relegated to a bait ship. It does have some uses for WH day tripping but you could use T3's and depots there just as well if not better. And herein lies the bigger problem. Nestor bonusses seem to be balanced against other T1 uses relative. But it's price tag and everything else would place it in a race against T2-3 hulls which are all significantly better in their roles.
Forget wormholes, day tripping or otherwise, as CCP Have clearly decided that it will not get a covert ops cloak, and without, no sane wormholer will use it outside the home hole.
Command links are an interesting idea, particularly if the train is shorter than a command ship, but is that enough to make it worthwhile?
It is possible with the changes to null, some role could be found for it, with some changes? maybe it would be best to call it a battlecruiser and reduce the price
Then could it have a covert ops cloak then please Fozzie?
seriously though can any of the Null guys think of anything that could be added, to make it useable and valuable in the Post phoebe universe? it is just such a shame to waste.
maybe give it a small force field and use it as a mobile small pos? It looks a bit like one?
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:28:08 -
[15] - Quote
so with this idea we have drone remote repping boosting laser battleship ... what is next? are we gona cry for subcap doomsday? and neut bonus after that? nestor is fine as it is ... just because u dont have use for it in 0.0 doesnt mean it is useless ... it is actually very usefull in w-space which it was designed for in first place ...so get over fact that not every single aspect of this game is about 0.0 players ... you are not alone in this game ...
btw ... you should rename this topic as "Nestor devolution (another)" |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
3904
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Posted - 2014.11.06 01:49:21 -
[16] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Give the nestor the CBC ability to fit warfare links in exchange for the hacking bonuses (lorewise the computer systems are retested)/ Sure, why not. 5th time's the charm, right?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
743
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Posted - 2014.11.06 09:58:33 -
[17] - Quote
Zmikund wrote:so with this idea we have drone remote repping boosting laser battleship ... what is next? are we gona cry for subcap doomsday? and neut bonus after that? nestor is fine as it is ... just because u dont have use for it in 0.0 doesnt mean it is useless ... it is actually very usefull in w-space which it was designed for in first place ...so get over fact that not every single aspect of this game is about 0.0 players ... you are not alone in this game ...
btw ... you should rename this topic as "Nestor devolution (another)"
Nope no need to rename, the title says exactly what this would be (and has been for 4 iterations). As for the 0.0 comment I actually operate primarily in hisec and losec. I was thinking of a unique way to give the Nestor greater utility that actually makes the price worth it rather than a (very) niche ship. I would never want a sub-cap DD as that would be ridiculous and neut bonus already exists on other hulls to take in the fleet. My idea was to make the Nestor's usefulness as a fleet support ship something distinct and unique and feel that the ability for a BS to fit links (to a limited level) would provide this. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1657
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Posted - 2014.11.06 10:33:24 -
[18] - Quote
Want cheaper Nestors, run SOE missions with a whole corp, and manipulate the market downwards. SOE LP has been so high because the demand for SOE items traditionally outstripped the supply of SOE LP. So SOE LP capped at the 0.4 conversion rate for Concord LP to SOE LP. (which assuming a 1k value for concord, gives us our tradition 2-2.2k SOE LP). We are now seeing a significantly higher volume of SOE runners now there is more than one agent, but demand has also increased with both Astero & Stratios being valuable. So..... more SOE runners = price will drop at some point. There will be a tipping point where the income of SOE LP gets to the point it is no longer governed by Concord LP conversions but by normal supply & demand, and then price will drop under 2k per LP. And as it gets close to 1k will stabilise somewhere as runners will change away from SOE when it's not as profitable. |
Rammel Kas
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.11.06 12:30:30 -
[19] - Quote
Cheapest way to do it is with the null agents or the chips. Guess where you would find those. I'm sure them being in the Goon area of influence will have nothing to do with the kill mails.
Not saying not to try it. It would be interesting to see what kind of interactions come out of this after all. Just you need to be aware what you're letting yourself in for. Ask yourself who the likely rival interests are going to be. How you would approach such a problem if you can assume their alliance wide assets are heavily stacked against any kind of military solution by itself. |
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2014.11.06 16:19:53 -
[20] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zmikund wrote:so with this idea we have drone remote repping boosting laser battleship ... what is next? are we gona cry for subcap doomsday? and neut bonus after that? nestor is fine as it is ... just because u dont have use for it in 0.0 doesnt mean it is useless ... it is actually very usefull in w-space which it was designed for in first place ...so get over fact that not every single aspect of this game is about 0.0 players ... you are not alone in this game ...
btw ... you should rename this topic as "Nestor devolution (another)" Nope no need to rename, the title says exactly what this would be (and has been for 4 iterations). As for the 0.0 comment I actually operate primarily in hisec and losec. I was thinking of a unique way to give the Nestor greater utility that actually makes the price worth it rather than a (very) niche ship. I would never want a sub-cap DD as that would be ridiculous and neut bonus already exists on other hulls to take in the fleet. My idea was to make the Nestor's usefulness as a fleet support ship something distinct and unique and feel that the ability for a BS to fit links (to a limited level) would provide this.
nestor is alredy unique fleet support ship because its only subcap ship that can give you refiting ability on grid ... |
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Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
10
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Posted - 2014.11.07 23:04:45 -
[21] - Quote
The SOE ships would ostensibly seem to form a beautiful triad - but fail with the Nestor...
- the Astero is the perfect scout, with an emphasis on exploration and is Cov Ops
- the Stratios is an enhanced T1 cruiser with combat ability and is Cov Ops
- the Nestor is a great support battleship and is ************
Well, we don't have Cop Ops BS - but the Nestor cannot accompany the rest of the SOE ships.
What it should simply add is to be a Black Ops. It just makes sense. |
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2014.11.08 01:13:35 -
[22] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote: - the Nestor is a great support battleship and is ************ .
Nestor is support battleship and it fills this role perfectly ... why do you cry sou much about nestor? its pretty much fist ship dedicated for wormholes so get over fact its not for you |
Marcus Tedric
Tedric Enterprises The Star League
10
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Posted - 2014.11.08 12:05:33 -
[23] - Quote
Zmikund wrote:Marcus Tedric wrote: - the Nestor is a great support battleship and is ************ . Nestor is support battleship and it fills this role perfectly ... why do you cry sou much about nestor? its pretty much fist ship dedicated for wormholes so get over fact its not for you
I'm sorry, you've missed my point.
The Nestor is great, it has much potential - but it does not follow the SOE-line - it needs to have Black Ops capability; then it would be truly Great. Then all 3 ships would be a coherent set.
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
255
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Posted - 2014.11.08 12:53:54 -
[24] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote:I'm sorry, you've missed my point. The Nestor is great, it has much potential - but it does not follow the SOE-line - it needs to have Black Ops capability; then it would be truly Great. Then all 3 ships would be a coherent set. Or maybe it does. You can't really make it solid for Nullsec combat sites without giving it T2 resists so it takes the next logical step.
Did I dream something being mentioned about Marauder Escalations at Fanfest? Let the Nestor trigger them too.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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