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Ghelisis Achasse
Scope Works
19
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:40:25 -
[1] - Quote
Hello capsuleers!
As you know, aside from working for my corporation, I also work for the Federation (to fund said work for my corporation), and I have noticed something rather...interesting concerning rogue drones. The person who I work for calls them mindless, but I'm not too sure about that, and here are some reasonings:
I have noticed when I get sent out on a rogue drone mission, they always seem to have some sort of agenda. I know some rogue swarms will attack and destroy entire convoys, not unlike some of us capsuleers. I keep radio communications up during a mission, and sometimes I can hear distinct words coming from them. Most of the time it's static, but I could have sworn on my last drone mission that I heard "kill you" on comms coming from one of their assimilated Dominixes.
Also, there seems to be no short supply of drone-assimilated Dominix battleships. The other drone craft are unique, but...it's like they specifically chose a Dominix, and that is all they use. I am extremely puzzled over this, because that would mean that they CAN think, and whatever works best for them is what they stick with. Where do they get them to begin with, and how do they assimilate those ships?
This also opens up another can of long-limbs, in that if they ARE sentient enough, and they have their own region of space already. But can the Four Empires actually...deal with them like they deal with us capsuleers? Can we actually for instance hold a conversation with one if we work at it? I will attempt to do so on my next rogue drone mission, and I will let you know what I discover. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
803
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:45:11 -
[2] - Quote
They are machines. They don't think, they just follow heuristic algorithms in their programming. |
iyammarrok
Disconnected.
194
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:52:26 -
[3] - Quote
While i would love to weigh in on this fully, i'm a little distracted at the moment. I would personally lean towards the answer 'yes.' Though perhaps not in the way humans or capsuleers do.
There are a few, likely aberrant, examples of drones communicating with capsuleers in the past. Then of course there are the models named in the leaked Code Aria report.
Personally, I think that any sufficiently advanced programming could be considered 'thought' ... it's all a matter of extent.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
6613
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Posted - 2014.11.04 21:56:57 -
[4] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:They are machines. They don't think, they just follow heuristic algorithms in their programming.
Just machines? That would be like saying, that you are just an ape.
Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
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Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
172
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:02:20 -
[5] - Quote
I access stored and current data, then form hypotheses and conclusions utilising internal processing capability. Therefore I am?
Unit XS365BT.
Designated Communications Officer.
Unit Commune.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
645
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:02:45 -
[6] - Quote
Some rogue drones can think.
However, the number that can think, is very, very, very small.
Well, if you can even call them rogue drones, that is. Because they're not drones, that is to say, they're not machines controlled by another entity. The ones that do the thinking, those are what they call "hive minds", which control the other rogue drones. Not sure that you can call a Hive Mind a drone, as such.
But that's not important right now.
What is important, is that the vast, vast majority of the Rogue Drone machines that you might encounter as a capsuleer, simply will not have the ability to interact philosophically with you, as they are simple machines following routines given to them by their controlling machine, and debating philosophy with humans simply does not fit into anything that that particular machine can handle.
It'd most likely just wait for you to move out of the way, before continuing on the task that you interrupted.
Or shoot at you. |
Cuci Cairi
673
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:07:56 -
[7] - Quote
No, they cannot. They do not have sentience. They have programming, not consciousness. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
6613
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:09:17 -
[8] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Some rogue drones can think.
However, the number that can think, is very, very, very small.
Well, if you can even call them rogue drones, that is. Because they're not drones, that is to say, they're not machines controlled by another entity. The ones that do the thinking, those are what they call "hive minds", which control the other rogue drones. Not sure that you can call a Hive Mind a drone, as such.
But that's not important right now.
What is important, is that the vast, vast majority of the Rogue Drone machines that you might encounter as a capsuleer, simply will not have the ability to interact philosophically with you, as they are simple machines following routines given to them by their controlling machine, and debating philosophy with humans simply does not fit into anything that that particular machine can handle.
It'd most likely just wait for you to move out of the way, before continuing on the task that you interrupted.
Or shoot at you.
Very well put actually.
Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1397
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:38:48 -
[9] - Quote
First you ask, if rogue drones can think... then what? Can Sansha think? Can gallenteans think? Can your hornets think? Can you microwarpdrive think?...
Don't look for sentience when there is none. |
Da Dom
Wii R
134
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Posted - 2014.11.05 03:37:32 -
[10] - Quote
Ghelisis Achasse wrote:This also opens up another can of long-limbs, in that if they ARE sentient enough, and they have their own region of space already. But can the Four Empires actually...deal with them like they deal with us capsuleers? Can we actually for instance hold a conversation with one if we work at it? The Drones are collective consciousness and communicate on a different level than what we are used to. They don't deal with us "Humans" as individuals, but as a collective.
What we see as a war between humans and drones from our perspective, is merely a passionate argument between two individuals when viewed from a collective standpoint.
:)(:
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Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
171
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Posted - 2014.11.05 03:47:36 -
[11] - Quote
Far as I know, an individual drone can't think. The thinking is done by the hive as a whole. I understand that social insects use pheromones and other chemical signals to do the critical thinking. The drones probably have something analogous to that. |
Siddhar Gangari
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.11.05 19:18:33 -
[12] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:They are machines. They don't think, they just follow heuristic algorithms in their programming.
That may not be entirely true. There outward shells are mechanical, but we still have no idea if the function according to written programming or by an organic or synthetic consciousness. Of course, one could argue that both theories are identical and their distinction is merely semantics. However, no one can argue that the Sleepers are simple machines. Years after their discovery they have continually proved themselves beyond the limits of simple drone computers. |
Ria Nieyli
22083
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Posted - 2014.11.05 19:32:50 -
[13] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:First you ask, if rogue drones can think... then what? Can Sansha think? Can gallenteans think? Can your hornets think? Can you microwarpdrive think?...
Don't look for sentience when there is none.
Can YOU think?
Mirrored eyes
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2014.11.05 19:37:21 -
[14] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Diana Kim wrote:First you ask, if rogue drones can think... then what? Can Sansha think? Can gallenteans think? Can your hornets think? Can you microwarpdrive think?...
Don't look for sentience when there is none. Can YOU think? please, don't feed the monkey. It gets aggressive. |
Ria Nieyli
22084
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Posted - 2014.11.05 19:52:44 -
[15] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:They are machines. They don't think, they just follow heuristic algorithms in their programming. Just machines? That would be like saying, that you are just an ape.
In many ways, that is truer than you think it is.
Mirrored eyes
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
4810
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Posted - 2014.11.05 22:55:20 -
[16] - Quote
Short answer: yes, but possibly not as we would understand it.
Mane 614
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Wendrika Hydreiga
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:05:04 -
[17] - Quote
A better question would be: can they feel?
I accidently set on of my lab aid drones on fire and he did complain a lot because of it, so I wouldn't rule that one out just yet. How was suposed to know it was still testing the engine nuzzles? |
Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:49:35 -
[18] - Quote
I wonder how long it will be before the AI we created is wondering if the AI it created can think.... Are we just some form of AI created by a long extenct race of beings? If so, what was our original pourpose? How deep can I sound asking these questions? Will the IGS ever have a pie buffet? Can I have all your ISK? How many questions can I string together? What does purple tast like? will there ever be a word that rhymes with orange? |
Dradis Aulmais
Ignite Llc. V.L.A.S.T
11
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Posted - 2014.11.06 03:50:23 -
[19] - Quote
We don't like to believe there are things that can be sentient. It destroys our uniqueness. "Rogue Drones" is a misdemeanor for drones are controlled by an entity. Well if there is no longer a human controlling them then what is? God? Bill? I believe drones can think. They show preferences. They reproduce in a way. They set goals and seek to achieve them. Can they create art? What is art for a drone? Harmonics of a warp drive? In the end only a drone can tell you if he thinks, find one that will talk and you will look upon the faces of gods.
The rumor that "orange" rhymes with no other word is incorrect. Orange rhymes with sporange (a sac where spores are made). "Silver" has the same rumor going for it, but it actually rhymes with Wilver (a nickname) and chilver (a ewe lamb). |
Kohiko Sun
Stormcrows
75
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Posted - 2014.11.06 06:49:05 -
[20] - Quote
Sentience is the ability to perceive the world and yourself. Ants can do that.
It is not sapience, the ability to reason.
Sapience has connections to intelligence, but it is not the same.
Sentience lets you see the world around you and know your head is cold. Sapience lets you decide if you would like to wear the warm thing you have found as a hat. Intelligence lets you know that you should take the chicken off of your head. |
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
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Posted - 2014.11.06 14:23:43 -
[21] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote: Can YOU think?
Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
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Posted - 2014.11.06 14:25:07 -
[22] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:A better question would be: can they feel?
I accidently set one of my lab aid drones on fire and he did complain a lot because of it, so I wouldn't rule that one out just yet. How was suposed to know it was still testing the engine nuzzles? I can still her it screaming "ERROR!"... I believe they might have sensors on their tentacles, so they can feel presence of the object to correct grabbing strength |
Ria Nieyli
22155
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Posted - 2014.11.06 14:27:20 -
[23] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote: Can YOU think?
Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you.
That's not an answer. The question is simple enough.
Mirrored eyes
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
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Posted - 2014.11.06 16:25:08 -
[24] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote: Can YOU think?
Based on amount of content of your message and expression of the reply, I can definitely redirect this question to you. That's not an answer. The question is simple enough. The answer is obvious: yes, I can. Pity, you couldn't think about it yourself. |
Ria Nieyli
22188
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Posted - 2014.11.06 18:52:06 -
[25] - Quote
You have failed.
Mirrored eyes
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Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
386
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:33:34 -
[26] - Quote
What does it Mean, to Think ?
Philosophically Speaking, that Is.
Human Brains operate through the reactions of Numerous Chemical Compounds with the Cells in the Brain. It is Possible to Modify the action of the Brain, through Applying Substances to alter these Reactions.
Does that Mean that Humans are Capable of Thinking ? Or only that their apparent Thoughts are the Result of Known Chemical Reactions ?
What Is Thought ? |
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
175
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:48:40 -
[27] - Quote
Pilot Kim, We request that you refrain from continued attempts at thread derailment.
We Return
Unit XS365BT.
Designated Communications Officer.
Unit Commune.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:58:21 -
[28] - Quote
Unit XS365BT wrote:Pilot Kim, We request that you refrain from continued attempts at thread derailment.
We Return Pilot Unit, I have asked a valid question, yet got invalid reply from a person Ria Nieyli, I would like you to read it from here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=383546 if you couldn't achieve it earlier.
With thus, I would either ask you to retract your statement, or to stop the derailing yourself, and not asking other to stop derailing while doing the same. Simply because both your comment and my reply to it are derailing.
I hope your next comment will be more meaningful. |
Aurora Morgan
Perkone Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.11.06 20:26:51 -
[29] - Quote
I'm not an expert on drones in any way, but I have some theories, please correct me if anything is wrong.
Let us make some assumptions first,
- A digital computer can easily simulate a brain.
- A copy of such a brain can be transferred over a communications link.
Both postulates we must accept as truth, the first has been done in labs, and the second is a capability we capsuleers utilize on a regular basis. From this deriving that a rogue drone could have intelligence, and can reproduce should be easy. And if someone could have given a rogue drone a working nervous system, isn't it likely that someone has?
Even a regular drone has enough computational capability to simulate a very complex neural network (and this is how at least a few models are actually programmed) so it just seems plain likely that at least some parts of a rogue drone hive are intelligent and conscious. Maybe not at the level of a human, but I would be surprised if they are not at least as smart as a dog.
My first idea on why they prefer the Dominix would be that they have an exploit that reliably works against the software that are running in those ships, and can spread themselves that way?
In the end, I don't think the interesting question is "can computers think?", but "can humans think?". |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
386
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Posted - 2014.11.06 21:29:40 -
[30] - Quote
Aurora Morgan wrote: My first idea on why they prefer the Dominix would be that they have an exploit that reliably works against the software that are running in those ships, and can spread themselves that way?
The Dominix devotes a Substantial Proportion of its internal Volume to Drone Control systems and Drone storage Bays. It is Possible that those Characteristics make the Dominix highly Useful to Rogues, as it would allow a subverted Dominix to control Smaller Rogues and Transport them.
Quote:On the more philosophical plane, I think Synthetic Cultist is on to something. We are also just machines that operate according to some rules, and chemicals in ourselves and in our environment can have profound influence on us and those rules. What really is the difference between our human brains, and a digital computer?
A human Brain is Constructed by Itself over time. A Digital computer is usually Constructed All at Once by outside Agencies. This may be Important.
Quote:In the end, I don't think the interesting question is "can computers think?", but "can humans think?".
I Think that Humans can Think, but am Unable to determine How such a Hypothesis could be Tested. |
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