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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 08:43:29 -
[421] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:James Baboli wrote:
For the tempest:
How do similar fitting and other hard stats as are currently in the spreadsheet with a switch to a 7.5% ROF bonus and a 5%/lvl shield boost amount and a 7/6/6 layout sound?
The two utility highs are what sells the ship. Problem is typhoon can use 2 utility highs and do MORE dps and have about same buffer and smaller (less vulnerable to bombers). Armageddon and dominix can use 6 Neuts and do only a bit less dps. If you really need neut powert you want drone battleships. The tempest is an innefective choice. You guys still use them sometimes in 0.0 because its a doctrine that you guys already have trained, and the cost of changing surpasses the gains. The tempest dual neuts is relevant on a 1v1.. but that is a semi mythological combat condition. Pest is not in our doctrines and it is not a mythical ship. It is effectively a bigger brother to the old cane (now the navy cane) that everyone flew before CCP stopped the cane from using two med neuts and perfectly suited to smaller gang work.
When I say you I mean large 0.0 groups, sorry if i was not precise enough, although you guys had not long ago the fleet tempest dotrine (so tempest is automatiacally trained). The mythical I spoke about was the 1v1 scenario.. not the tempest. 1v1 fights are mythical and should not be main balance factor of any ship.
On the hurricane case things were a bit easier for it. The hurricane had same or more low slots than its counterparts, exact opposite to tempest.
The tempest simply does not have a logical reason to be flown except trying to lure solo cruiser sized ships to engage you, by pretending you are doing some PVE or something stupid.
We just want to push tempest into a role that is not already outdone by mealstrom, typhoon, megathron , geddon..
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 08:50:12 -
[422] - Quote
Other option for the tempest. Since in theory the sell point of the tempest are the neuts... you coudl captalize on that. Armageddon is the long range neut boat..
but you could make the tempest have a 7.5% ROF bonus (a bit less than now) and a 20% neutralizer AMMOUNT per level. The 2 neuts would become 4. The ship would have less dps but a specific role.
And before anyone complain that this is amarr bonus.
TP bonus on golem, ROF bonus on mega (rof bonus was supposed to be minmatar only when the racial identities were creaed), falloff bonus on several gallente ships, navy zealot faster than fleet sttaber. Gallente ships effectively more mobile than minmatar ones. The racial identities of minmatar were already stolen EONS ago... its is nothign more than fair.. that minmatar would have a ship that EXCELLED TO FIGHT against ammar ships!
It makes sense on a lore development scenario... it makes huge sense on the balance of ships, since the bad slot layout of the tempest balances well with a bonus that makes it a great ATTACK BATTLESHIP!! And makes a lot of sense on the ROLE scenario, because it is a role not covered yet, it makes it completely orthogonal to the typhoon and maelstrom and not a shadow of them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
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Posted - 2014.12.18 08:56:55 -
[423] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
We just want to push tempest into a role that is not already outdone by mealstrom, typhoon, megathron , geddon..
None of those ships can pull the cane only bigger trick. Geddon lacks the speed, Mega lacks the neuts, phoon is a nimble raven, mael is an arty platform and also too slow.
Pest is its own animal and can run either armour or shield tanked which gives it more adaptability then most ships. It is also one of the few battleships that can go solo including into wormholes and still sport a neut.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 09:32:14 -
[424] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
We just want to push tempest into a role that is not already outdone by mealstrom, typhoon, megathron , geddon..
None of those ships can pull the cane only bigger trick. Geddon lacks the speed, Mega lacks the neuts, phoon is a nimble raven, mael is an arty platform and also too slow. Pest is its own animal and can run either armour or shield tanked which gives it more adaptability then most ships. It is also one of the few battleships that can go solo including into wormholes and still sport a neut.
Being adaptable.. at DOCKED time is just an excuse to being FAIL whenever you are undocked.
What trick you talk about? I suppose you are talkign about shield tempest with neuts to kill capitals as a cannon fooder thing to throw and collect insurance later...
The typhoon can drop 1 launcher to fit 2 neuts and do same DPS (in fact a tiny bit more) as a tempest but with PURE damage type (advantage) but smaller and more nimble . You can do the same with the raven!!! In fact if you drop 2 turrets fromt he mega to field Neuts, it does only 90 dps less than the tempest!!!!
Even if the tempest was slightly superior on this VERY Limited trick scenario (that it is not) it would still not be enough to justify its existance.
I must laugh at anyone that thinks that a ship is balanced because at a single NICHE and rare usage.. it can do 90 dps more than a mega that has dropped 2 of its turrets to fit the same neuting capability. All whiel the mega can be easily used as a INFITENLY superior ship in the other 99.5% of eve situations.
And what is the speed that you speak that it has and the geddon do not? is not as you need an extra 150m/s to bump a capital ship, and ALL battleships are too slow to have their mobility matter against smaller ships. It is a VERY minor advantage that does not compensate the MASSIVE disadvantage everywhere else.
The geddon is still far superior on that role, by sheer capability of bringing MORE neuts with same DPS or WAY more neuts with a bit less dps and fielding much more EHP at same time.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
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Posted - 2014.12.18 09:49:24 -
[425] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
What trick you talk about? Where is it usable nowadays ? I suppose you are talking about shield tempest with neuts to kill capitals as a cannon fooder thing to throw and collect insurance later...
The typhoon can drop 1 launcher to fit 2 neuts and do same DPS (in fact a tiny bit more) as a tempest but with PURE damage type (advantage) but smaller and more nimble . You can do the same with the raven!!! In fact if you drop 2 turrets fromt he mega to field Neuts, it does only 90 dps less than the tempest!!!!
Even if the tempest was slightly superior on this VERY Limited trick scenario (that it is not) it would still not be enough to justify its existance.
I must laugh at anyone that thinks that a ship is balanced because at a single NICHE and rare usage.. it can do 90 dps more than a mega that has dropped 2 of its turrets to fit the same neuting capability. All whiel the mega can be easily used as a INFITENLY superior ship in the other 99.5% of eve situations.
And what is the speed that you speak that it has and the geddon do not? is not as you need an extra 150m/s to bump a capital ship, and ALL battleships are too slow to have their mobility matter against smaller ships. It is a VERY minor advantage that does not compensate the MASSIVE disadvantage everywhere else.
The geddon and domi are still far superior on that role, by sheer capability of bringing MORE neuts with same DPS or WAY more neuts with a bit less dps and fielding much more EHP at same time.
The tempest only trick is to resemble superficially a ship that was in a completely different size class of a completely different metagame? wow amazing role.. almost as relevant as having a bonus to festival launchers
In the last 1 year, I have seen only 1 tempest .. only one!! The only battleships more rare nowadays is the scorpion.
This just comes over as a rant from a pilot with near zero battleship experience.
In the last year I have seen not a single rook and just one falcon. I guess these ships are also useless? Hell how many times have you seen a solo phoenix? Not once I bet. Or how about a marauder actively hunting for targets? Sentinels, where for art thou?
Just because you personally don't see them and can't figure out how to use them does not mean they are underpowered. The very fact that you have no idea what I am talking about in terms of the pest shows that you are not in a position to be talking about changing it.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 10:01:35 -
[426] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
What trick you talk about? Where is it usable nowadays ? I suppose you are talking about shield tempest with neuts to kill capitals as a cannon fooder thing to throw and collect insurance later...
The typhoon can drop 1 launcher to fit 2 neuts and do same DPS (in fact a tiny bit more) as a tempest but with PURE damage type (advantage) but smaller and more nimble . You can do the same with the raven!!! In fact if you drop 2 turrets fromt he mega to field Neuts, it does only 90 dps less than the tempest!!!!
Even if the tempest was slightly superior on this VERY Limited trick scenario (that it is not) it would still not be enough to justify its existance.
I must laugh at anyone that thinks that a ship is balanced because at a single NICHE and rare usage.. it can do 90 dps more than a mega that has dropped 2 of its turrets to fit the same neuting capability. All whiel the mega can be easily used as a INFITENLY superior ship in the other 99.5% of eve situations.
And what is the speed that you speak that it has and the geddon do not? is not as you need an extra 150m/s to bump a capital ship, and ALL battleships are too slow to have their mobility matter against smaller ships. It is a VERY minor advantage that does not compensate the MASSIVE disadvantage everywhere else.
The geddon and domi are still far superior on that role, by sheer capability of bringing MORE neuts with same DPS or WAY more neuts with a bit less dps and fielding much more EHP at same time.
The tempest only trick is to resemble superficially a ship that was in a completely different size class of a completely different metagame? wow amazing role.. almost as relevant as having a bonus to festival launchers
In the last 1 year, I have seen only 1 tempest .. only one!! The only battleships more rare nowadays is the scorpion.
This just comes over as a rant from a pilot with near zero battleship experience. In the last year I have seen not a single rook and just one falcon. I guess these ships are also useless? Hell how many times have you seen a solo phoenix? Not once I bet. Or how about a marauder actively hunting for targets? Sentinels, where for art thou? Just because you personally don't see them and can't figure out how to use them does not mean they are underpowered. The very fact that you have no idea what I am talking about in terms of the pest shows that you are not in a position to be talking about changing it.
A aaa sure near zero battleship experience based on my HIGH SEC MERC character? You know an environemnt where using a battleship mens you are an idiot.
Baltec.. you might think you are all wise and experienced, but you have never shown any capability of providing a founded opinion based on an empirical analysis. You always throw your mythical so called experience, that everybody knwos is irrelevant, because the number of kills you get is more a factor of the environment you operate, the amount of time you have to play and many other factors and None of them is understanding balance of ships.
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
573
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Posted - 2014.12.18 10:19:24 -
[427] - Quote
I can see the argument from all sides here and I do see flaws in Battleships.
The Typhoon: Other than torps (and in general the missile system requiring a large redesign) I can't really see anything wrong with this ship. It works.
The Tempest: Is it okay to accept that this ship is a Battlecruiser dressed in Battleship clothing? Is it okay that this ship has a double damage bonus and still lacks punch?
The Maelstrom: Is it okay to accept that the Minmatar Battleship designed for solo/small gang stuff is used primarily as a fleet alpha platform?
For me, the roles should be far more clearly defined. Minmatar favour the "Attack" style of ships which is why they have two "Attack Battleships" (ABS's) and one "Combat Battleship" (CBS).
I think the Maelstrom should be addressed first. This ship should be the shield equivalent of the Hyperion. The Hyperion is a CBS they got almost exactly right (if you ignore the common issues with all BS's relative to other ship classes). It's only flaw being a little tight on CPU. So if we "Hyperionize" the Maelstrom we would: Remove 2 turret hardpoints and increase the RoF bonus to 10% / level to compensate for the loss of two turrets (7% less turret dps than 8 guns with 5% RoF bonus). Adding enough bandwidth for an extra heavy drone removes the loss in DPS if this is required but I don't think it is. Remove a high slot and push it to a mid slot as this ship is supposed to be the king of active shield tanking it allows it to be able to fit a web without sacrificing it's shield tank. A small CPU buff The Maelstrom then gains a Utility High. A better slot layout and the ability to use all of it's low slots instead of welding a Co-Pro in one of them.
Now the Tempest: If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout. What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.
What do you think? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 10:36:44 -
[428] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
A aaa sure near zero battleship experience based on my HIGH SEC MERC character? You know an environment where using a battleship ( excluding pirate ones, geddon and domi) means you are an idiot? You realize almost all our characters are alts of one of the major 0.0 alliances? Even with this char I have plenty of experience exploding battleships.. and the clear factual experience that they are nothing but PREY! You think bringing a fictional argument without even presenting it is a good way to defend a case? You know.. there is a reason why goons got the fame they have ... you are just helping ... Being a bigger cane is irrelevant! If that was good, the fleet cane would still be used.. but it is NOT!
it sis not ME that does not see a GOOD way to use them. It is basically all PVP community that does not see worth to use battleships as a good solution , bar a few exceptions. You are not wiser than the majority of eve, much on the contrary based on how you expose your ideas supported by fallacies and personal perception. Anedoctal evidence of 1 or 2 players that use them does not make the ship really effective. I know a few players that hunt exclusively with ventures.. and that does not make it a good pvp ship (just a good bait)
Just to give you examples as YOU know much less about the reality of the game than you think. I see marauders hunting for targets at least once every 3-4 days. They are very common on low sec zones where no huge group lives, and very common on high sec wars (that are still WAY more high skill pvp than pressign F1 at fleet comanders orders) I see sentinels more commonly than any other non interceptor frigate! They are quite popular in small scale pvp (small scale is not 50 people), the fact hat they are not used in 0.0 does not mean they are not used at all.
Rooks I agree are nearly useless, because falcons are plain superior for 99% of the realistic combat scenarios. The rook is in the very same position of the tempest. It is cast in shadows by a ship that is better in the majority of the scenarios, adn the scenarios where it is better, it is so rare that is not worth to buy one just for that chance. That doe snot make the tempest less in need of a new role just because other ships are in even worse position. Your other example the phoenix.. yes the dread the 99% of eve regarded as uselles of years.. maybe that matches with the fact that is the least use one?
When a ship is almost not used it may means that 1) its horrible 2) its is more expensive than it should be 3) other ship(s) cover its usage envelope better 4)a very particular characteristic of the metagame make them not desired.
On the tempest case, clearly it is not 2 (because its price is roughly same as others) and it is not 4 (because this has been kept as a constant since Incursion age If my memory serves me right).
So either the ship is horrible.. or its roles are covered by others in a better way. That is the case for both the tempest, rook and a few other ships. All ships that should get attention.
When the majority of the people that can think in eve have an opinion..a nd basically only you have a different opinion.. something is wrong.. biased.. or plainly trolling
Its not the entire PvP community its just a handful of you on a forum debating with one guy with vastly more experience.
Again you show in your reply that you have very little experience in the ships. I'm not basing my thoughts on your killboard record for this character but upon your responses to me. Again, you say the rook is a poor ship, yet I know for a fact that it is the best ECM boat for solo work. You say the phoenix is useless yet I know its downright deadly to subcaps due to its ability to alpha cruisers and BC which is why I am currently training for one for roaming.
See the difference between you and me that I have flown these ships for years and in ways most have never dreamed of. You meanwhile have flown one or two and not often with bad results.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
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Posted - 2014.12.18 10:42:11 -
[429] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Now the Tempest: If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout. What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.
What do you think?
Going off memory, with a tracking bonus I would be able to get near med auto tracking on such a ship.
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
573
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Posted - 2014.12.18 12:27:22 -
[430] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Going off memory, with a tracking bonus I would be able to get near med auto tracking on such a ship. You have to remember these ships operate at longer ranges than blasters do which makes tracking of targets easier on their guns. When you load up sabot, tracking mod and pop a drug you will be getting some crazy numbers.
I think we would need to look at more aspects other than the tracking number but from my understanding of AC design is that they can: They outrange blasters to be able to kite blaster boats They out track pulse lasers to be able to get under the tracking of pulse laser boats
From what I can tell, if a 7.5% tracking bonus was applied, the tracking would be on par with Large Blasters but not as good as medium AC's. A shield fit using TE's would be able to achieve close to (but not superior at all) tracking to a tracking bonused Large Blaster boat (Megathron) that wasn't using tracking mods and was using equivalent tiered weaponry. An armour fit Tempest would struggle to get that kind of tracking without making serious sacrifices.
I don't believe the tracking bonus would break the ship. I think it would just improve it's role as an ABS with it being able to use it's mobility more.
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
I've left the Raven out of this comparison as it's a special snowflake in the ABS class sharing it's spot only with the Typhoon.
Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs). The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14256
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 12:50:49 -
[431] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship.
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs). The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.
Alpha platform is the Maels job.
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
573
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:44:36 -
[432] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship.
So you agree with me on the tracking bonus idea?
baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs). The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.
Alpha platform is the Maels job.
However like I said above, the Mael would become more like the Hyperion and use it's active tanking bonus. Right now the only thing people are taking advantage of with the Mael is the fact it has 8 guns. The Tornado can do the same Alpha with better projection and mobility but lacks the tank of the Mael. However in large scale fleet environments it's essentially trading ship for ship so I'm not sure how effective a larger buffer is. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14257
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 14:07:18 -
[433] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
So you agree with me on the tracking bonus idea?
No, for the reasons already stated.
Spugg Galdon wrote:
However like I said above, the Mael would become more like the Hyperion and use it's active tanking bonus. Right now the only thing people are taking advantage of with the Mael is the fact it has 8 guns. The Tornado can do the same Alpha with better projection and mobility but lacks the tank of the Mael. However in large scale fleet environments it's essentially trading ship for ship so I'm not sure how effective a larger buffer is.
There is a very good reason we used the Mael in Alpha fleet and it is very much because of its beefier tank and superior fitting room. Arty platform is the maels thing, the pest is the autocannon boat.
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Jacob Katruun
Varitec Security LLC
1
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Posted - 2014.12.18 19:15:12 -
[434] - Quote
Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...
In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4
A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.
-Jacob Katruun |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4435
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:29:39 -
[435] - Quote
Jacob Katruun wrote:Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...
In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4
A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.
-Jacob Katruun How would we balance this against existing logi?
Possibilities that occur to me include:
Limit it's targeting to a low number, like 2 maximum targets. (This assumes it can operate cap stable, and possibly offers greater repping than the logi cruisers) (No significant DPS potential, it is a repping boat only)
OR
Limit it to one or two reppers. (This assumes it will be less effective than a logi cruiser, but creates a spider tanking option possibly balanced by low buffer tank) (This assumes combat ability, and is using a spider tank instead of the expected previous one)
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14259
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Posted - 2014.12.18 19:35:52 -
[436] - Quote
If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
517
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Posted - 2014.12.18 21:23:38 -
[437] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.
If they made a battleship class logi boat the repping power should be what the current logi cruisers have with an emphesis on large reps and the logi cruisers toned down and all about medium reps like the tech one general logis.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4435
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Posted - 2014.12.18 21:42:38 -
[438] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:baltec1 wrote:If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations. If they made a battleship class logi boat the repping power should be what the current logi cruisers have with an emphesis on large reps and the logi cruisers toned down and all about medium reps like the tech one general logis. If we aren't going to define something new, and what we have is working, I do not see any particular value swapping hulls to do the same job.
Especially not in the opposite direction from more recent changes.
Now, if we want to define that T1 BS hulls are the ones doing this, and are operating on the same level as T2 logi cruisers, that may have some potential. I see that as adding a new method to solve an old problem, and exchanging the cruiser set for the BS set of pros & cons.
In any case, I see no reason to modify cruisers out of a role, just to make room for a larger hull instead.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1931
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 23:47:10 -
[439] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I can see the argument from all sides here and I do see flaws in Battleships.
The Typhoon: Other than torps (and in general the missile system requiring a large redesign) I can't really see anything wrong with this ship. It works.
The Tempest: Is it okay to accept that this ship is a Battlecruiser dressed in Battleship clothing? Is it okay that this ship has a double damage bonus and still lacks punch?
The Maelstrom: Is it okay to accept that the Minmatar Battleship designed for solo/small gang stuff is used primarily as a fleet alpha platform?
For me, the roles should be far more clearly defined. Minmatar favour the "Attack" style of ships which is why they have two "Attack Battleships" (ABS's) and one "Combat Battleship" (CBS).
I think the Maelstrom should be addressed first. This ship should be the shield equivalent of the Hyperion. The Hyperion is a CBS they got almost exactly right (if you ignore the common issues with all BS's relative to other ship classes). It's only flaw being a little tight on CPU. So if we "Hyperionize" the Maelstrom we would: Remove 2 turret hardpoints and increase the RoF bonus to 10% / level to compensate for the loss of two turrets (7% less turret dps than 8 guns with 5% RoF bonus). Adding enough bandwidth for an extra heavy drone removes the loss in DPS if this is required but I don't think it is. Remove a high slot and push it to a mid slot as this ship is supposed to be the king of active shield tanking it allows it to be able to fit a web without sacrificing it's shield tank. A small CPU buff The Maelstrom then gains a Utility High. A better slot layout and the ability to use all of it's low slots instead of welding a Co-Pro in one of them.
Now the Tempest: If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout. What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.
What do you think?
On one thing you are wrong. The maesltrom was MADE to be a fleet ship. I remember that CCP tuxford stated that CLEARLY when he presented the ship.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1931
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:48:09 -
[440] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.
That is one of the few thigns I agree with you.
LOGis are TOO POWEFUL.
They need to be droped to medium repairers /trasnferers, and they need to get a bit more cruiser normal signature radius.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1931
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:49:06 -
[441] - Quote
Jacob Katruun wrote:Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...
In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4
A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.
-Jacob Katruun
So appreciated that people ranted massively on the SOE battleship threading complainign how useless a Logi battleship was?
I don't think so... They had to super buff theship dozen times to peopel find it acceptable.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1931
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:50:44 -
[442] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship.
A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14259
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Posted - 2014.12.19 04:43:31 -
[443] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship. A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good.
EVE is not about min maxing, its about using the tools you have effectivly. When you take the pest package as a whole you find you have a very adaptable hull that will do well in more situations than some of the other ships quoted.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1932
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Posted - 2014.12.19 08:58:45 -
[444] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship. A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good. EVE is not about min maxing, its about using the tools you have effectivly. When you take the pest package as a whole you find you have a very adaptable hull that will do well in more situations than some of the other ships quoted.
IF that was true people would be using it a lot.. they are not.. because.. that statement is plain WRONG! Defeating someone in any combat in real life or eve is being far superior to the enemy at one scenario and forcing them into that scenario, that is warfare 101. Not worth discussing that. Its plain and unavoidable truth in eve , other games and real life combat. Just take as an example ww2 MC 202 family of italian fighters, they were good.. at everything, but were not excelent at anything. They were a COMPLETE DISASTER in field.
Not being too bad on some things is somewhat relevant and important so that enemies do not have an easy time cornering you into their advantage zone. But when you are not good at anything that does not help.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
583
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Posted - 2014.12.19 09:53:08 -
[445] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:I can see the argument from all sides here and I do see flaws in Battleships.
The Typhoon: Other than torps (and in general the missile system requiring a large redesign) I can't really see anything wrong with this ship. It works.
The Tempest: Is it okay to accept that this ship is a Battlecruiser dressed in Battleship clothing? Is it okay that this ship has a double damage bonus and still lacks punch?
The Maelstrom: Is it okay to accept that the Minmatar Battleship designed for solo/small gang stuff is used primarily as a fleet alpha platform?
For me, the roles should be far more clearly defined. Minmatar favour the "Attack" style of ships which is why they have two "Attack Battleships" (ABS's) and one "Combat Battleship" (CBS).
I think the Maelstrom should be addressed first. This ship should be the shield equivalent of the Hyperion. The Hyperion is a CBS they got almost exactly right (if you ignore the common issues with all BS's relative to other ship classes). It's only flaw being a little tight on CPU. So if we "Hyperionize" the Maelstrom we would: Remove 2 turret hardpoints and increase the RoF bonus to 10% / level to compensate for the loss of two turrets (7% less turret dps than 8 guns with 5% RoF bonus). Adding enough bandwidth for an extra heavy drone removes the loss in DPS if this is required but I don't think it is. Remove a high slot and push it to a mid slot as this ship is supposed to be the king of active shield tanking it allows it to be able to fit a web without sacrificing it's shield tank. A small CPU buff The Maelstrom then gains a Utility High. A better slot layout and the ability to use all of it's low slots instead of welding a Co-Pro in one of them.
Now the Tempest: If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout. What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.
What do you think? On one thing you are wrong. The maesltrom was MADE to be a fleet ship. I remember that CCP tuxford stated that CLEARLY when he presented the ship.
Then it has the wrong bonuses. It should have Optimal and RoF bonus to projectiles and drop the shield boost bonus. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14265
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Posted - 2014.12.19 10:14:15 -
[446] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship. A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good. EVE is not about min maxing, its about using the tools you have effectivly. When you take the pest package as a whole you find you have a very adaptable hull that will do well in more situations than some of the other ships quoted. IF that was true people would be using it a lot.. they are not.. because.. that statement is plain WRONG! Defeating someone in any combat in real life or eve is being far superior to the enemy at one scenario and forcing them into that scenario, that is warfare 101. Not worth discussing that. Its plain and unavoidable truth in eve , other games and real life combat. Just take as an example ww2 MC 202 family of italian fighters, they were good.. at everything, but were not excelent at anything. They were a COMPLETE DISASTER in field. Not being too bad on some things is somewhat relevant and important so that enemies do not have an easy time cornering you into their advantage zone. But when you are not good at anything that does not help.
Most people dont fly 90% of the ships out there, they only aim for whatever the fotm is. Also dont use real life examples to try and justify yourself in an internet spaceship game. Just because you have no idea how to use a ship does not mean it is underpowered in any way.
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
6
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Posted - 2014.12.19 11:46:26 -
[447] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:
In terms of damage projection: Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron
In terms of tracking: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe
In terms of raw damage potential: Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse
In terms of versatility: Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse
Which makes the pest a great all round ship. So you agree with me on the tracking bonus idea? baltec1 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs). The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.
Alpha platform is the Maels job. However like I said above, the Mael would become more like the Hyperion and use it's active tanking bonus. Right now the only thing people are taking advantage of with the Mael is the fact it has 8 guns. The Tornado can do the same Alpha with better projection and mobility but lacks the tank of the Mael. However in large scale fleet environments it's essentially trading ship for ship so I'm not sure how effective a larger buffer is.
honestly I really think the meal should lose it's tanking buff. more often that not it's not used. I think the meal should be more like the Apoc 7.5 tracking 10 falloff
what the pest really needs is some projection, I think it should be 10 damage and 10 falloff. less overall DPS, but better application in ranges where its rational to use a battleship. plus with 9 effective guns it would be a great arty boat to.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
849
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:15:15 -
[448] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:...blurb...
I'd have thought that ship power is all relative to the situation anyway. In the overwhelming force point above how do you define overwhelming force by ship class? It's irrelevant. Enough ventures will kill a BS, far fewer nerues would achieve the same even though neither is a combat ship. One on one is very very rare in Eve from what I've seen and as you say most train for FotM until it is nerfed or the current prevailing doctrine if they are fleet focussed. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
518
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Posted - 2014.12.20 06:07:35 -
[449] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Most people dont fly 90% of the ships out there, they only aim for whatever the fotm is. Also dont use real life examples to try and justify yourself in an internet spaceship game. Just because you have no idea how to use a ship does not mean it is underpowered in any way.
That is true.
Thing is that even before the warp speed changes battleships were put in that awkward position of being twice as expensive to build for the sole purpose of being more expensive to build.
What I can get behind is that frigates and cruiser got more expensive to build but they were given a ton of more performance so I think it is okay.
When battlecruisers and battleships were changed I could not get behind the reasoning for making them that much more expensive to build. The performance didn't change much and only a few slots were changed.
See the Brutix and the Ferox were exchanged so that the Brutix has 6 turret slots and the Ferox has 7 of them. Before the change they were reversed. The Prophecy got a nice change and the Drake and hurricane were overnerfed - twice.
Some of the battleships even got ehp reduced but got increased build cost which are not even a little warranted.
Can you see now that battlecruisers to some extend and battleships are in dire need of something worthwhile?
I think James has put this nice in the right direction in his sheet. Not too dramatic changes where approtiate and some ehp here and there.
Now even if they still warp slow they might be considered worth undocking if we do it right this time.
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Jacob Katruun
Varitec Security LLC
1
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Posted - 2014.12.20 17:56:18 -
[450] - Quote
So for logistics Battleships
I am most familiar with Caldari so I shall use that as an example and hope someone can translate my idea into other fations
Since there are already t2 Hulls for the other two battleships, I suppose this leaves the Rokh as the Logistics base.
Basically a halfway point between a Basilisk and a Chimera
-even more resists, maybe 10% per level instead of 4%? -much less PG (no guns ofc) I'm not sure what else to even suggest here
but basic concept: -8 high slots for remote shield and cap transfers -Bonuses to shield and cap transfers, give maybe 100 km range at logi 5 -like basi and chimera, designed to be in a cap chain, not meant to be stable on own |
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