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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1888
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Posted - 2014.11.08 03:09:53 -
[1] - Quote
There are quite a few medium ships that can reach battleship level buffer tank while remaining much smaller and more mobile. I see no reason not to let battleships have a more significant advantage in the buffer department than they do currently.
3200mm Reinforced Steel Plates I Powergrid: 2000 MW CPU: 35 Tf Armor: +6000 Mass: +15,000,000
3200mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Powergrid: 2300 MW CPU: 39 Tf Armor: +9600 Mass: +15,000,000
X-Large Shield Extender I Powergrid: 1250 MW CPU: 50 Tf Shield: +4500 Signature Radius: +87m
X-Large Shield Extender II Powergrid: 1375 MW CPU: 57 Tf Shield: +6300 Signature Radius: +87m
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
31
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Posted - 2014.11.08 04:20:49 -
[2] - Quote
No. Ships in this game already work counter-intuitively as it is. They get quasi-exponential growth of armor compared to growth of gun power. We don't need to make smaller ships already more superfluous than they already are.
If anything, it's the modules that are in line and the ship hps that scale too well.
[quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1890
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Posted - 2014.11.08 04:30:57 -
[3] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:The problem is the modules and fitting ability. you identified a problem (oversize modules allowing extreme tankiness), but drew a conclusion that doesn't match to the game design aspects of NAKED ships. Then the solution is to increase the powergrid requirements for existing armor plates and shield extenders.
I'm okay with that.
It's not the base attributes as much as it is what they can fit on top of it.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1983
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Posted - 2014.11.08 04:59:35 -
[4] - Quote
probably better to increase grid amount of existing mods. BC's could fit those x-large shield extenders with some compromise.
electron blaster ferox with 600dps and 110k+ ehp or something like that. ion shield navy brutix with 930 dps and near 90k tank.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1668
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Posted - 2014.11.08 05:52:40 -
[5] - Quote
Or.... Increase the base HP of BS by a reasonable portion and the percentage increase modules will be better than the 1600mm plates anyway. And then you don't have to buff BS's PG to match the buffs to module fittings and then discover you now have BS's pulling all sorts of crazy fits they never used to be able to because of it. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
230
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Posted - 2014.11.08 06:27:07 -
[6] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or.... Increase the base HP of BS by a reasonable portion and the percentage increase modules will be better than the 1600mm plates anyway. And then you don't have to buff BS's PG to match the buffs to module fittings and then discover you now have BS's pulling all sorts of crazy fits they never used to be able to because of it. I can see room for a bit of both. not something ridiculously large as buffing battleship grid that far, or straight incorporating these into the ships to begin with. A larger plate is also unlikely to be needed, while the XL extenders seem a little heavy on the sig relative to the shield. An XL armor rep might be needed though.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
367
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Posted - 2014.11.08 06:54:26 -
[7] - Quote
I think I posted something along these lines several times. Good idea that needs to happen; the buffer margin between bc's and battleships is too thin. +1 |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
255
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Posted - 2014.11.08 08:31:15 -
[8] - Quote
Oh yes, bog standard T1 ships all running around with 200k ehp, that's a thing that needs to happen.
-1
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1891
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:29:50 -
[9] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:probably better to increase grid amount of existing mods. BC's could fit those x-large shield extenders with some compromise.
electron blaster ferox with 600dps and 110k+ ehp or something like that. ion shield navy brutix with 930 dps and near 90k tank. With a lot of compromise. Sure, blasters can score you some DPS without costing much powergrid, but they have terrible range. Then try fitting the microwarpdrive you WILL need to make the fit useful and suddenly the only way you're getting that extender on is with a bunch of powergrid upgrades, preventing you from fitting as much for resists and other things. So I'm not worried about such a fringe case, though I'm also not opposed to a slight increase in the powergrid requirements of ALL shield extenders and armor plates.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or.... Increase the base HP of BS by a reasonable portion and the percentage increase modules will be better than the 1600mm plates anyway. And then you don't have to buff BS's PG to match the buffs to module fittings and then discover you now have BS's pulling all sorts of crazy fits they never used to be able to because of it. I'd increase their base HP by a bit too, but I believe in compromise. I think battleships should have to sacrifice something to get the top hit points. That's why I would not suggest increasing their powergrid just to make fitting these easier. It's already easy enough.
James Baboli wrote:I can see room for a bit of both. not something ridiculously large as buffing battleship grid that far, or straight incorporating these into the ships to begin with. A larger plate is also unlikely to be needed, while the XL extenders seem a little heavy on the sig relative to the shield. An XL armor rep might be needed though. I disagree about the sig radius. I think the LSE gives a rather small sig radius increase for how much HP it gives. In fact if you look at the trend of armor plates and shield extenders, the LSE gives more HP than it should to follow the normal curve, and it costs less powergrid.
A large sig radius bonus like that is also going to discourage the XLSE further from being fitted onto battlecruisers, while battleships won't be bothered too much by it.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
251
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:31:36 -
[10] - Quote
Fully support this...battleships are far too easy to kill/gank.
+1 |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10557
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:37:48 -
[11] - Quote
The problem with battleships is their strategic vulnerabilities, not their literal ones. Things like the warp speed nerf did far more damage than can be easily accounted for, for instance. Another is their overall lack of scan resolution, which I think could use an across the board buff.
But as for their tank? Hardly. Many of them offer the largest buffer/isk spent ratio among ship classes. Yes, you can get larger amounts in some specialized ship classes, but often for a higher sticker price and training time.
But the problems with battleships are not either in dps or hitpoints. It's in the small things, the details and the little bits.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
443
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:44:05 -
[12] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:probably better to increase grid amount of existing mods. BC's could fit those x-large shield extenders with some compromise.
electron blaster ferox with 600dps and 110k+ ehp or something like that. ion shield navy brutix with 930 dps and near 90k tank.
..eeek! Or they start putting those on carriers and titans.
But that would also cater to more = better and the powercreep continues.
signature
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1891
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:49:01 -
[13] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The problem with battleships is their strategic vulnerabilities, not their literal ones. Things like the warp speed nerf did far more damage than can be easily accounted for, for instance. Another is their overall lack of scan resolution, which I think could use an across the board buff.
But as for their tank? Hardly. Many of them offer the largest buffer/isk spent ratio among ship classes. If you are talking about fits in which the module costs well outweigh the hull, then sure, battleships get more out of the one-size-fits-all resistance modules. But if we're going on the cost of the ship itself esp. with cheap fittings (Tech 2 and down) then you'll easily get more EHP for your money with a cruiser or battlecruiser. It just quickly gets expensive to keep increasing it once you hit the ceiling with tech 2 mods.
I think the strategic vulnerabilities of battleships are an excellent thing to have. For too long, they were too easy to use and move around. Because of that, CCP made sure they weren't particularly powerful. But now that they are so clunky, maybe they can get some buffs to make them actually stand out.
elitatwo wrote:..eeek! Or they start putting those on carriers and titans.
But that would also cater to more = better and the powercreep continues. More shitfits to laugh at on killmails? I hardly think that's a problem.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10559
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Posted - 2014.11.10 01:58:03 -
[14] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: If you are talking about fits in which the module costs well outweigh the hull, then sure, battleships get more out of the one-size-fits-all resistance modules. But if we're going on the cost of the ship itself esp. with cheap fittings (Tech 2 and down) then you'll easily get more EHP for your money with a cruiser or battlecruiser.
What? Pretty sure I cannot, in fact, get more hitpoints from a Maller or Prophecy than I can from an Abaddon.
Tech 2 mods or otherwise.
For a single player, a battleship is the most hitpoints you can achieve with a tech 1 hull. And it is still rather cost effective.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
443
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Posted - 2014.11.10 02:04:53 -
[15] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:elitatwo wrote:..eeek! Or they start putting those on carriers and titans.
But that would also cater to more = better and the powercreep continues. More shitfits to laugh at on killmails? I hardly think that's a problem.
No that is not what I am saying.
If we get those modules implemented it will not take long before the first outcry for more dps comes and we have the same problem all over again.
signature
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1671
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Posted - 2014.11.10 02:14:17 -
[16] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What? Pretty sure I cannot, in fact, get more hitpoints from a Maller or Prophecy than I can from an Abaddon.
Tech 2 mods or otherwise.
For a single player, a battleship is the most hitpoints you can achieve with a tech 1 hull. And it is still rather cost effective.
The number of mallers needed to equal said BS are normally far more isk efficient though, which is what you were claiming. I'm sure an edge case might say otherwise with a particular bait EHP fit, but normally speaking BS EHP are not Isk efficient compared to some smaller ships. And there is certainly room for their buffer to increase a bit to distinguish them more from BC's. It should be in the interests of distinguishing the class though and done in a way which doesn't allow for them to increase other things. Upping the PG for example simply makes it vastly easier to fit top tier guns and stay with the current EHP. Which is why I said base EHP should be where it's touched, not PG which then affects everything else at the same time.
There is also a huge gulf from a BS up to a Capital which makes no sense why it's such a huge jump which upping BS EHP would make a more even graduation across classes.
It's also either EHP or more firepower, or undoing all the strategic mobility nerfs that CCP dumped on them. Since CCP have acknowledged that BC's & BS are not doing well in the meta compared to the lighter classes or caps, being either too light, or too immobile. So they need something to give them an overall buff. Why not EHP? It doesn't increase local tank so it's not going to have very much impact at all on missions. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10559
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Posted - 2014.11.10 02:25:14 -
[17] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: The number of mallers needed to equal said BS are normally far more isk efficient though, which is what you were claiming.
No, it's not.
I'm saying that, once you have the hull, that pound for pound no tech 1 hull class offers more hitpoints for the price of the modules. a T2 resist module gives more benefit to a battleship than to a battlecruiser, pretty much universally.
Quote: There is also a huge gulf from a BS up to a Capital which makes no sense why it's such a huge jump which upping BS EHP would make a more even graduation across classes.
Well, when you get down to it, that's just because capital ships are ludicrously overpowered, based on an opportunity cost fallacy that CCP still refuses to address.
Quote: It's also either EHP or more firepower, or undoing all the strategic mobility nerfs that CCP dumped on them.
Well, putting aside the other potential solutions, the answer is the latter. It was poorly conceived and they need to take it back, and more besides.
Quote: Since CCP have acknowledged that BC's & BS are not doing well in the meta compared to the lighter classes or caps, being either too light, or too immobile. So they need something to give them an overall buff. Why not EHP? It doesn't increase local tank so it's not going to have very much impact at all on missions.
Both of those ship classes suffer from a lack of mobility, but battlecruisers also suffer from a severe lack of damage mitigation. They don't have the speed or low sig to tank damage that way, and they don't have the cap or native hitpoints to tank damage the other way. They also fail to benefit in any significant way in the dps category either.
Overall, battlecruisers are in a very, very poor place of balance.
As for "why not EHP?", I will tell you why.
They're already on the extreme end of that spectrum of damage mitigation. They don't need to go any further, as that not only justifies their prior nerfs, but also creates power creep in a similar manner to capitals (which have been an irrefutable disaster for game balance).
They need a utility buff, that's about it. Better scan res, some of them need bigger dronebays, and some of them need their weapons readjusted (lasers and projectiles being the biggest issue among Large size guns).
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Brothers of Tangra
1234
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Posted - 2014.11.10 03:15:22 -
[18] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Overall, battlecruisers are in a very, very poor place of balance.
As for "why not EHP?", I will tell you why.
They're already on the extreme end of that spectrum of damage mitigation. They don't need to go any further, as that not only justifies their prior nerfs, but also creates power creep in a similar manner to capitals (which have been an irrefutable disaster for game balance).
They need a utility buff, that's about it. Better scan res, some of them need bigger dronebays, and some of them need their weapons readjusted (lasers and projectiles being the biggest issue among Large size guns).
At least this guy gets it. Power creep on hp is NOT the answer. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2014.11.10 06:07:39 -
[19] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:The problem is the modules and fitting ability. you identified a problem (oversize modules allowing extreme tankiness), but drew a conclusion that doesn't match to the game design aspects of NAKED ships. Then the solution is to increase the powergrid requirements for existing armor plates and shield extenders. I'm okay with that. It's not the base attributes as much as it is what they can fit on top of it.
That was kind of my point. If they can fit stuff that completely disregards the base stats, then there's not really a balance. The base stats of a ship should take up a majority of what that ship can do, if you want ships to be inherently powerful in their own right and their own hull bonuses, rather than just different-skin-version-of-same-ships online.
I want you to imagine a game based around the ships inherent abilities being CORE, and armor/weapon modules being FRACTIONAL improvements that push your ship one way or another. Easier to balance that kind of game, and easier to have satisfying PvP by mitigating coin flip scenarios.
Catherine Laartii wrote:I think I posted something along these lines several times. Good idea that needs to happen; the buffer margin between bc's and battleships is too thin. +1
Right, and it's too thin because of HP from buffer being too good, while fitting also being to lax.
[quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2014.11.10 06:33:08 -
[20] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What? Pretty sure I cannot, in fact, get more hitpoints from a Maller or Prophecy than I can from an Abaddon.
Tech 2 mods or otherwise.
For a single player, a battleship is the most hitpoints you can achieve with a tech 1 hull. And it is still rather cost effective.
The number of mallers needed to equal said BS are normally far more isk efficient though, which is what you were claiming. I'm sure an edge case might say otherwise with a particular bait EHP fit, but normally speaking BS EHP are not Isk efficient compared to some smaller ships.
And that is exactly how it should be. More power should be more inefficient in isk/power ratio to get/field.
[quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
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HiddenPorpoise
Under Dark Sins of our Fathers
282
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Posted - 2014.11.10 07:31:52 -
[21] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:But as for their tank? Hardly. Many of them offer the largest buffer/isk spent ratio among ship classes. Yes, you can get larger amounts in some specialized ship classes, but often for a higher sticker price and training time. Battleships have worse cost to tank ratios than destroyers. |
Sigras
Conglomo
976
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Posted - 2014.11.10 07:38:22 -
[22] - Quote
The abaddon does about 32% more damage and has 12% less EHP than the absolution and costing about 30% less.
the navy armageddon has 11% more EHP, does 25% more damage and costs 33% more
Maybe battleships could use slightly more EHP but otherwise seems fairly incomparable to me. Perhaps 11-12%... This would make the abaddon equal to the absolution in EHP and widen the gap between the navy geddon and the abaddon. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
233
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Posted - 2014.11.10 07:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What? Pretty sure I cannot, in fact, get more hitpoints from a Maller or Prophecy than I can from an Abaddon.
Tech 2 mods or otherwise.
For a single player, a battleship is the most hitpoints you can achieve with a tech 1 hull. And it is still rather cost effective.
The number of mallers needed to equal said BS are normally far more isk efficient though, which is what you were claiming. I'm sure an edge case might say otherwise with a particular bait EHP fit, but normally speaking BS EHP are not Isk efficient compared to some smaller ships. And that is exactly how it should be. More power should be more inefficient in power/isk ratio to get/field. As it stands, it is asymptotically more expensive. I would like to see one of the limits moves slightly, so that the break-point is going to capitals and deadspace, rather than battleships being unusable, and faction mods being purely for uberl337 PVPers, capitals and carebearing.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2014.11.10 09:18:17 -
[24] - Quote
Everyone used BSes before HACs and tiericide (and T3 cruiser), fwiw.
[quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
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Litchi FayeLing
A Miserable Little Pile Of Secrets
4
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Posted - 2014.11.10 09:58:52 -
[25] - Quote
Delete every small buffer item from the game, then move all the names down a tier (400 plates get called 200 plates, MSEs become SSEs) then you can introduce a higher tier for the large veriety but make fitting real high.
As it is, things like SSEs are only in the game to laugh at when people put them on ships. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2014.11.10 10:43:17 -
[26] - Quote
Litchi FayeLing wrote:Delete every small buffer item from the game, then move all the names down a tier (400 plates get called 200 plates, MSEs become SSEs) then you can introduce a higher tier for the large veriety but make fitting real high.
As it is, things like SSEs are only in the game to laugh at when people put them on ships.
Unless you've maxed out your fit and still have an empty slot, and there's only something like 3-4 pg and cpu left. Then why not?
[quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
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Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2014.11.10 11:19:43 -
[27] - Quote
Litchi FayeLing wrote:Delete every small buffer item from the game, then move all the names down a tier (400 plates get called 200 plates, MSEs become SSEs) then you can introduce a higher tier for the large veriety but make fitting real high.
As it is, things like SSEs are only in the game to laugh at when people put them on ships. If every item get moved down a tier, then the "new" 1600mm and LSE could have properly sized BS bonus, no need for new item. Heck if necessary we could even move everything down two tier to get extra large buffer modules.
As you pointed out, these modules are never used except on failfit. Micro Shield Extender Small Shield Extender
50mm Reinforced Steel Plate 100mm Reinforced Steel Plate |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1359
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Posted - 2014.11.10 14:24:27 -
[28] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Everyone used BSes before HACs and tiericide (and T3 cruiser), fwiw.
Because back then, a BS had the same strategic mobility as a HAC since they had the same warp speed. Deploying 5 system away from home had about 20 seconds total of difference in arrival time because you lost a few seconds on each align but that was all. Now even if the BS had way better EHP, it would still be a strategic choice to either bring the ship wit more staying power or the one who gets there faster. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
274
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Posted - 2014.11.10 14:28:35 -
[29] - Quote
Odithia wrote:As you pointed out, these modules are never used except on failfit.... 100mm Reinforced Steel Plate How very dare you.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
753
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Posted - 2014.11.10 14:29:04 -
[30] - Quote
Hmmm, perhaps once the usefullnes of the fitting service offered by the Nestor has been tried we could consider a module that allows the same function on any BS (leaving the Nestor unique in having it built in). Would be a low slot but would give a BS a new flexibility in gangs and a pair can work together to counter situations as they arise (refit small guns if frigs turn up etc). Being a module means sacrificing some utility in return for basically a plugged in mobile depot. |
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