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HeXxploiT
Little Red X
51
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Posted - 2014.11.09 17:27:02 -
[1] - Quote
Have noticed that T2 Module & ammo prices have gone through the floor. Is this an unintended consequence of CCP's work on manufacturing or is CCP deliberately attempting to make items & ammo more affordable? Has the associated cost of producing T2 modules & ammo become cheaper or has the increased competition simply driven prices down? Can anyone shed some light on this subject? |
Rumbaldi
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
6
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Posted - 2014.11.09 17:37:54 -
[2] - Quote
I think it is a down to increased competition becuase a lot more people are trying industry and the skills needed to actually do industry at a higher level has been lowered. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
562
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Posted - 2014.11.10 10:48:14 -
[3] - Quote
Margins are trashed by the invention change. It used to be that if you were doing module or ammo invention, you would unavoidably have downtime as the invention jobs were fairly short - now you can invent multiples in a row, setting up the invention job length to match your play schedule.
So any serious module/ammo inventor just increased their throughput quite a bit. Since demand didn't really change... prices go down.
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350125GO
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
125
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Posted - 2014.11.10 16:09:18 -
[4] - Quote
With the changes to industry also came a drastic reduction in the time to build ammo (they halved the time). This resulted in a flood of T2 ammo that won't go away.
Margins are **** now for all T2, and sadly, sales volume hasn't increased any. Though they made industry easier and more user friendly, they made it a less likely place to earn your billions. It's easier to run incursions than to get rich on manufacturing T2 goods.
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4317
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Posted - 2014.11.10 18:34:45 -
[5] - Quote
Although I'm still earning some ISK from manufacturing, my production volume has fallen-off dramatically.
I'm beginning to think I'll have to get more involved in station trading (ick) for ISK earning. |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
193
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Posted - 2014.11.10 19:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:now you can invent multiples in a row, setting up the invention job length to match your play schedule. So any serious module/ammo inventor just increased their throughput quite a bit. Since demand didn't really change... prices go down. I think the decreasing margins has to do with the unlimited slots, POS changes and UI improvements and the barriers to entry they removed. The impact of multiple inventions is just going to make the margins even smaller. Now that IPH is back, people can quickly find the profitable item and the margin moves down in a few days.
I've decided to give up on the goal I've been working on since before Crius of making xx Billion from industry. I've got my toons trained and a nice stockpile of researched BPO's, invented copies and mats but realized it's just too much work for the isk payoff and amount of fun involved.
So I'm going to leave it to the players better at it than me and just invent stuff for myself on the side. The advantage of giving up industry is that it will allow me to go back to my vagabond ways of moving around the universe periodically. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
349
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Posted - 2014.11.11 00:07:17 -
[7] - Quote
The reason why the margins on T2 ammo were good was because it used to take 2 weeks to produced 50,000 rounds of ammo. This was the main cost associated with T2 ammo, the time it tied up your assembly line. Now it takes a day to build. So each person producing T2 ammo, can manufacture 14x as much ammo, or produce other things for 13 days and still see the same production.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
13
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Posted - 2014.11.11 07:44:56 -
[8] - Quote
As iam now able to produce 2 to 3 times the volume i used to produce before, I am able to cut my margin by 1/2 to 1/3 of what it used to be. As i was satisfied with margins before, i might even go further. So price drops of up to 50% (depending on margins before, which were quite high in some cases) will still be acceptable for me, before i need to thing to go out of business producing t2 modules.
Happy to bring all this new product to you podheads so you can destroy each other with much lower cost ;)
ah and to all that speculators...the price drop is not over... |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
199
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Posted - 2014.11.11 16:27:33 -
[9] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Although I'm still earning some ISK from manufacturing, my production volume has fallen-off dramatically.
I'm beginning to think I'll have to get more involved in station trading (ick) for ISK earning.
If Tau is saying this you know CCP have cacked up the market with their unnecessary changes. Best you can do really is sell your stuff where other people aren't selling it. Then you can try and keep your prices a little higher.
" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick.
" Find out what ? "-áAbraham.
" They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick.
Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
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Agnes Stix
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.11.12 15:05:40 -
[10] - Quote
I think most dedicated T2 manufacturers have been cutting their losses and gtfo fast as possible. I know people who were more cynical (smarter) than me who sold of their indy characters before Crius became common knowledge.
I have now also cut my losses, packed up my stuff and this account (my indy account) will be unsubbed in a few days.
We'll just have to wait and see what the final result will be for this.
I think what we are seeing now is very few dedicated t2 manufaturers left that don't PvP or actually use their isk for anything but t2 investment, producing vast amounts of t2 moduels (see the 1000+ t2 module sell orders nowadays) and lots of newbros producing small amounts and then moving on to other things. |
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
167
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:25:20 -
[11] - Quote
I went out to build caps before Crius and missed a lot of the market adjustments from that time and after. I have now given up renting in deep null with Phoebe and have returned to T2 manufacturing to find that, while the process is so much better, the market is fairly bleak.
A lot of people are mentioning aspects that are on target. More people doing industry is a factor, with regard to ammo, the time reduction is likely the largest factor. However, while ammo, and T2 ammo has significantly reduced margins, ISK/hr is not so much affected because of the shorter build times, as one poster on this thread mentioned. And although ammo margins used to be insane, it never really was very good ISK/hr.
While there are still margins to be had, the money-making products are quite a bit less. Manufacturing used to be my bread and butter. I am considering making changes the way I earn ISK. |
Agnes Stix
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.11.12 19:19:52 -
[12] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:I went out to build caps before Crius and missed a lot of the market adjustments from that time and after. I have now given up renting in deep null with Phoebe and have returned to T2 manufacturing to find that, while the process is so much better, the market is fairly bleak.
A lot of people are mentioning aspects that are on target. More people doing industry is a factor, with regard to ammo, the time reduction is likely the largest factor. However, while ammo, and T2 ammo has significantly reduced margins, ISK/hr is not so much affected because of the shorter build times, as one poster on this thread mentioned. And although ammo margins used to be insane, it never really was very good ISK/hr.
While there are still margins to be had, the money-making products are quite a bit less. Manufacturing used to be my bread and butter. I am considering making changes the way I earn ISK.
Actually isk/h is much affected because you need to sell it as well and as 350125GO said sales volume hasn't increased any.
On top of that you now need several times more isk to invest. Meaning you have to wait until you have a much bigger stack of isk before you can use even a small amount of it.
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Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
814
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Posted - 2014.11.12 19:46:03 -
[13] - Quote
T2 modules will recover some of their price drop once the meta enhanced copies are depleted.
The last patch took the meta option out of the research process and I haven't seen increases in datacores to suggest people are spamming copies yet. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
619
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Posted - 2014.11.13 15:44:01 -
[14] - Quote
Agnes Stix wrote:Actually isk/h is much affected because you need to sell it as well and as 350125GO said sales volume hasn't increased any. ..and because the amount each player can produce has massively increased, the number of players that can be gainfully employed by T2 production has been massively reduced. |
Sma Zakalwe
Zetetic Ammunition and Kinetic Supplies
1
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Posted - 2014.11.13 17:07:24 -
[15] - Quote
Yep - producing T2 missiles not really worth the candle now - time to adapt to something else..... |
Agnes Stix
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.11.13 19:15:19 -
[16] - Quote
The market may survive but I suspect without many of us who took our profits from production and actually created PvP content and/or other active content with it.
New players might initially have an easier time getting in to T2 production but as you try to expand now only people who hoard their isk will benefit from these "revolutionary" changes, the ones who don't might as well start looking at other things right away.
Clearly this is the better system...CLEARLY |
adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
15
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Posted - 2014.11.13 23:52:07 -
[17] - Quote
Ocih wrote:T2 modules will recover some of their price drop once the meta enhanced copies are depleted.
The last patch took the meta option out of the research process and I haven't seen increases in datacores to suggest people are spamming copies yet.
some of us have decades worth of copies in storage...
----True oldschool solo pvp'er----
My latest vid: Insanity IV
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350125GO
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
125
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Posted - 2014.11.14 14:29:31 -
[18] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:..and because the amount each player can produce has massively increased, the number of players that can be gainfully employed by T2 production has been massively reduced.
Yes. And god forbid you put more than 50k of any unit on the market and the fools rush to drop prices even further. T2 production seems to have become more of a novelty now than a career.
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
815
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Posted - 2014.11.14 19:39:50 -
[19] - Quote
adriaans wrote:Ocih wrote:T2 modules will recover some of their price drop once the meta enhanced copies are depleted.
The last patch took the meta option out of the research process and I haven't seen increases in datacores to suggest people are spamming copies yet. some of us have decades worth of copies in storage...
Decades worth based on current losses. That's another matter already mentioned in this thread. |
Awesome MILF
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.11.14 22:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
350125GO wrote:With the changes to industry also came a drastic reduction in the time to build ammo (they halved the time). This resulted in a flood of T2 ammo that won't go away.
Margins are **** now for all T2, and sadly, sales volume hasn't increased any. Though they made industry easier and more user friendly, they made it a less likely place to earn your billions. It's easier to run incursions than to get rich on manufacturing T2 goods.
This.
Manufacturing 50.000 heavy mjolnirs used to take 8 days, now it takes 15 hours. LMAO? Everyone and his dog can manufacture millions of them every week, whereas you need a whole year to waste those same missiles you have made in 15 hours. Absurd.
btw I have lost billions of potential profits cause I invested on this a year ago. |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3617
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Posted - 2014.11.16 22:21:13 -
[21] - Quote
This is almost solely caused by the indirect buff to tech 2 BPOs for ammunition. BPOs that used to produce 300k units of ammo per month can now produce (literally) millions and in the absence of a massive, massive increase in ships popping, this is more than the end user demand.
I panic sold all of my T2 ammunition except for a couple weeks worth of personal use ammo a week after Crius landed for that reason, and two or three other items that were also affected by their T2 BPOs being buffed.
www.minerbumping.com - Mining accidents are increasing. Get your permit now.
Ganking doesn't need a purpose, the gank is its own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I gank.
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Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
13
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Posted - 2014.11.17 07:24:27 -
[22] - Quote
all these tears....
.people are always the same.....its EVE,
adapt or die
and
can i haz your stuff pls? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
645
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Posted - 2014.11.17 09:41:07 -
[23] - Quote
Interesting, personally while margins are not what they were I'm still making a respectable profit and thanks to the invention changes actually have more game time to spend on other things.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
51
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Posted - 2014.11.18 02:03:16 -
[24] - Quote
with the recent invention changes, my costs have all but overrun my margin after the changed one of my datacores to cost 3x as much. Thankfully i timed my last batch of materials well enough that i'm out of materials to build from just as this hit.
And to all you who said, 'well, demand hasn't changed, but i can still make the same IPH because i'm making up for the lost margin in volume'....well guess how long that will go on? Yeah, definitely not very long, as the price will ultimately reflect the new demand.
I think eventually there may be spurts of decent margins on some items...from all the serious contenders having left those markets, but they will only be little bumps as they will get swamped again.
i just took down my indy POS because it lost its edge in regards to T2 modules...2% ME reduction doesn't mean much when you only have 6 units to begin with.
The massively reduced build time and lack of skills barrier is what has brought the margins down. I kinda wish CCP would apply the same logic to the skills needed to fly the ships...because then everyone would be flying T2 ships, which might help increase the market volume. I mean, its only fair that the newbs should never be at any disadvantage because they don't have the same number of SP as a vet...right? |
Ellion Calyce
I.X Research
0
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Posted - 2014.11.18 07:42:36 -
[25] - Quote
What's amusing is the amount of panic dumping going on. There's a lot of stuff being flogged at stupidly cheap prices. I've seen certain modules being sold for as low as 40% their mineral costs without even factoring in invention and manufacturing costs. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3643
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Posted - 2014.11.20 04:55:40 -
[26] - Quote
I'm quite fine with cutting my losses and dumping in the markets I'm permanently leaving. I could hold my T2 ammo and hope to get 300m slowly, or I can dump it now, get 150m, and not have to pay attention to that market again (except as a consumer).
I can see no forseeable circumstance that results in me wanting to return to that market now. My time is worth more than the extra 150m or so I might otherwise get.
Crius has just made overproduction worse in EVE, and EVE's economy has always been based upon massive overproduction.
www.minerbumping.com - Mining accidents are increasing. Get your permit now.
Ganking doesn't need a purpose, the gank is its own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I gank.
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Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
112
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Posted - 2014.11.20 06:37:25 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:I'm quite fine with cutting my losses and dumping in the markets I'm permanently leaving.
Well I guess leaving production is assist in reducing over production, Good work. |
Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS Rising Darkness
12
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Posted - 2014.11.21 11:52:04 -
[28] - Quote
There is a "reckoning" coming in the T2 module/ammo/drone production market.
It has been pushed off awhile (probably until spring or so) with things like the consolidation going on in null sec and possibly with Thera if it does actually turn into some sort of market hub.
For now, the changes that Crius brought make it so you have to work twice as hard, to make half as much. There are still profits to be had, but good margins will be harder to find.
Eventually, the T2 module/ammo/drone market will look a lot like the T1 market. Overproduction on all fronts. And with refine rates in the 50% region... there will be a severe penalty for producing the "wrong thing".
What CCP should have done is to have double or tripled the production time on everything to make more room in the market for more manufacturers. Similar to what they did with T2 ship production.
But meh, they tend to do irrational things like this every now and again. I am sure they have their reasons--hell if I know what they are.
Overall, the changes in Crius, made less room for new manufacturing players, not more.
Colossal f**K-up by CCP in my book. But hey, adapt or die right?
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
795
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Posted - 2014.11.21 12:14:31 -
[29] - Quote
350125GO wrote:Margins are **** now for all T2, and sadly, sales volume hasn't increased any. Though they made industry easier and more user friendly, they made it a less likely place to earn your billions. It's easier to run incursions than to get rich on manufacturing T2 goods.
this is what people seem not to understand, they spammed forums with their "ideas" and "suggestions" to make industry "better" and "easier", completely ignoring obvious consequences from effort = profit formula. Easy industry = more people doing it = less profit. You people killed your own niche with constant crying for "improvements". |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
201
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:52:38 -
[30] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:this is what people seem not to understand, they spammed forums with their "ideas" and "suggestions" to make industry "better" and "easier", completely ignoring obvious consequences from effort = profit formula. I think there were suggestions to remove tedium from the UI, but CCP pursued removing all barriers to entry, striving to localize manufacturing, introducing teams, and making most user skills/decisions further increase production throughput on their own.
Net is they have a much improved user experience that accommodates new players who will likely not end up making very much isk.
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