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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Valterra Craven
320
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:26:56 -
[571] - Quote
Warr Akini wrote:
And Valterra, I follow your meaning. You may want to consider looking at the Kill Right mechanic and the nerfs to security status ticks made several months ago.
In my opinion it wasn't enough. If you are going to play a permanent criminal you should have to have the consequences of a permanent criminal for more than just 30 days, and that means blinky red or yellow. |
Slap Chop
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:27:01 -
[572] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Klyith wrote:Valterra Craven wrote: That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization.
Nah. Get yourself billions of dollars and you can get away with murder, even mass murder, in the real world. Even in that example, it would seem that the amount of people able to achieve that level of get out of jail is very low, compared to anyone being able to do that in Eve.
Similar to how the amount of people able to effectively gank freighters in EVE is very low. |
Warr Akini
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:29:04 -
[573] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Warr Akini wrote:
And Valterra, I follow your meaning. You may want to consider looking at the Kill Right mechanic and the nerfs to security status ticks made several months ago.
In my opinion it wasn't enough. If you are going to play a permanent criminal you should have to have the consequences of a permanent criminal for more than just 30 days, and that means blinky red or yellow.
I understand you, but let me explain something you may not be considering - when you have 100 kill rights from ganking 100 guys, you are basically vulnerable at all times. And those kill rights keep getting generated -all the time-. That means if you are a permanent criminal, you are permanently vulnerable. I promise. |
Valterra Craven
320
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:29:31 -
[574] - Quote
Slap Chop wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Klyith wrote:Valterra Craven wrote: That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization.
Nah. Get yourself billions of dollars and you can get away with murder, even mass murder, in the real world. Even in that example, it would seem that the amount of people able to achieve that level of get out of jail is very low, compared to anyone being able to do that in Eve. Similar to how the amount of people able to effectively gank freighters in EVE is very low.
You will note I did not limit my point to just freighters. I'm talking about ALL hi sec ganking, which comparatively every tom **** and harry can accomplish. |
Valterra Craven
320
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:30:18 -
[575] - Quote
Warr Akini wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Warr Akini wrote:
And Valterra, I follow your meaning. You may want to consider looking at the Kill Right mechanic and the nerfs to security status ticks made several months ago.
In my opinion it wasn't enough. If you are going to play a permanent criminal you should have to have the consequences of a permanent criminal for more than just 30 days, and that means blinky red or yellow. I understand you, but let me explain something you may not be considering - when you have 100 kill rights from ganking 100 guys, you are basically vulnerable at all times. And those kill rights keep getting generated -all the time-. That means if you are a permanent criminal, you are permanently vulnerable. I promise.
You are not permanently vulnerable in the same way that blinky is. |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
158
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:34:25 -
[576] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Klyith wrote:Valterra Craven wrote: That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization.
Nah. Get yourself billions of dollars and you can get away with murder, even mass murder, in the real world. Even in that example, it would seem that the amount of people able to achieve that level of get out of jail is very low, compared to anyone being able to do that in Eve. Capsuleers are the rarest of the rare and the richest of the rich. Every eve player who can pay off tags for sec is throwing away several Warren Buffets of money to get Concord to "forget" their crimes.
Anyways it's a dumb train of thought because alts. It eventually leads to saying that CCP has to ban anyone that starts a new account while a previous account has a criminal character. Or that CCP do something like identify real players and spread their criminal status across all characters. People would quit the game. I'd quit and I don't even gank but once in a blue moon. |
Warr Akini
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:35:22 -
[577] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Warr Akini wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Warr Akini wrote:
And Valterra, I follow your meaning. You may want to consider looking at the Kill Right mechanic and the nerfs to security status ticks made several months ago.
In my opinion it wasn't enough. If you are going to play a permanent criminal you should have to have the consequences of a permanent criminal for more than just 30 days, and that means blinky red or yellow. I understand you, but let me explain something you may not be considering - when you have 100 kill rights from ganking 100 guys, you are basically vulnerable at all times. And those kill rights keep getting generated -all the time-. That means if you are a permanent criminal, you are permanently vulnerable. I promise. You are not permanently vulnerable in the same way that blinky is.
Takes three clicks, hardly a difference. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
336
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:38:56 -
[578] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Warr Akini wrote: Again, try not to assume too much about the ganker mindset. I haven't really been involved in this whole ganking debate, honestly because it shouldn't be part of this thread. But I'd like to add my two cents at this point just because people don't have to assume anything about your mindset or motivations for this "mechanic" to be insanely stupid to begin with. And before I get started on why, no I don't believe hi-sec space should be 100% safe. That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization. In this case you can repair your sec an unlimited number of times. How does that make sense? What needs to happen is that the system needs to be modified so that hi sec gankers after a certain amount of ganks get un-repairable sec status so as to make it very risky for them to move around empire. This allows people to engage in the activity on a limited basis with actual true consequences for their actions should they try to make it a full time career. the instant EVE physics stop treating spaceships like submarines you can start talking about what "reality" says about what should happen |
Valterra Craven
320
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:39:10 -
[579] - Quote
Klyith wrote:
Anyways it's a dumb train of thought because alts. It eventually leads to saying that CCP has to ban anyone that starts a new account while a previous account has a criminal character. Or that CCP do something like identify real players and spread their criminal status across all characters. People would quit the game. I'd quit and I don't even gank but once in a blue moon.
The difference is that alts cost money to train and its burden. I'm not saying it should be taken that far that CCP should ban people for the activity, nor am I saying that restrictions should follow the account. I'm merely saying that the mechanic in its current form needs work because criminal activity should in no way be possible to be a permanent career. Things always catch up to you IRL and they should in game as well.
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Terraniel Aurelius
High Flyers The Kadeshi
9
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:40:15 -
[580] - Quote
I just wanted to point out that you had said in previous discussions that you would like to revisit the idea of letting capitals into high sec. Ostensibly the Bowhead is a replacement for moving fitted ships around that were previously moved by carrier. What would be the benefit to using this instead of a carrier or supercarrier should capitals be allowed in high sec? A super can hold almost 1 million m3 more than this bowhead, with considerably higher defensive capabilities. A carrier also has massively higher defensive capabilities, while being able to carry at least 5/8ths of what the Bowhead can manage. What would be the actual advantages of this ship? Will it be like the primae and be a niche ship that won't see widespread use when there are better options available?
Second - and this is more to do with current mechanics - it's fantastic that this ship can carry fitted ships, but an obelisk can carry 22 unfitted battleships, plus associated fittings. With much better ehp, it should be noted. In view of this, I would suggest an increase in the maintenance bay to accommodate a greater number of ships to increase the risk/reward ratio that this ship carries. I think with the current ehp, an increase to 2million base maintenance bay would be reasonable, allowing for 2.5million with maximum skills. That would allow for 5 fitted battleships maximum. At the very least, this would make using the ship somewhat more attractive. In it's current state I know I would rather move the battleships individually than put them on this death barge. |
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
336
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:40:28 -
[581] - Quote
in my spaceship game where planets are stationary, gravity doesn't exist, spaceships have a maximum velocity that is nowhere near the speed of light, there is sound in space, and faster than light travel exists, what really gets my goat is how unrealistic the space politics of crime are |
Slap Chop
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:44:13 -
[582] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Things always catch up to you IRL
Oh come on, that's just naive. |
Valterra Craven
320
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:47:12 -
[583] - Quote
Slap Chop wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Things always catch up to you IRL
Oh come on, that's just naive.
No, its statistics. |
Master Apollyon
BLACK REGIMENT
0
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:47:34 -
[584] - Quote
Alt forum activated....
Ganking level is way over the top (for whatever reasons).
It stops new players from getting into the game. Its a fact (know several personally).
Go play other game you say... ok... thats the shortsighted view.
I would very much prefer that those play Eve (spending money in Eve) than go play other games...
At this rate Eve dies not because of poor CCP decisons in design/gameplay but because they allow this to happen.
On topic... if this ship is fairly easy gankable no one is going to use it specially for its supposed task. |
Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising The Bastion
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:47:49 -
[585] - Quote
Warr Akini wrote:
Thanks for making your argument horribly flawed by adding the ad hominem attack at the end. Looks great, I tell you.
As for B), how many bulkheaded freighters do you see ganked with nothing in the hold just for 'the tears'? And for that matter, how many do you see ganked at all versus -the number that are flying around-?
And Valterra, I follow your meaning. You may want to consider looking at the Kill Right mechanic and the nerfs to security status ticks made several months ago.
If you can tie in something that would make the number of freighters flying around vs the number getting ganked relevant please bring it to the table. Honestly i don't know what your argument there is.
Valterra's comment has to do with the fact currently a ganker can sit in highsec kill ships/ pods, and all they have to do is turn in some damn tokens they either collected with an alt or bought with an alt and traded to the gank toon. If EVE only allowed one client to run at a time (which for the record i am not promoting!!) things would be different. But given that eve encourages having alts and hs gankers are completely supported by alts in other parts of space the entire criminal system is broken.
Finally, i hope other people can see the irony in a person complaining that there isn't enough "risk vs reward" when 60 gank fit catalyst cost a whopping 390mil total are capable of taking out a ship that the hull alone willl cost over a bill. BEFORE even including what's inside. Don't have the manpower? Use a bigger ship.... You might have to....... (gasp) RISK ships to kill the thing.... o my..... |
Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising The Bastion
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:50:49 -
[586] - Quote
I would like to iterate that I am not in favor of a 100% safe highsec. however, please bring the the last loss mail from a ganker where they failed a gank and the ship they lost was of any sort of serious risk whatsoever.... go ahead I'll wait |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24676
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:52:32 -
[587] - Quote
Master Apollyon wrote:Alt forum activated....
Ganking level is way over the top (for whatever reasons). It stops new players from getting into the game. Its a fact (know several personally). No, and no, in that order.
Ganking levels are pathetically low since ganking has recevied nohting but nerf after nerf after nerf. It could stand to see a significant increase so it became possible to do without the silly amounts of organisation and effort that the two ganking groups operating in the game put into it.
New players are not affected in any way by ganking, other than if they believe the ignorant claims of those who scare them away. No new player flies the ships that are being targeted by ganks, nor do they have anything worth stealing.
Quote:On topic... if this ship is fairly easy gankable no one is going to use it specially for its supposed task. It is, by far, the least gankable ship in its class and among the most difficult to gank in all of highsec. So that is one hell of a silly claim to make. In fact, if these new calculations are correct, the Bowhead now needs a significant HP nerf to become reasonable again.
Sullen Decimus wrote:I would like to iterate that I am not in favor of a 100% safe highsec. however, please bring the the last loss mail from a ganker where they failed a gank and the ship they lost was of any sort of serious risk whatsoever.... go ahead I'll wait You understand that the mechanisms behind the result you're asking for is the exact opposite to what you want them to be, right? You have trouble finding expensive gank losses exactly because the risks have been ratcheted up to such unreasonable levels that no-one sane will ever attempt one without being almost assured that he'll end up in the black.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:52:47 -
[588] - Quote
I went ahead and saved CCP the trouble of writing a themesong for Rhea |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5620
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:56:04 -
[589] - Quote
@Warr Akini
From what I understand, suicide ganking boils down to a no or yes if you do it. The numbers are ran, very rapidly due to 3rd party programs, and you do it (profit) or you do nothing and nothing is risked. There doesn't seem like much grey area. I mean sure there is the whole 50/50 loot drop that can screw you over, but that is factored in because it can obviously go the other way as well. Again, all calculated into the formula to pull the trigger or not.
Am I wrong?
The Paradox
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24677
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:57:30 -
[590] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:@Warr Akini
From what I understand, suicide ganking boils down to a no or yes if you do it. The numbers are ran, very rapidly due to 3rd party programs, and you do it (profit) or you do nothing and nothing is risked. There doesn't seem like much grey area. I mean sure there is the whole 50/50 loot drop that can screw you over, but that is factored in because it can obviously go the other way as well. Again, all calculated into the formula to pull the trigger or not.
Am I wrong? Yes. You are effectively saying that just because you can mitigate a risk, it is zero. This is not the case. Everything put into the calculation is a risk. Just because you choose not to act on it does not mean the risk is removed GÇö quite the opposite.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1661
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 18:58:09 -
[591] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:because criminal activity should in no way be possible to be a permanent career. Why? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24677
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:00:47 -
[592] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:because criminal activity should in no way be possible to be a permanent career. That is probably the most nonsensical thing I have ever seen on these forums.
Not only should it be a possible permanent career GÇö it must be a possible permanent career, or the game is broken on a fundamental level and in dire need of a redesign to make the destruction/production/trade cycle work again.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Lickem Lolly
Achura Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:02:33 -
[593] - Quote
MMOs die for a number of reasons. The main reason is lack of new players. Highsec ganking, in general, is killing Eve; whether it is killing newbs or killing slightly more experienced carebears in freighters. Some people play online games to relax and have fun, without getting abused.
Highsec is not the place for non-consensual PVP. It should be restricted to lowsec and nullsec, where people who are there have chosen to accept the risk.
Making ships ungankable and cargo unscannable helps a little, but it doesn't solve the problem.
CCP, the real problem is not making the old players happy - it is attracting and keeping the new players.
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Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising The Bastion
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:02:45 -
[594] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sullen Decimus wrote:I would like to iterate that I am not in favor of a 100% safe highsec. however, please bring the the last loss mail from a ganker where they failed a gank and the ship they lost was of any sort of serious risk whatsoever.... go ahead I'll wait You understand that the mechanisms behind the result you're asking for is the exact opposite to what you want them to be, right? You have trouble finding expensive gank losses exactly because the risks have been ratcheted up to such unreasonable levels that no-one sane will ever attempt one without being almost assured that he'll end up in the black.
Or the fact that risking anything for a gank is completely unnecessary so why bother in anything than a destroyer that outputs more dps than most cruisers? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5479
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:03:03 -
[595] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Slap Chop wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Things always catch up to you IRL
Oh come on, that's just naive. No, its statistics.
No, its naive... here's some statistics: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/clearances
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Warr Akini
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:04:47 -
[596] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:@Warr Akini
From what I understand, suicide ganking boils down to a no or yes if you do it. The numbers are ran, very rapidly due to 3rd party programs, and you do it (profit) or you do nothing and nothing is risked. There doesn't seem like much grey area. I mean sure there is the whole 50/50 loot drop that can screw you over, but that is factored in because it can obviously go the other way as well. Again, all calculated into the formula to pull the trigger or not.
Am I wrong? Yes. You are effectively saying that just because you can mitigate a risk, it is zero. This is not the case. Everything put into the calculation is a risk. Just because you choose not to act on it does not mean the risk is removed GÇö quite the opposite.
That's about right. And CCP has repeatedly increased the risk of failure/loss:
- Kill rights accessible to all (risk to gankers of dying en route)
- Looting a can you don't own makes you suspect (major risk to looters)
- Security status tick nerf (increased time it takes to get back, and no one I know pays for tags)
- Movement of HP in freighters to armor/shield, making logistics more effective vs. us
- Low slots (see: 690k EHP Anshars)
- And more, naturally...
Please also note that these arguments apply to ganking for profit. We do also gank for strategic purposes. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5479
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:06:06 -
[597] - Quote
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Highsec is not the place for non-consensual PVP. It should be restricted to lowsec and nullsec, where people who are there have chosen to accept the risk.
You've accepted the risk of pvp by undocking in any security status. You're in the wrong thread if you think otherwise... wrong game in fact.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Master Apollyon
BLACK REGIMENT
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:06:08 -
[598] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Master Apollyon wrote:Alt forum activated....
Ganking level is way over the top (for whatever reasons). It stops new players from getting into the game. Its a fact (know several personally). No, and no, in that order. Ganking levels are pathetically low since ganking has recevied nohting but nerf after nerf after nerf. It could stand to see a significant increase so it became possible to do without the silly amounts of organisation and effort that the two ganking groups operating in the game put into it. New players are not affected in any way by ganking, other than if they believe the ignorant claims of those who scare them away. No new player flies the ships that are being targeted by ganks, nor do they have anything worth stealing. Quote:On topic... if this ship is fairly easy gankable no one is going to use it specially for its supposed task. It is, by far, the least gankable ship in its class and among the most difficult to gank in all of highsec. So that is one hell of a silly claim to make. In fact, if these new calculations are correct, the Bowhead now needs a significant HP nerf to become reasonable again. Sullen Decimus wrote:I would like to iterate that I am not in favor of a 100% safe highsec. however, please bring the the last loss mail from a ganker where they failed a gank and the ship they lost was of any sort of serious risk whatsoever.... go ahead I'll wait You understand that the mechanisms behind the result you're asking for is the exact opposite to what you want them to be, right? You have trouble finding expensive gank losses exactly because the risks have been ratcheted up to such unreasonable levels that no-one sane will ever attempt one without being almost assured that he'll end up in the black.
Dont put words in my text. I never wrote that it was happening. I wrote that "It stops new players from getting into the game. Its a fact (know several personally)". You shouldnt be so fast criticizing others opinion. Ill make it a bit more clear to you... They knowing that this is possible is enough to think twice about playing Eve... and thats a fact.
I dont care what level of organization is needed (not much judging by some killmails where its easy to see ISboxer at work).
About my comment to the Bowhead again youre too fast criticizing my phrase. I was just pointing the obvious... for those who think its EHP is too much. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24681
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:06:15 -
[599] - Quote
Lickem Lolly wrote:MMOs die for a number of reasons. The main reason is lack of new players. Highsec ganking, in general, is killing Eve; whether it is killing newbs or killing slightly more experienced carebears in freighters. How is it in any way killing EVE?
Quote:Highsec is not the place for non-consensual PVP. This is 100% incorrect. Highsec, like all space (and, indeed, a lot of in-station activities as well), is entirely designed for non-consensual PvP.
Quote:CCP, the real problem is not making the old players happy - it is attracting and keeping the new players. You don't attract new players by offering them a watered down version of what they've read about that only feebly replicates an experience they can have in a bajillion other games.
Sullen Decimus wrote:Or the fact that risking anything for a gank is completely unnecessary so why bother in anything than a destroyer that outputs more dps than most cruisers? Neither of these assertions have any connection to reality.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Jesterspet
POS Consultants Group LLC
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 19:06:18 -
[600] - Quote
FINALLY! Something I have been asking for for a decade now! |
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