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Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
92
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:16:58 -
[1] - Quote
I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1362
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:18:33 -
[2] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly.
Source/data in a meaningful sample size? |
Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
92
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:23:47 -
[3] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly. Source/data in a meaningful sample size?
Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ).
Also I can remember quite a bit from other experiences that fighting geckos was always an issue/annoyance because of the constant wrecking shots they get while all other shots miss.
I've never experienced this volume of wrecking shots with any other drone period in my years of the game. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1362
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:28:33 -
[4] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly. Source/data in a meaningful sample size? Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ). Also I can remember quite a bit from other experiences that fighting geckos was always an issue/annoyance because of the constant wrecking shots they get while all other shots miss. I've never experienced this volume of wrecking shots with any other drone period in my years of the game.
Nice anecdote. Care to provide what I asked for now? |
Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
92
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:32:35 -
[5] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly. Source/data in a meaningful sample size? Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ). Also I can remember quite a bit from other experiences that fighting geckos was always an issue/annoyance because of the constant wrecking shots they get while all other shots miss. I've never experienced this volume of wrecking shots with any other drone period in my years of the game. Nice anecdote. Care to provide what I asked for now?
Im sure someone else who knows what you are talking about can do that. I made the thread merely to attract someone who could collaborate and provide the data you seek. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:45:11 -
[6] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly. Source/data in a meaningful sample size? Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ). Also I can remember quite a bit from other experiences that fighting geckos was always an issue/annoyance because of the constant wrecking shots they get while all other shots miss. I've never experienced this volume of wrecking shots with any other drone period in my years of the game.
Two Geckos shooting a target every 4 seconds for 60 seconds means 480 shots total. The chance of a wrecking shot is 1%. 1% of 480 shots is 4.8 shots, or about 5 shots. Confirmed - Geckos working as intended, same as all other drones. (Just because you have not noticed 1% of shots with other drones being wrecking shots does not mean they haven't been wrecking shots.)
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Havenard
Rubicon Spears Some Say
3
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:51:01 -
[7] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute
And you though that was a lot? This sounds about right to any drone. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
822
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Posted - 2014.11.12 17:53:27 -
[8] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Two Geckos shooting a target every 4 seconds for 60 seconds means 480 shots total.
I don't really care about balancing geckos, but I had to step up and point out your terrible maths. 4 second ROF means that each gecko fires 15 times in 60 seconds. Two geckos therefore fire 30 shots per minute, not 480.
Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
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Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
92
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:14:25 -
[9] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Two Geckos shooting a target every 4 seconds for 60 seconds means 480 shots total.
I don't really care about balancing geckos, but I had to step up and point out your terrible maths. 4 second ROF means that each gecko fires 15 times in 60 seconds. Two geckos therefore fire 30 shots per minute, not 480.
So if Im mathing correctly 16% wrecking shot chance with geckos?
Thats a bit absurd considering wreckings ignore all tracking and range calcs, and usually hit for over 1k with these OP drones. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
862
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:23:50 -
[10] - Quote
There does seem something a bit off with them - I've an alt that has all L2 drone support skills and insta pops NPC frigs with geckos - I've not really looked at the hits/misses to see the ratio of wrecking shots to misses, etc. though. |
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
615
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:40:19 -
[11] - Quote
Your sample size is too small to be statistically meaningful.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
35
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:42:39 -
[12] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Swiftstrike1 wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Two Geckos shooting a target every 4 seconds for 60 seconds means 480 shots total.
I don't really care about balancing geckos, but I had to step up and point out your terrible maths. 4 second ROF means that each gecko fires 15 times in 60 seconds. Two geckos therefore fire 30 shots per minute, not 480. So if Im mathing correctly 16% wrecking shot chance with geckos? Thats a bit absurd considering wreckings ignore all tracking and range calcs, and usually hit for over 1k with these OP drones.
16% of your shots wrecked. That doesn't mean a 16% chance of wrecking.
Given as wrecking chance is a stochastic phenomenon, you want more than a 30-shot sample to be able to say that your percentage of shots wrecking is equivalent to percentage chance of shots wrecking.
That said, lol at 480 shots. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
450
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Posted - 2014.11.12 18:57:03 -
[13] - Quote
Rroff wrote:There does seem something a bit off with them - I've an alt that has all L2 drone support skills and insta pops NPC frigs with geckos - I've not really looked at the hits/misses to see the ratio of wrecking shots to misses, etc. though.
Please do.
Moving on, let's do some math, shall we?
A Myrmidon does 680 and somewhat dps with 2x Gecko and 2x tech2 drone damage amplifier. All Drones have a rate of fire of four seconds. How much hp damage must a drone do to get to 390dps?
Next question, let's assume all NPC frigates have 700ehp. Now with the answer to the first question is it so far of that one Gecko can vaporize that said ship?
A thing about turrets that seem to be not common knowledge.
A turret has an optimal range and a falloff range. Disregarding all tracking a turret can do up to 100% damage in optimal range. At the end of the falloff range of that turret, the damage drops to 50% damage of what you see on your fitting screen.
This range is not the end of the world and it has a higher change of wrecking shots.
Now for the next fact you need some i-magination because it is not shown on any fitting screen or fitting tool. For all turrets in EVE, which include the guns of drones, all turrets at the range of 2x falloff will do zero damage, not before.
signature
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Leonard Nimoy II
Dark Force Protectorate Special Operators Federation Alliance
81
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Posted - 2014.11.12 20:16:29 -
[14] - Quote
Given that they are a limited item worth close to 30mil each, and will eventually grow in price as people keep losing them, I'm going to say a tentative -1 unless CCP plans to introduce more of them to the game. As a highly priced limited edition item, they should be better than t2 or faction heavies.
Keep in mind you can only fly 2 geckos vs. four Ogres for example, the chance of getting a wrecking shot with an ogre could reasonably be half of the gecko and geckos would not be OP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
494
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Posted - 2014.11.12 20:22:21 -
[15] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ).
As I recall - this is how guns work - at least at the ranges you describe: Either it is a wrecking or a miss and nothing in the middle.
I'm sure someone can confirm//has a link. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
729
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Posted - 2014.11.12 20:28:56 -
[16] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Solj RichPopolous wrote:Received 5 wrecking shots from 2 Geckos within 1 minute that flat out missed every other shot. Wrecking shots were received well in excess of the drone's optimal range + fall off ( 15-20km+ ). As I recall - this is how guns work - at least at the ranges you describe: Either it is a wrecking or a miss and nothing in the middle. I'm sure someone can confirm//has a link. This is correct. Hit quality scales up with hit probability. If you "roll" a 100 and it's a hit, you get the highest "normal" quality hit, if you "roll" a 2 and it's a hit, you get the lowest "normal" quality hit. This is why turret damage output scales so dramatically with hit probability.
The exception is wrecking hits. They are always a "roll" of 1. As long as you have a 1% chance of hitting, you can get wrecking hits, so if you're deep in falloff or beyond tracking, you'll either miss (most often) or hit spectacularly (if infrequently).
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
43
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Posted - 2014.11.13 13:06:30 -
[17] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:I can confirm they hit wrecking shots way more than any other drone I've ever seen. Probably what makes them so great honestly.
Data?
Proof?
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1989
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Posted - 2014.11.13 13:21:13 -
[18] - Quote
im not seeing this.
Drones get a high number of wrecking shtos because their hits are individually calculated. They also get a high number of 'freak misses'.
if you ungrouped the guns on your battleship i imagine you'd get something similar.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
535
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Posted - 2014.11.13 13:55:16 -
[19] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Rroff wrote:There does seem something a bit off with them - I've an alt that has all L2 drone support skills and insta pops NPC frigs with geckos - I've not really looked at the hits/misses to see the ratio of wrecking shots to misses, etc. though. Please do. Moving on, let's do some math, shall we? A Myrmidon does 680 and somewhat dps with 2x Gecko and 2x tech2 drone damage amplifier. All Drones have a rate of fire of four seconds. How much hp damage must a drone do to get to 390dps? Next question, let's assume all NPC frigates have 700ehp. Now with the answer to the first question is it so far of that one Gecko can vaporize that said ship? A thing about turrets that seem to be not common knowledge. A turret has an optimal range and a falloff range. Disregarding all tracking a turret can do up to 100% damage in optimal range. At the end of the falloff range of that turret, the damage drops to 50% damage of what you see on your fitting screen. This range is not the end of the world and it has a higher change of wrecking shots. Now for the next fact you need some i-magination because it is not shown on any fitting screen or fitting tool. For all turrets in EVE, which include the guns of drones, all turrets at the range of 2x falloff will do zero damage, not before.
why I wished many would go beyond the basic top screen of fitting tool of choice and use the dps graphing. It shows a lot more.
Rest of this....sounds like op had a rough night at the crap tables. It happens. Or there is side story not being share. I know a great way to get wrecking shots chance increased. Fly really badly. Why I stopped playing eve completely 3 sheets to the wind lol. |
Jur Tissant
The TERRA Guardians of Serenity
302
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Posted - 2014.11.13 15:04:30 -
[20] - Quote
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
So if Im mathing correctly 16% wrecking shot chance with geckos?
Thats a bit absurd considering wreckings ignore all tracking and range calcs, and usually hit for over 1k with these OP drones.
I won the lottery after buying 3 tickets. Therefore there is a 33% chance of winning the lottery. See the problem?
If you really want to prove this is an issue, then duel a friend with Geckos for several minutes, count the total number of Gecko shots and the total number of wrecking shots. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
863
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Posted - 2014.11.13 15:06:26 -
[21] - Quote
Hmm - quickly looking at the gamelogs for the last time I used that alt - 3 wrecking shots with geckos for every 1 wrecking shot when using appropriate sized drones (not quite sure what to make of that as there are more variables at play there than I have my head around) but wrecking shots with geckos make up only 5.26% of every hit over the entirety of the hits for geckos.
Still amazed how much hurt a low skilled alt can do with geckos against basic NPCs though heh. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
205
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Posted - 2014.11.13 15:49:04 -
[22] - Quote
Gekos are just a awesome drone. Look at the stats. They are freeking awesome.
We also lost like 6 of them the other day to sleepers. Ops.
I really don't feel gekos are OP, they are already quite expensive and have no option but to get even more expensive. Until the only time you will ever see then is in the Tournaments.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.11.13 22:09:42 -
[23] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Two Geckos shooting a target every 4 seconds for 60 seconds means 480 shots total.
I don't really care about balancing geckos, but I had to step up and point out your terrible maths. 4 second ROF means that each gecko fires 15 times in 60 seconds. Two geckos therefore fire 30 shots per minute, not 480.
LOL, indeed, I multiplied by 4 instead of divided. Thanks. :)
Rather than compound my mistake by attempting to derive the probability of a 1% chance event happening 5 times in 30 tries, I'll simply say that a) I wouldn't be surprised if it's rare but within the realm of probability, b) "a minute" can be much longer than 60 seconds because people don't always estimate time perfectly, and c) it's hard for me to think that CCP uses a unique to-hit formula for Geckos but I guess it's possible - they've certainly mentioned in the past how convoluted their code base is.
Next time I'm using Geckos, I'll take a look at the combat log and calculate how many of their shots were wrecks. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.11.14 23:29:51 -
[24] - Quote
So I looked at all my combat logs. 25824 combat entries involving Geckos. Here are the shot quality amounts:
Wrecks - 268 - 1.04% Misses - 2537 - 9.82% Glances - 2966 - 11.49% Grazes - 3040 - 11.77% Smashes - 4779 - 18.51% Penetrates - 6013 - 23.28% Hits - 6221 - 24.09%
So pretty much as expected, if one looks at a large enough sample set.
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