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Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
143
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Posted - 2014.11.19 11:09:26 -
[151] - Quote
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Assuming perfect. Skills, no drones implants or rigs, 1DC2 and the rest MLU2. 2 minute round trip to station. No boosts. Skiff - 54399m3/hour Mackinaw - 58436m3/hour Hulk - 61558m3/hour. However, if we assume no travel time and perfect boosts (orca in belt tractoring jet cans, freighter hauling.) Skiff - 105182m3/hour Mackinaw - 105182m3/hour Hulk - 137344m3/hour So yeah. The Hulk gets 1.3* more yield but 4* less tank. Is it 4? Or 5? Who cares. Lots less, anyway. Ah, so it's 30% instead of 15%. Like I predicted: does not change my conclusion.
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Jurico Elemenohpe
Laughing Coffin's Surely You're Joking
15
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Posted - 2014.11.19 11:15:10 -
[152] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Yeah, I must be good/bad at choosing systems, because I have yet to see a skiff in my home system that wasn't flown by me. I'll run the yield numbers now, rather than isk/hour (because isk/hour changes) Also, how'd you get a skiff with max tank that doesn't (nearly)cap out on pg? You can relay those sytem names to your local New Order agent and we'll see what we can do about that. [Skiff, SKIFF] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II 148,5K against void. 151 against CNA. At all level five skills no implants needed even. Yes, those are faction modules but at prices around 8 million they are totally viable to put on a 165 million hull, same goes for the T2 rigs. If you have a lvl 5 skilled squad booster EHP goes to 161.5k against void and 164.5 against CNA. Expecting your average hauler support will have at least lvl 3 boosting skills. And that's without any shield bonus that could come from Orca-support. Power grid: only TWENTY used out of 62.5 at all level 5 skills. Again: what does the Skiff NEED all that PG for? In conclusion, anyone dedicated to tanking can quite easily get to 160K+ tanks without making your ship a bling boat while still maintaining Mack level yield and beating the Mack on all other fronts cept for ore bay, which is quite irrelevant in most situations because of hauler support. I just threw this fit together quickly and it's quite possible that it can even be improved slightly without resorting to very expensive exotic deadspace/officer/faction modules. As this fit stands though, I'd say the Skiff is a real Beast. Oh, wow. Much better than mine.. I was using 2*MSE and 3*AIF. 116k omni/119k kintherm. Where do I find my local new order agent? I suppose there's one normally sitting like 7 jumps away in a hub.. |
Jurico Elemenohpe
Laughing Coffin's Surely You're Joking
15
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Posted - 2014.11.19 11:16:32 -
[153] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Assuming perfect. Skills, no drones implants or rigs, 1DC2 and the rest MLU2. 2 minute round trip to station. No boosts. Skiff - 54399m3/hour Mackinaw - 58436m3/hour Hulk - 61558m3/hour. However, if we assume no travel time and perfect boosts (orca in belt tractoring jet cans, freighter hauling.) Skiff - 105182m3/hour Mackinaw - 105182m3/hour Hulk - 137344m3/hour So yeah. The Hulk gets 1.3* more yield but 4* less tank. Is it 4? Or 5? Who cares. Lots less, anyway. Ah, so it's 30% instead of 15%. Like I predicted: does not change my conclusion. Yeah. Skiff is awesome. I'd be fine with a nerf as long as it's not too bad.. |
Thomas Mayaki
Perkone Caldari State
34
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Posted - 2014.11.19 13:31:13 -
[154] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bagatur I wrote: As to the skiff itself, the hull is like 160mil. I am not sure about the fittings, but lets stick to the hull price only.
No, actually, let's not. Price is not a balancing point. And linking to that blog doesn't help your case either. So, I would love to hear you explain why you think pricetag means that you should be immune to the actions of other players who outnumber you so severely. Because that kind of seems unbalanced to me.
Gevlon when he was ganking was incredibly good at what he was doing. The ganking guide itself is good and I've seen elements of it copied without acknowledging the source.
Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
196
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Posted - 2014.11.19 13:50:55 -
[155] - Quote
Thomas Mayaki wrote: Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.
Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ship) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.
I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.
This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec. |
ForTheEmpire2014
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.11.19 15:29:10 -
[156] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.
I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.
This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.
Yes, rebalance the other exhumers, I certainly endorse that idea +1
Empire Space is worth fighting for.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
509
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Posted - 2014.11.19 15:35:20 -
[157] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Thomas Mayaki wrote: Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.
Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden. I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target. This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.
You said it as it is, good post, personally I would suggest that they buff the yield on the Hulk and Mac a bit in comparison, I use a Skiff because tank comes first so don't care, but if CCP want to nerf the yield on the Skiff I will live with that too. But I do not want the tank nerfed, because it has a role in 0.0 and in low sec where its abilities are very much needed and I also like to mine in a ship with a tank because I hate being easy to kill.
Ella's Snack bar
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Thanatos Marathon
Phoibe Enterprises
353
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Posted - 2014.11.19 15:53:47 -
[158] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:La Nariz wrote:Remove auto repeat from mining equipment, remove ewar from concord and increase concord response times for each sec by 10s. All problems solved. Remove auto-repeat from all the things! No more repeating guns/missile launchers, no more repeating hardeners. Man Mode everywhere! Does that mean the person that can click the most buttons has more "skill?" Also ahahahahahahahaha at the rest of the highsec hypocrites pouring into the thread.
Just hull fit it then stick guns and DC for F1 & F2! Then laugh and fly circles around people while they try and activate 6 - 12 modules while trying to pilot.
[SARCASM MODE OFF] |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
144
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Posted - 2014.11.19 16:37:03 -
[159] - Quote
Should the Skiff keep it's quite insane tank (which I am ok with in principle) it should be hit so hard with the nerf bat on it's other traits that it's ***** will be glowing red till X-mass 2015.
I said 2/3 of the mack yield b4, but after my more indepth analysis I think it should be more like 1/3 of the yield of the mack. The mack will at that point have 3 times the yield of a skiff and the Hulk about 4 times. That's much more in line with how the tank on the three exhumers compare.
To please the 'The Skiff was made for null-sec'-crowd (which might have been it's original purpose but is debatable at present): give it a 3X modifier on ores that are only found outside of highsec. That way it retains functionality in 0.0 but loses a big chunk of appeal in high sec.
PS: even if the Skiff should get it's tank halved, it would still be passed over by the vast majority of the ganking crowd. The reality is that you don't need much tank at all to be an unatractive target to gankers. If you can tank 2 catalysts, you're safe from every solo ganker and everyone running dual gank accounts, I'm guessing that's like 95-99% of all gankers. If you doubt my words, go look at the killboards at what kind of mining barges/exhumers get ganked. 90% will be the poorly or non-tanked ones. |
Kathtrine
My Dot Corp
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 16:37:48 -
[160] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Are Skiffs overpowered insofar as given a certain scenario they are too difficult to move on or destroy I (ganker tears here).
Skiffs are working as intended. You cry ganker tears.
Thank you for the QQ
[b]If your griefing about EvE online and still paying for it, your hooked and CCP has done thier job.
Now go blow somebodies ship up and stop whining about whatever your are lacking.[/b]
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
136
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:16:31 -
[161] - Quote
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:Still loving this thread... the nerf-it crowing is simply marvelous.
The Skiff (and the Procurer) are PvP ships, with mining lasers and ore-holds. The sooner you stop thinking of them as gankable meat, the sooner you will actually be able to adequately deal with them. Because they are in the hands of what many of you consider 'care-bears', you feel it necessary to cry about it being OP and want the nerf-hammer. Boohoo.
How would you deal with this ship if you considered it a 'combat ship'? It may have the tank of a battleship, but it has nowhere near the damage potential or force-multiplier effect that an equivalent BS has. Look at the Skiff killboards from the opposite side of things; how many kills does this ship have, and what is it's ratio of kill/loss? You will see a marginally effective PvP ship, which is much better in fleets due to it's drone bonuses.
The only change I could endorse, reasonably, is to reduce the ore hold to 12k (from 15k). That puts it in perfect alignment with the other exhumers, considering the role this ship was intended for.
As others have said you don't actually see many Skiffs in space mining. This is probably partly due to it being quite an expensive ship and also that they do not realise how good/overpowered it is.
Regarding several comments about the size of the ore hold in the Skiff I don't think this is the problem. More often than not the Skiff is used in a fleet with an Orca and/or hauler so changing the ore hold in either direction doesn't matter.
We need to be looking at mining yield and/or the base EHP and/or the drone damage bonuses. Personally, and probably for my own needs, I would like to see the EHP or tanking ability reduced. But the 'sensible' peoples consensus appears to be that a reduction in the mining yield would be better. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
136
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 17:25:23 -
[162] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Should the Skiff keep it's quite insane tank (which I am ok with in principle) it should be hit so hard with the nerf bat on it's other traits that it's ***** will be glowing red till X-mass 2015.
I said 2/3 of the mack yield b4, but after my more indepth analysis I think it should be more like 1/3 of the yield of the mack. The mack will at that point have 3 times the yield of a skiff and the Hulk about 4 times. That's much more in line with how the tank on the three exhumers compare.
To please the 'The Skiff was made for null-sec'-crowd (which might have been it's original purpose but is debatable at present): give it a 3X modifier on ores that are only found outside of highsec. That way it retains functionality in 0.0 but loses a big chunk of appeal in high sec.
PS: even if the Skiff should get it's tank halved, it would still be passed over by the vast majority of the ganking crowd. The reality is that you don't need much tank at all to be an unatractive target to gankers. If you can tank 2 catalysts, you're safe from every solo ganker and everyone running dual gank accounts, I'm guessing that's like 95-99% of all gankers. If you doubt my words, go look at the killboards at what kind of mining barges/exhumers get ganked. 90% will be the poorly or non-tanked ones.
I think I like this idea and will use it as a basis for my proposal on the F&I board. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
136
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 17:28:40 -
[163] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Thomas Mayaki wrote: Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.
Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden. I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target. This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.
Most suicide ganks of mining vessels do not have a profit motive. They are usually about collecting 'QQ', roleplay, business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability. |
Paranoid Loyd
2674
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 17:42:34 -
[164] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote: business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability. These reasons are profit motive.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
136
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:52:54 -
[165] - Quote
Bagatur I wrote:Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Is it really? I still don't see many Skiffs. I don't go looking for them though.. Today I've seen 1 hulk (with an orca in belt), 1 covetor, 1 procurer and a mackinaw. The OP just wants to see a miner, any miner, and be able to gank him easily. I dont see that many skiffs either. In the system where I mine, which is 0.5 and ganks happen almost every day, I see more macks and hulks than skiffs. Do some flying around and pick easier targets ffs As to the skiff itself, the hull is like 160mil. I am not sure about the fittings, but lets stick to the hull price only. A 673 DPS catalyst is 9-10mil (taken from here http://greedygoblin.blogspot.de/2013/08/catalyst-ganking-guide.html). So a skiff hull costs as much as 16 gank fitted catalysts. Taking 20 second CONCORD response time, 16 catalysts can deal 16*673*20 which is about 215k damage. That is WAY more than skiff's EHP. So even now the gankers' lose less than the victim. Working as intended IMO. The gankers win! And dont whine about not recovering the costs of the gank. You want to lose nothing while the other player loses around 200mil? Get real.
I don't want to move away from my OP's subject but I am always EXTREMELY specific about who I attack(Except for the MTU I was tricked into attacking the other day. ) and I only work in one system. I don't attack single or smaller mining operations and I would never attack a Venture as that would be really sad. I stop clearance of whole belts so smaller miners can mine. The miners contract me to remove these large, and often 'afk' or ISBoxer run, mining fleets. I don't expect to make a profit from any ganks I do although I will attempt to recover ship fttings and loot with my associates 'in crime'.
I still stand by my statement that use of Skiffs for mining in conjunction with membership of an NPC corp literally covers all the bases so attacking them is very problematic. Actually I would say the current Skiff statistics rival the pre-first rebalancing of the mining vessels making the current Skiff the 'best ship' to mine in . As we all know CCP wants roles in all ship classes and no 'best' ships therefore the statistics of the Skiff have to be revised !! |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:58:56 -
[166] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote:I think I like this idea and will use it as a basis for my proposal on the F&I board.
Go right ahead :P
In essence I think CCP made a big mistake by removing the specialized roles of barges and xumers. Or at the very least they did a crappy job at making the choice between the new line a bit more interesting.
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
136
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:02:21 -
[167] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Bethan Le Troix wrote: business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability. These reasons are profit motive.
I wasn't succinct in how I worded my reply. I meant lack of profit in terms of the actual physical act & immediate result of the suicide gank. If someone wishes to then afterwards keep their sec status to between 0 and -5.00 then ratting time or purchase of expensive tags is required which pushes the economic element further into the 'red'.
Of course if ganking is done so more mining ships are built and purchased then profits will be made by manufacturers & sellers. Likewise where I operate in terms of resource protection & sustainability there will rocks available to be mined by smaller mining operations or single miners and they will make ISK by selling what they mine or selling what they make from the minerals. |
Lee Nolan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:08:28 -
[168] - Quote
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.
And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:14:07 -
[169] - Quote
Lee Nolan wrote:The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You seem to be agreeing that it might be a bit too much in one little package |
Lee Nolan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:48:29 -
[170] - Quote
There are lots of ships that are well suited to the role they are meant for. There are a few that are not (I am looking at you, Rorqual). The Skiff does what it's designed to do and does it well. Whether it's balanced versus other ships is a separate matter.
And generally, I am not in favor of nerfing ships because they are better. I would seek to improve the ships that need them rather than nerf the ones that need none. A good example would be when they balanced T1 frigates. Most of them sucked except for the Rifter. The answer wasn't nerf the Rifter until it was as terrible as the others. The right choice was to improve the other frigates until they were more or less in line with the Rifter. |
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
153
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:09:22 -
[171] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:La Nariz wrote:Mack needs a tank nerf and skiff needs a yield nerf. If the Skiff needs anything, it needs a capacity nerf not a yield nerf. Having the same yield as a Mack is fine, but being able to go twice as long without offloading as a Hulk seems a bit out of place.
As I have said before capacity is a poor balancing point. It is either very important(solo mining) or negligible(hauler alt). No in between. Nerfing capacity has no impact on the skiff being absurdly good for high sec fleet mining. |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
153
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:13:03 -
[172] - Quote
Lee Nolan wrote:The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.
And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.
It's a big more complex than that. If skiffs had half the yield of a Mackinaw, I would be fine with skiffs being able to ignore other players. There is a strong trade off for being able to do so. There is no trade off right now. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
510
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:58:50 -
[173] - Quote
Lee Nolan wrote:The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.
And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.
That is a very good post and spot on.
Ella's Snack bar
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
510
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:02:51 -
[174] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote:Lee Nolan wrote:The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.
And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank. It's a big more complex than that. If skiffs had half the yield of a Mackinaw, I would be fine with skiffs being able to ignore other players. There is a strong trade off for being able to do so. There is no trade off right now.
If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically. The yield and cargo capacity are advantages, but with the level of ganking and harassment it makes no sense to take the small gain, which is why I suggest that the Hulk and Mackinaw get a buff to their mining yield.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10668
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:05:38 -
[175] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.
If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
510
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:38:44 -
[176] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.
If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.
If you say so...
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10671
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:41:44 -
[177] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.
If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically. If you say so...
That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
510
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:42:22 -
[178] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.
If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically. If you say so... That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.
Whatever pulls your chain
Ella's Snack bar
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ForTheEmpire2014
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:00:48 -
[179] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.
If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically. If you say so... That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.
Yes, you can always log off and go do something else.
Otherwise, there is no 100% in a game where even a titan can be killed by a pos.
You are being overly simplistic. Or trolling. Or both.
Empire Space is worth fighting for.
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
69
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Posted - 2014.11.20 02:16:53 -
[180] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Thomas Mayaki wrote: Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.
Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden. I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target. This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec. Keep in mind many Skiff pilots do not fit the Damage Control to their ships and many failfit it altogether regarding mids/rigs. A well fit Skiff without the DC would have about 58xx EHP while the typical fit has something more like 50xx. They aren't too hard to gank with a handful of buddies in fleet. Not profitable but can be done (easily) with positive KB efficiency.
https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25816660
I would say the main reason we don't see more Skiff ganks is because there are still enough idiots in anti-tanked Hulks and Mackinaws floating around.
Tear Jar wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:La Nariz wrote:Mack needs a tank nerf and skiff needs a yield nerf. If the Skiff needs anything, it needs a capacity nerf not a yield nerf. Having the same yield as a Mack is fine, but being able to go twice as long without offloading as a Hulk seems a bit out of place. As I have said before capacity is a poor balancing point. It is either very important(solo mining) or negligible(hauler alt). No in between. Nerfing capacity has no impact on the skiff being absurdly good for high sec fleet mining. The Skiff pilot is AFK so it does have some effect. Skiff should lose a bit of both yield and cargo.
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