Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.19 10:30:21 -
[1] - Quote
When you use the term Physically Based Rendering, aka PBR, what exactly are your lighting models based on? Monte Carlo? Raytracing? The term is vague and I'm not sure how it fits within the framework of eve?
I know there are game engines that support raytracing but what exactly is PBR in eve online based on? Are you actually calculating lighting bouncing and scattering or cheating the effect? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6971
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Posted - 2014.11.19 10:41:51 -
[2] - Quote
Raytracers make potatoes cry.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.19 10:44:36 -
[3] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Raytracers make potatoes cry.
you need to upgrade your potato. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6971
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Posted - 2014.11.19 10:55:43 -
[4] - Quote
Cyndrogen wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Raytracers make potatoes cry. you need to upgrade your potato. Leave my potato out of this!
My tower can handle them fine but my laptop potato nearly melted when I left it to render video using them.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.19 10:56:45 -
[5] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Cyndrogen wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Raytracers make potatoes cry. you need to upgrade your potato. Leave my potato out of this! My tower can handle them fine but my laptop potato nearly melted when I left it to render video using them.
Stream..... let it stream. |
Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:36:32 -
[6] - Quote
http://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/pbr-practice
This explains the matter really well and answers all questions asked. It's NOT raytracing! |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17776
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:04:27 -
[7] - Quote
I remember when Goldfinger tried to trace James Bond with a death ray.
Or was it a laser?
Was that even Goldfinger?!??!
Pretty sure it was Goldfinger...
Anyway it didn't work.
I think.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Erin Crawford
347
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Posted - 2014.11.19 18:25:40 -
[8] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I remember when Goldfinger tried to trace James Bond with a death ray.
Or was it a laser?
Was that even Goldfinger?!??!
Pretty sure it was Goldfinger...
Anyway it didn't work.
I think.
...most definitely Amarr!
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2975
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:17:07 -
[9] - Quote
imagine you have a classic per pixel light shader but you have the ability to set angle dependent material properties. Thats 90% of PBR. The term BPR itself is very loosely defined (its like web2.0 of computer graphics). If you want to read the full details look up the 2010 SIGGRAPH paper.
eve style bounties (done)
dust boarding parties
imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW
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Serene Repose
1632
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:24:47 -
[10] - Quote
PBR = Pabst Blue Ribbon - Let's not get out of hand here.
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
407
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:50:11 -
[11] - Quote
Cyndrogen wrote:When you use the term Physically Based Rendering, aka PBR, what exactly are your lighting models based on? Monte Carlo? Raytracing? The term is vague and I'm not sure how it fits within the framework of eve?
I know there are game engines that support raytracing but what exactly is PBR in eve online based on? Are you actually calculating lighting bouncing and scattering or cheating the effect?
Coming from a visual effects and animation background, having recently worked as a digital lighting technical director, I had, like you, presumed that physically-based rendering (PBR) systems generally required raytracing. I was wrong.
The important components of a PBR system are:
- Linear high-dynamic-range lighting, which we rolled out as part of an earlier release
- energy conservation as an upper limit for scattered light energy from a differential area on the surface
- an angular distribution function that determines how incoming light scatters off the surface at different angles (in our case a Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution Function, or BRDF, though there are also Scattering and Transmissive distribution functions as well)
- and for a non-raytraced system, an illumination map, for which we use our cube-mapped nebulas.
What we do not have that you might have seen from raytraced PBR implementations:
- Any form of "global illumination," meaning light bouncing off one surface to illuminate another.
- Raytraced shadows. (I'm pretty sure we're using depth map shadows.)
- Any form of ray-marching volumetric techniques, such as you might use for caustics originating from transparent materials.
EVE's implementation is an in-house one, and primarily implemented by the shader. Visually, the results are much like those of a raytraced system, but with shadow blur and bounces at zero.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Kaaeliaa
The Vendunari End of Life
32348
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:50:27 -
[12] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:PBR = Pabst Blue Ribbon - Let's not get out of hand here.
That's what I keep thinking.
Next thought is, "Ew."
LAGL Cosplayer. Princess of Sibyyl's Pillowfort. Khanid Zealot Rage Queen.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17787
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:17:04 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Good Info.
Some good stuff there.. but it still doesn't answer whether or not it was Goldfinger with the laser thing.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
805
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:29:47 -
[14] - Quote
Having the sun be required to be in camera to see its effects on the ship and curreently no change on effect with changes of range from the sun could work better.
If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
408
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:29:58 -
[15] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Some good stuff there.. but it still doesn't answer whether or not it was Goldfinger with the laser thing.
"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"
Yes, that was Goldfinger.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17787
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:52:57 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Some good stuff there.. but it still doesn't answer whether or not it was Goldfinger with the laser thing. "Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!" Yes, that was Goldfinger.
You just moved up the list of 'Devs of UaE's heart' if you didn't have to google that...
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
414
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:08:02 -
[17] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:You just moved up the list of 'Devs of UaE's heart' if you didn't have to google that...
Didn't.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
45
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:15:16 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:You just moved up the list of 'Devs of UaE's heart' if you didn't have to google that... Didn't.
Showing your age me thinks!
I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17791
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:51:44 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:You just moved up the list of 'Devs of UaE's heart' if you didn't have to google that... Didn't.
Bonus points for sending me todays browsing history as proof...
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Hal Morsh
Exodus Mining Corp
193
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:03:02 -
[20] - Quote
What is raytracing?
Is it that effect where you can see objects cast shadows whilst looking at the sun? The incursion ambiance already does this, on your ship and objects in space.
I enjoy a good session of mining.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
420
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:14:20 -
[21] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:What is raytracing?
Raytracing is a technique for rendering images that traces large numbers of the paths that light takes through the scene. It's very accurate but very time consuming. Other rendering techniques simplify the problem by using various approximations that are less accurate but produce a look that's acceptable.
Here's a lot more information on the topic than I can offer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_(graphics)
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6981
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:21:20 -
[22] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:What is raytracing?
Is it that effect where you can see objects cast shadows in space whilst looking at the sun? The incursion ambiance already does this, on your ship and objects in space. *drunkenly reminisces about collage tutor pulling his hair out*
It's essentially asking your potato to trace individual rays of light from the source(s) in all directions at all times and registering the individual opacity value of everything each ray interacts with and generating shadows that way.
It's really intense for what it does and is one (amongst many) reason render farms are a thing in animation studios though I'm painfully uninformed (and drunk) about how thaw games industry handles that sort of thing.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25241
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:48:02 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:
energy conservation as an upper limit for scattered light energy from a differential area on the surface translation: an object will not glow brighter than light that is shed on it.
overall PBR is a concept that entails texturing things according to the surface material, true-to-life rather than an imaginary way for the sake of looking cool in a specific setting.
is this correct
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Darth Schweinebacke
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:04:03 -
[24] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
If I remember correctly it can change a 12 minute render into a 12 hour one(for video).
Try 24 hours for a single image! Grrrrrrrr.. someone buy me a renderfarm for x-mas pls! |
Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:05:39 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Cyndrogen wrote:When you use the term Physically Based Rendering, aka PBR, what exactly are your lighting models based on? Monte Carlo? Raytracing? The term is vague and I'm not sure how it fits within the framework of eve?
I know there are game engines that support raytracing but what exactly is PBR in eve online based on? Are you actually calculating lighting bouncing and scattering or cheating the effect? Coming from a visual effects and animation background, having recently worked as a digital lighting technical director, I had, like you, presumed that physically-based rendering (PBR) systems generally required raytracing. I was wrong. The important components of a PBR system are:- Linear high-dynamic-range lighting, which we rolled out as part of an earlier release
- energy conservation as an upper limit for scattered light energy from a differential area on the surface
- an angular distribution function that determines how incoming light scatters off the surface at different angles (in our case a Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution Function, or BRDF, though there are also Scattering and Transmissive distribution functions as well)
- and for a non-raytraced system, an illumination map, for which we use our cube-mapped nebulas.
What we do not have that you might have seen from raytraced PBR implementations:- Any form of "global illumination," meaning light bouncing off one surface to illuminate another. (This includes raytraced reflections of other objects in the scene other than the illumination map, since in a PBR system, "diffuse bounce" is just a reflection with a broader BRDF.)
- Raytraced shadows. (I'm pretty sure we're using depth map shadows.)
- Any form of ray-marching volumetric techniques, such as you might use for caustics originating from transparent materials.
EVE's implementation is an in-house one, and primarily implemented by the shader. Visually, the results are much like those of a raytraced system, but with shadow blur and bounces at zero.
Great! Thanks for clarifying the difference! PBR is pretty much the future in visual effects and older scanline / depth mapped / caching methods are going the way of the dodo. I have used Arnold which is an unbiased PBR raytracer, and ofcourse the older Mental Ray which is biased but supports caustics thanks to photon mapping.
Are there any plans to implement bounce light? I thought that walking in stations demo actually had this technique implemented? Or maybe it was just a tech demo?
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Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:08:02 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Cyndrogen wrote:When you use the term Physically Based Rendering, aka PBR, what exactly are your lighting models based on? Monte Carlo? Raytracing? The term is vague and I'm not sure how it fits within the framework of eve?
I know there are game engines that support raytracing but what exactly is PBR in eve online based on? Are you actually calculating lighting bouncing and scattering or cheating the effect? Coming from a visual effects and animation background, having recently worked as a digital lighting technical director, I had, like you, presumed that physically-based rendering (PBR) systems generally required raytracing. I was wrong. The important components of a PBR system are:- Linear high-dynamic-range lighting, which we rolled out as part of an earlier release
- energy conservation as an upper limit for scattered light energy from a differential area on the surface
- an angular distribution function that determines how incoming light scatters off the surface at different angles (in our case a Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution Function, or BRDF, though there are also Scattering and Transmissive distribution functions as well)
- and for a non-raytraced system, an illumination map, for which we use our cube-mapped nebulas.
What we do not have that you might have seen from raytraced PBR implementations:- Any form of "global illumination," meaning light bouncing off one surface to illuminate another. (This includes raytraced reflections of other objects in the scene other than the illumination map, since in a PBR system, "diffuse bounce" is just a reflection with a broader BRDF.)
- Raytraced shadows. (I'm pretty sure we're using depth map shadows.)
- Any form of ray-marching volumetric techniques, such as you might use for caustics originating from transparent materials.
EVE's implementation is an in-house one, and primarily implemented by the shader. Visually, the results are much like those of a raytraced system, but with shadow blur and bounces at zero.
Another question is are your textures also stored in linear space? 8 bit? 16?
I assume that bump and specular maps are stored as 8bit but what about the diffuse maps? Are Normal maps in eve 16 or 32 bit?
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Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:25:40 -
[27] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Hal Morsh wrote:What is raytracing?
Is it that effect where you can see objects cast shadows in space whilst looking at the sun? The incursion ambiance already does this, on your ship and objects in space. *drunkenly reminisces about collage tutor pulling his hair out* It's essentially asking your potato to trace individual rays of light from the source(s) in all directions at all times and registering the individual opacity value of everything each ray interacts with and generating shadows that way. It's really intense for what it does and is one (amongst many) reason render farms are a thing in animation studios though I'm painfully uninformed (and drunk) about how thaw games industry handles that sort of thing. Edit: Yeay!!!! I remembered stuff! If I remember correctly it can change a 12 minute render into a 12 hour one(for video).
It calculates many different rays and how rays interact with materials and lights. With raytracing it's possible to render not just shadow rays but refraction, reflection, bounce, etc. One implementation of raytracing is the brute force monte carlo method, which basically is like a gun that just fires random shots into the projection plane / camera plane and "samples" the environment.
This method is great for outdoor scenes however when you deal with interior lighting monte carlo can be very noisy and time consuming to raytrace. Metropolis light transport is a more efficient way to solve the problem of light traveling through a keyhole in a room and scattering around. Light coming through a keyhole is very difficult to trace with monte carlo raytracing with acceptable render quality. This is why render engines like V Ray cheat by giving the user a "light portal", where the artist can specify the direction of light and force the render engine to sample using light portals as guides. |
Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:37:11 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:
an angular distribution function that determines how incoming light scatters off the surface at different angles (in our case a Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution Function, or BRDF, though there are also Scattering and Transmissive distribution functions as well) .
Are you also calculating Fresnel as part of the BRDF?
I would imagine, specifically for metals that Fresnel would be required to get the right look for reflection / diffuse ratios. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
446
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Posted - 2014.11.21 06:25:14 -
[29] - Quote
Cyndrogen wrote:Are you also calculating Fresnel as part of the BRDF?
I would imagine, specifically for metals that Fresnel would be required to get the right look for reflection / diffuse ratios.
There are Fresnel parameters. I haven't looked closely to see how the implementation handles them, but I'd assume they're rolled into the BRDF.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5681
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Posted - 2014.11.21 08:10:06 -
[30] - Quote
I like this thread. I read it and thought in a parallel universe the other Herzog is a graphics programmer who is happy most of the time and even enjoys getting laid too.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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