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Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
279
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:09:22 -
[1] - Quote
So I was. as usual surfing through dotlan looking for something to take my mind off the tedium that is my job, and I happened upon the Wars page, which I hadn't seen before. I was clicking around through there, and an immediate disparity caught my eye.
Out of the total number of active wars, the number that result in at least one loss mail is less than 5%.
According to Dotlan, there are currently 7,493 active wardecs in New Eden right now. 354 of them have resulted in someone losing something - that's 4.7 odd percent.
To put it another way, it cost 374,650,000,000 (assuming all wars used the minimum cost - the actual figure is going to be higher) ISK to start all of those wars. 357 billion of that ISK may as well have been flushed down the toilet.
This is not to call on CCP to end wardecs. This is a call to CCP to make wardecs actually useful for something besides being an enormous ISK sink for people with too much time and money on their hands. You have established a working group to take a long hard look at nullsec, and the fruits of that labor are now being realized. The time has come for you to do the same for highsec war declarations - make them a tool that's actually worth using for something besides lolz and farming kills.
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
291
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:19:18 -
[2] - Quote
If only 4.7% result in a killmail I'm not sure how you equate that to "farming kills". Seems a pretty good isk sink tbh. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17781
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:22:40 -
[3] - Quote
Only 4.7% lose a ship during a wardec.
I am the 4.7%.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1727
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:23:29 -
[4] - Quote
I think its mostly because theres not much of value to fight for in highsec, and an eaqual amount of players who dont want to deal with wardecs. |
Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
279
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:23:48 -
[5] - Quote
voetius wrote: If only 4.7% result in a killmail I'm not sure how you equate that to "farming kills". Seems a pretty good isk sink tbh.
I was discussing the reasons for starting a war in the first place, not necessarily the results of one.
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
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Serene Repose
1632
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:26:08 -
[6] - Quote
Look on the bright side. It's great for inflation control
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
153
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:27:45 -
[7] - Quote
There is another reason. Focusing many idiots with too much pride to npc corp to dock up/not play for a week. |
Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
279
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:27:55 -
[8] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Look on the bright side. It's great for inflation control
True - assuming the rate of wars remains more or less constant on average, you're shovelling close to 20 trillion ISK out of the economy per year.
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1820
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:29:48 -
[9] - Quote
A new war gets generated whenever a corp leaves an alliance that's at war. In my experience the wars that result from that are the main source of war reports with zero kills. The kills that happened happened as part of the war with the alliance and the corp dropped out as a result and doesn't log in again until the war is over. It also tends to happen En masse as alliances fail cascade. A single wardec against an alliance can result in a dozen war reports with zero kills because of this. |
Yourmoney Mywallet
Jita Institute of Applied Monetary Manipulation
175
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:58:04 -
[10] - Quote
Am I the only one who want to see the killmail with the OP's main on it? |
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
823
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:02:39 -
[11] - Quote
RvB... proud to be part of the 4.7%! Maybe everyone should have a teapot to fight over. |
Ama Scelesta
110
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:21:55 -
[12] - Quote
It's not exactly the only conclusion even if we ignore the possibility of inflation in the numbers caused by inherited or evaded wars. From the deccers perspective it could also point to the fact, that getting kills isn't the main point of many wardecs. The threat of violence and introducing the presence of risk can be just as effective as actual violence in reaching your goals. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
157
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:23:21 -
[13] - Quote
a lot of wars made are either against 1 carebear corps in hopes of easy kills 2 null alliance corps in hoping when they do come to empire you can kill them 3 wars made against incursion corps to keep someone from running
others as far as empire go are against things like towers and orbital offices
then you have rvb, the people that hate code and some other people.
i cant think of any other reasons.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
1238
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Posted - 2014.11.19 21:52:29 -
[14] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Only 4.7% lose a ship during a wardec.
I am the 4.7%.
I can understand that being Unsuccessful at Everything includes being Unsuccessful at Wardecs.
But I would think you'd have to be some sort of masochist to wardec a corp called "The Troll Bridge".
Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2539
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:47:35 -
[15] - Quote
The core concept underlying war decs is a bit ... problematic.
It would be trivial to make war decs impossible to dodge, but then you know some group of asshats is gonna war dec a bunch of month old players (who would be too poor to hire half decent mercs and too inexperienced to defend themselves) and farm them until they quit and then move on to the next group of woeful poor incompetents.
You could say "HTFU" to the woeful poor incompetents, but we all know ccp wants to keep their sub money.
Or you have the current situation where the vast majority of those that die to war decs are the ones dumb enough to go to a particular market hub in a slow ship, and war decs are otherwise impotent. Meh. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10672
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Posted - 2014.11.19 23:59:28 -
[16] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:The core concept underlying war decs is a bit ... problematic.
It would be trivial to make war decs impossible to dodge, but then you know some group of asshats is gonna war dec a bunch of month old players (who would be too poor to hire half decent mercs and too inexperienced to defend themselves) and farm them until they quit and then move on to the next group of woeful poor incompetents.
You could say "HTFU" to the woeful poor incompetents, but we all know ccp wants to keep their sub money.
Or you have the current situation where the vast majority of those that die to war decs are the ones dumb enough to go to a particular market hub in a slow ship.
And you think none of our more upstanding citizens would flock to defend this theoretical mob of month old players?
Heck, besides some Brave Newbies or EVE Uni groups, I can't actually think of a time when I've seen a bunch of new players in a gaggle together to be shot at.
I would see this as an opportunity to get new players into the hands of the right people, and to crush the toxic "new player friendly" tax farm corps that are poisoning new players right now.
Large scale conflict gives you a chance to pick a side, kick some ass, and most importantly get involved with something. And the alternative is the status quo, making it easier to mine 23/7 with no player interaction? Pff. Fairly apparent to me which one is more captivating.
The strength of this game is not it's "you can't touch me" gameplay. It's not it's PvE content.
It's player interaction.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2539
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:21:03 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And the alternative is the status quo, making it easier to mine 23/7 with no player interaction? Pff. Fairly apparent to me which one is more captivating.
As opposed to what, exactly? Making it easier to camp Jita 4-4 for war targets?
I don't particularly disagree with the whole "player interraction" bit, but let's not eulogize what the vast majority of actual war deccers do.
Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against hisec war dec corps. I think it's just as much a valid play style as hisec mining. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10672
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:28:59 -
[18] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And the alternative is the status quo, making it easier to mine 23/7 with no player interaction? Pff. Fairly apparent to me which one is more captivating.
As opposed to what, exactly? Making it easier to camp Jita 4-4 for war targets? I don't particularly disagree with the whole "player interraction" bit, but let's not eulogize what the vast majority of actual war deccers do.
And why do you think that is? I'll give you a hint, it's due to a huge failure in the mechanics to actually force a fight.
People camp trade hubs because that's how you can actually get kills, thanks to being high traffic areas. Actually hunting targets is made pointless when they can just dodge the dec for a pittance.
It's exactly like how people cry about suicide gankers using min/maxxed ships. Well, pro carebear mechanics have forced them to do that to sustain their playstyle's existence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
2185
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:38:08 -
[19] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And the alternative is the status quo, making it easier to mine 23/7 with no player interaction? Pff. Fairly apparent to me which one is more captivating.
As opposed to what, exactly? Making it easier to camp Jita 4-4 for war targets? I don't particularly disagree with the whole "player interraction" bit, but let's not eulogize what the vast majority of actual war deccers do. And why do you think that is? I'll give you a hint, it's due to a huge failure in the mechanics to actually force a fight. People camp trade hubs because that's how you can actually get kills, thanks to being high traffic areas. Actually hunting targets is made pointless when they can just dodge the dec for a pittance. It's exactly like how people cry about suicide gankers using min/maxxed ships. Well, pro carebear mechanics have forced them to do that to sustain their playstyle's existence.
Then they just cry to CCP to nerf ALL combat ships. Ugh.....
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
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Angeal MacNova
The Scope Gallente Federation
248
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:40:32 -
[20] - Quote
You incorrectly assume that just because nothing was destroyed, no purpose was served. This is the common mistake about wars. Too many people think that the purpose of them is to destroy stuff when really, destroying stuff is just a means to an end. If miner corp A hires mercs to wardec miner corp B causing miner corp B to pack up and move elsewhere, then the war served it's purpose. No need for anything to blow up. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10672
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:41:07 -
[21] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote: Then they just cry to CCP to nerf ALL combat ships. Ugh.....
Of course they do.
In their minds, the ability to shoot other people in ANY WAY is the problem. Everything they ask for is just one further step to accomplishing their goal.
Trammel.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2539
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:42:42 -
[22] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: People camp trade hubs because that's how you can actually get kills, thanks to being high traffic areas. Actually hunting targets is made pointless when they can just dodge the dec for a pittance.
Does not compute. Either the "target" dodges the dec, in which case they can't be harmed in a hub in the first place, or they don't dodge the dec, in which case they can be hunted. But hunting takes ~effort~, so they camp a hub instead and catch easy targets.
Which is fine, perfectly valid play style and all that, just like hisec mining. The miner farms ore, the war deccer farms easy killmails, a point that seems well understood:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: People camp trade hubs because that's how you can actually get kills
Good stuff, but let's not eulogize the war deccers as "crushing toxic corps", "fighting the evil tax farms", and preventing the "poisoning of new players."
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10672
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:45:41 -
[23] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Good stuff, but let's not eulogize the war deccers as "crushing toxic corps", "fighting the evil tax farms", and preventing the "poisoning of new players."
Why not? That's what I've always used it for. Awoxing too, to crush these vile people who try to get new players to mine for two months before they train any useful skills. The people who tell new players nothing except "you can't." The less of these people around to corrupt newbies, the better.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2539
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:48:52 -
[24] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Good stuff, but let's not eulogize the war deccers as "crushing toxic corps", "fighting the evil tax farms", and preventing the "poisoning of new players." Why not? That's what I've always used it for. Awoxing too, to crush these vile people who try to get new players to mine for two months before they train any useful skills. The people who tell new players nothing except "you can't." The less of these people around to corrupt newbies, the better. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I doubt even you would claim that the most prolific use of the war dec is out of some notion of benevolence towards new players (as opposed to just farming killmails). |
Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10672
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:54:15 -
[25] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I doubt even you would claim that the most prolific use of the war dec is out of some notion of benevolence towards new players (as opposed to just farming killmails).
Of course they aren't.
Because thanks to dec dodging, the capacity for it is almost entirely lacking.
That's what I'm trying to tell you. With the way it currently works, "cheap kills" as you put it, is mostly what is available from the mechanic. Killing people who don't avoid it.
But if it can't be avoided... people have to band together, learn to actually play the damned game, and the potential for actual meaningful conflict opens up. Right now there is no meaningful conflict because the mechanic is handcuffed solely for the benefit of the antisocial rejects who insist on playing an MMO like a single player game.
And of note? The previously mentioned antisocial playstyles are ones that invariably result in people quitting the game, by CCP's own admitted numbers. We don't need to be enabling the kind of gameplay that kills subscriptions with boredom.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
806
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:29:01 -
[26] - Quote
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote: This is a call to CCP to make wardecs actually useful for something besides being an enormous ISK sink for people with too much time and money on their hands.
The real question is: Why would you want to remove an ISK sink that affects people with too much time and money
o.0
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2539
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:31:29 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: But if it can't be avoided... people have to band together, learn to actually play the damned game, and the potential for actual meaningful conflict opens up. Right now there is no meaningful conflict because the mechanic is handcuffed solely for the benefit of the antisocial rejects who insist on playing an MMO like a single player game.
Everything you described exists in lowsec, nullsec, and wormholes. I don't see the need to alienate the bears that (in part) pay for the further development of eve. Suicide ganking prevents hisec from being a pve only environment and will always prevent that. Wardecs likewise provide another, albeit limited avenue. Buffing wardecs to the point where they're unavoidable for hisec dudes seems to simply be unnecessary.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And of note? The previously mentioned antisocial playstyles are ones that invariably result in people quitting the game, by CCP's own admitted numbers. We don't need to be enabling the kind of gameplay that kills subscriptions with boredom.
Or we could just make that type of gameplay less boring....there's an entire gaming industry that seems to do it alright. Less boring pve and a decent sandbox are not mutually exclusive. |
Alejandro Rebenga
11
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:32:29 -
[28] - Quote
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:So I was. as usual surfing through dotlan looking for something to take my mind off the tedium that is my job, and I happened upon the Wars page, which I hadn't seen before. I was clicking around through there, and an immediate disparity caught my eye.
Out of the total number of active wars, the number that result in at least one loss mail is less than 5%.
According to Dotlan, there are currently 7,493 active wardecs in New Eden right now. 354 of them have resulted in someone losing something - that's 4.7 odd percent.
To put it another way, it cost 374,650,000,000 (assuming all wars used the minimum cost - the actual figure is going to be higher) ISK to start all of those wars. 357 billion of that ISK may as well have been flushed down the toilet.
This is not to call on CCP to end wardecs. This is a call to CCP to make wardecs actually useful for something besides being an enormous ISK sink for people with too much time and money on their hands. You have established a working group to take a long hard look at nullsec, and the fruits of that labor are now being realized. The time has come for you to do the same for highsec war declarations - make them a tool that's actually worth using for something besides lolz and farming kills.
Lemme introduce another thread of thought: Wardeccers have THAT much isk to throw away, cause its THAT easy to cough up the minimum. All for the possibility that on a weekend, they will catch the wartarget flying a loaded ship.
Remember that time CCP raffled off Geckos sometime last year? Where miners, manufacturers, ratters and pvpers were given 'goals'?
*short googels* Ah! This one, EVE 11 Celebration (BTW Mister CCP Webmaster part of the page is hidden at the bottom part...)
Seven point fourty four Trillion for ratters. Then we have your figure of three five seven Billion, hmm whats that five percent-ish? O wait ratters managed to reach 7.78 Trillion actually, so thats (maths dont fail me now) ~4.8%? Wardeccers that regularly rat/kill npcs sure have it easy huh? (with his hisec npc alts?)
Some of the ideas in teh other threads is to make it harder, for both parties, to deal with wardecs (shorter periods/costly declaration, wardec follows each character, etc.). Anyway, its because of us, the players having too much ISK, that we have players paying CONCORD their weekly ganking permit that number in the Billions. And its not their fault, they have so much surplus money lying around, and here is a mechanic that enables them to have hisec content!
One way to (smugly) frame that 4.7% is that out of the 7,493 parties that were involved, the other 95.3% had enough sense to avoid losing his ship for a week. We have a smart and intelligent playerbase that, yadayada canned-response et al 4.7%-gb2WoW. So once again, its us, the players.
I say it works. |
Haedonism Bot
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
1563
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Posted - 2014.11.20 02:05:51 -
[29] - Quote
Agondray wrote: then you have rvb, the people that hate code and some other people.
Where are these "people who hate CODE", and why aren't they wardeccing us?
Wardecs are fine. It would be nice if they would reduce the fees and make evasion carry harsher consequences, but the mechanic itself is essentially sound. Most of those 0 isk wars are just aggressors who are too lazy to hunt their targets. If they want to throw their isk away like that, though, I don't see how that is a problem.
CODE. is recruiting highsec PvPers for wardecs
www.everevolutioanryfront.blogspot.com
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
287
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Posted - 2014.11.20 02:06:22 -
[30] - Quote
Wars are pretty pointless these days. The only real use is for Marmite to dec 150 groups at once and farm easy gatecamp kills. The rest of the wars are usually met by docking up and playing on alts, rolling corp, or just ignoring entirely. The mechanic is fundamentally broken because there is no way for the defender to force a resolution to the conflict. When someone forms up to take on Marmite, the Marmite folks just dock up and play on alts, with no real consequences. |
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