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TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
22
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:14:51 -
[31] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:bro. I've never seen a worse case of grr goons. either that or you're always confrontational. or you're just special.
the reduced heat mode is meant for exactly the way you describe, where normal heat for one more cycle would burn out the module. the same thing is already happening on the first heat cycle, where using heat just one time will not add damage.
the alpha strike burnout option is valid too. in fact, current heat and my two suggestions can work together, like:
normal heat cycle normal heat cycle normal heat cycle normal heat cycle normal heat cycle normal heat cycle reduced heat cycle reduced heat cycle reduced heat cycle reduced heat cycle alpha strike
one way the reduced heat cycle should behave is a steady heat level that neither increases or demishes
now it's your turn to think of something creative regarding heat
like the idea |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
22
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:18:03 -
[32] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Honestly, I would be agreeing with the people saying that the point of overheating is to have to be careful not to break your module... BUT, right now, the overheating UI and mecanic is too lame and too unintuitive for that.
Think about it, even though we have the code in place to show precisely how much heat is repaired with nanites in-flight, when you exit repair mode, you still only see a damage indicated divided in 6... and that's all. No precision at all. The module could be damaged at 99 or 86%, it doesn't tell you. You need to mouseover to see it... That's stupid.
Dangerous game mecanics should be dangerous because of a player's mistake, not because you have to fight the UI. So yeah, if I break my guns, part of the problem will be me... But a larger part will be because the UI required me to mouseover constantly over the weapons icon, to see the heat damage with a 1% precision.
Also, seeing the heat damage increase over time, each second during the module cycle, would greatly help. Right now, you see the heat damage when the next circle is already started. There is basically zero player decision involved, because the second you have the information to make that decision, the game already forced your hand in making the next-one (overheating or not for the next cycle).
So yeah... again, in theory I'd be opposed to a safety. But current UI design and game mecanics really aren't good enough for that.
yup the UI sort of removes the "player skill" and confuses newer players to a point where they are stuck in space with a dead module and it just kills the fun. Also i enjoy flying all sorts of ships and when i hop into a smaller ship and i am in the middle of a fight its easy to forget to turn off overload quicker than i would have to in a cruiser for example, cant all ships have similar overheat timings at least? |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
317
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:34:03 -
[33] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:I don't need to come up with something "creative regarding heat" as I am with the folks who don't see a need for change. There is no need for different modes, as overheat works as intended already: You have the bonus damage by damaging your guns. This is so blatantly true it's hard to believe people are arguing? Your weapons are cooled sufficently when not overheated, you gain extra damage/whatever by exceeding that limit. Having any sort of cutoff point just gives people free dps for no risk while putting new players at a disadvantage, which is absurd.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
980
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:34:12 -
[34] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:yup the UI sort of removes the "player skill" and confuses newer players to a point where they are stuck in space with a dead module and it just kills the fun. Also i enjoy flying all sorts of ships and when i hop into a smaller ship and i am in the middle of a fight its easy to forget to turn off overload quicker than i would have to in a cruiser for example, cant all ships have similar overheat timings at least?
Their own fault for not asking other players. It is not like there are no other players around who couldn't teach them how to read the overheat damage on modules.
That you forget to turn it off is exactly the point of it. You are not aware of your ship's systems and these mistakes cost you your ship or kill. Therefore, you have to learn how to keep track of that and how to manage different ship classes. Having all ships cause the same heat damage does not make sense for a variety of reasons:
- bigger ships have more capabilities to store and dissipate heat than smaller ships;
- smaller weapons are more fragile than bigger weapons, which means the overheat deals more damage quicker to them;
- small weapons cycle a lot faster than bigger weapons, which means that they subjectively suffer more heat damage than bigger weapons. However, they all suffer the same amount and all modules have the same hit points.
Homogenizing that just takes off even more flavor from the game and makes it less challenging to fight. Instead, players should make more use of the much touted, much loved social aspect of the game and ask other players or at least read the manifold resources available in the internet about things they have not tried yet before they try it and fail. Asking for a failsafe just because they don't do it, does not help to make the game better.
I won't deny that the UI could be improved, but completely removing the element of pilot mistake and error and the variety between different modules and ship classes does not help the game at all. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
274
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:37:52 -
[35] - Quote
I'll say it again. If I'm overclocking weapons, I want more control of how much overclocking I'm doing! Make variable heating % a thing for bittervets and the performance obsessed to fiddle with and let everyone else set it for a "safe" and conservative overheat.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
790
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Posted - 2014.11.20 09:43:38 -
[36] - Quote
no. as others already said, you overheat at your own risk and knowledge, burning out modules is the cost. This is all fine. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25244
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Posted - 2014.11.20 15:21:54 -
[37] - Quote
there's so much creative thinking in this thread. way to question the paradigm.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1993
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Posted - 2014.11.20 16:04:47 -
[38] - Quote
variable overheating? ok
as it is, the chance of breaking your mods creates entertaining risk/reward scenarios, hilarious comms and flapping commentators during tournaments. So there should never be a point where you can overheat forever and no system where the overheat turns itself off, no matter how much youve 'toned down' the heating. Otherwise there is no point in not overheating as normal to the point of 99% and then switching to a reduced heat and still getting benefits for no trade off.
As for 'Alpha' overheating, id be careful how far you go with this. Sure more control sounds good, and it'd be a healthy buff to ganking in hi-sec but i have an issue with it:
Are you saying you can over heat normally to the point of 99% damage and then switch to 'alpha' oveheat and benefit from the full effects of that massive O/H bonus and only suffer 1% module damage? Because by doing so you're almost completely removing the balancing factor of overheating so heavily. Again, there is no reason not to do this.
So id say you can only alpha overheat with a mod with full HP. But an option for over-over heat with a slightly bigger bonus with more damage could work.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:13:25 -
[39] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: Are you saying you can over heat normally to the point of 99% damage and then switch to 'alpha' oveheat and benefit from the full effects of that massive O/H bonus and only suffer 1% module damage?
yeah, regardless of what you did before the alpha cycle, it is guaranteed burnout after. if you want to be smart about it, anyway, yes that is the best time--at the end of its damage. 1 last volley, 1 last rep, etc.
heat could also be applied to just one stat of a module, like optimal, damage, or tracking. activated by a radial menu to select heated attribute. right now, heat is a fairly blunt operation.
limited heat could have a drawback of another attribute being reduced. say you want more optimal or falloff, and you have the target dead to rights and you don't need as much tracking.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
780
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:14:23 -
[40] - Quote
How i imagine overheating is that you decide to overheat(modeled in the UI as the click of a button) and your clone begins constantly mentally telling the heat warnings to shut up. If you forget to stop overheating then thats the same as your clone forgetting. Your mods are already running at 100% capability, why would they not be? You are disabling the safety limits so there shouldn't be a 'No really Dave, you should stop that now...'.
On the other hand a simple gieger tic mechanism that increases in frequency (20kHz per % heat) . Imagine trying to stay calm as the pitch raises...much like the sonar scanner in Aliens...a very effective way to induce panic in players! |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1369
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:30:27 -
[41] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: Are you saying you can over heat normally to the point of 99% damage and then switch to 'alpha' oveheat and benefit from the full effects of that massive O/H bonus and only suffer 1% module damage?
yeah, regardless of what you did before the alpha cycle, it is guaranteed burnout after. if you want to be smart about it, anyway, yes that is the best time--at the end of its damage. 1 last volley, 1 last rep, etc. heat could also be applied to just one stat of a module, like optimal, damage, or tracking. activated by a radial menu to select heated attribute. right now, heat is a fairly blunt operation. limited heat could have a drawback of another attribute being reduced. say you want more optimal or falloff, and you have the target dead to rights and you don't need as much tracking.
How much alpha % do you think it could give on the insta burnout mode? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 18:10:04 -
[42] - Quote
no idea, that would be Fozzie and Rise's thing.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
158
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Posted - 2014.11.20 18:16:23 -
[43] - Quote
I would be happy if like modules burn at the same rate. I don't like stopping at 89% on my blasters and 2 have hit 100% and broken
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
55
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Posted - 2014.11.20 18:20:41 -
[44] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:dont understand why we are still stuck with the idea that there is nothing you can do about cooling down systems when they are overheated. like not being able to put water over a flame, doesnt add up
in real life cooling is a big deal, it would be illogical if ccp didnt continue building on and evolving the overheat mechanic. because if overheat exists then cooling needs to exist too, there is simply no logic and no depth to a mechanic which has now become so commonly used
Your modules that can overheat do so because they...well, they generate heat. Just like the engine of your car in real life (if you have a car). Your car's engine generates heat, but it has a cooling system that keeps your engine's heat level below a certain temperature. But sometimes things go wrong, or perhaps someone wants to try to push his car to the limit, and the cooling system is no longer able to keep up with the heat that the engine is producing. Heads get welded to blocks, pistons get launched through the head of the engine, turret barrels become warped, and so on. It's another risk vs. reward scenario. Do you want to do less damage so that you don't have to worry about a burnout, or do you want take the risk of a burnout for the ability to blast the tears out of your enemy even faster?
What you're asking for is the ability to take the risk of a burnout in exchange for more damage, but then remove the risk. You're literally asking to be able to increase your damage/point range/speed bonus/etc. on the fly for no reason, and at no cost. You already have a way to increase the time it takes for your mods to burn out; train Thermodynamics to level 5. After that, all I can suggest is just paying attention to your mods. Turn them off before they burn out and use Nanite Paste.
ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
767
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Posted - 2014.11.20 18:30:18 -
[45] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:How much alpha % do you think it could give on the insta burnout mode? More importantly, how would this affect gank tornados? Oh wait, you mean we might have to change something else to keep this change from causing issues and throwing off an entire ship and role in the process?
I think that creative modifications to the heat mechanic are probably best left to the realm of T3 cruisers. They were supposed to be a heat focused class to begin with. Instead they are just plain over powered or under powered depending on the fit and just happen to be able to overheat for longer than other ships on top of that. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 18:34:53 -
[46] - Quote
it's funny, the benchmark I would start with is tornado alpha. it can alpha itself already, and a couple can alpha a tengu. perhaps a group of 4 can alpha a battleship.
higher damage for lower survivability is a thing, and the latest example is polarized guns. so apparently CCP is ok with the idea of more damage for a drawback.
alpha burnout with polarized guns, now we're talking.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1370
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:03:29 -
[47] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:How much alpha % do you think it could give on the insta burnout mode? More importantly, how would this affect gank tornados? Oh wait, you mean we might have to change something else to keep this change from causing issues and throwing off an entire ship and role in the process?
That was the entire point of the question tbh. I guess thrasher fit in this category of "what if" ship to look at too if something like that was to come. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1370
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 19:05:31 -
[48] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:it's funny, the benchmark I would start with is tornado alpha. it can alpha itself already, and a couple can alpha a tengu. perhaps a group of 4 can alpha a battleship.
higher damage for lower survivability is a thing, and the latest example is polarized guns. so apparently CCP is ok with the idea of more damage for a drawback.
alpha burnout with polarized guns, now we're talking.
There isn't any lower survivability of you are using it for ganking. How tanky of a ship can be ganked even in a 1.0 system if arty get more possible alpha? |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
982
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:15:42 -
[49] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rain6637 wrote:it's funny, the benchmark I would start with is tornado alpha. it can alpha itself already, and a couple can alpha a tengu. perhaps a group of 4 can alpha a battleship.
higher damage for lower survivability is a thing, and the latest example is polarized guns. so apparently CCP is ok with the idea of more damage for a drawback.
alpha burnout with polarized guns, now we're talking. There isn't any lower survivability of you are using it for ganking. How tanky of a ship can be ganked even in a 1.0 system if arty get more possible alpha?
Enough so that Blow Job 4 doesn't end in the disaster of this year's Blow Job 3. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 19:26:38 -
[50] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rain6637 wrote:it's funny, the benchmark I would start with is tornado alpha. it can alpha itself already, and a couple can alpha a tengu. perhaps a group of 4 can alpha a battleship.
higher damage for lower survivability is a thing, and the latest example is polarized guns. so apparently CCP is ok with the idea of more damage for a drawback.
alpha burnout with polarized guns, now we're talking. There isn't any lower survivability of you are using it for ganking. How tanky of a ship can be ganked even in a 1.0 system if arty get more possible alpha? i dunno... bowheads?
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Ormand Audel
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:28:20 -
[51] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:So you want to add a "safety" after you have clearly turned off the "safeties." An override to stop an override. Limit things when you are clearly trying to go past your limits in the first place.
Part of the idea behind overheat is that you are disabling the "safe" operation of modules for better performance... at the risk that they might burn out and leave you more helpless than if you did not. My computer can overclock the fans, but if it uses too much power it'll lower it. Similar idea. Also, to OP, the heat damage isn't how much it's overheated, it's how much damage has been caused by the overheating. So 99% damage means that 99% of the module is pretty much melted. A think overheating should be changed, so the benefits are great, but the module loses effectiveness the higher the damage goes. So instead of "overheat prop mod and point for a couple of cycles while I burn into range" it becomes "if I overheat my prop mod and point now, will I be able to keep up and hold point later?" |
Ormand Audel
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:33:59 -
[52] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:it's funny, the benchmark I would start with is tornado alpha. it can alpha itself already, and a couple can alpha a tengu. perhaps a group of 4 can alpha a battleship.
higher damage for lower survivability is a thing, and the latest example is polarized guns. so apparently CCP is ok with the idea of more damage for a drawback.
alpha burnout with polarized guns, now we're talking. 4 do like 45k damage and it costs 400m+. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:56:40 -
[53] - Quote
my info must be old, I thought it was around 14k per currently. assuming level V skills
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Ormand Audel
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.11.20 19:59:20 -
[54] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:my info must be old, I thought it was around 14k per currently. assuming level V skills I think so, EFT shows 11790 Alpha with a full rack of Howitzers loaded with Quake and 4 gyrostabs. No implants or rigs. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:09:04 -
[55] - Quote
top-tier officer mod performance for 1 cycle maybe. for the damage bonus, I mean.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1371
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Posted - 2014.11.20 20:50:40 -
[56] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:top-tier officer mod performance for 1 cycle maybe. for the damage bonus, I mean.
From T2 to top level officer module, it's about 20% extra alpha single shot compared to the regular OH bonus of 15% ROF. If a fully skilled tornado can currently get more than one shots off while overloading, then it's not worth it to insta burn unless you can change your overload profile on the fly and burn them on the last shot you know you will get. 15% ROF bonus followed by a last shot at 20% bonus alpha would be the cap. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 21:45:26 -
[57] - Quote
I'm doing other things, so I can't look closely at the moment. but basically some figure that is high enough.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
908
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Posted - 2014.11.25 00:52:33 -
[58] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:lots of naysayers, no alternatives. this is so productive.
The alternative is the completely fine mechanic we currently have....
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Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static Gone Critical
3
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Posted - 2014.11.25 01:13:47 -
[59] - Quote
Semi related but id like if you could repair 100% burned mods at a mobile depot it kinda sucks when your in null and cant repair your dead heated modules unless you take a 22j route to a NPC station (or if ur like me dont have a clue where the NPC stations is in null and need to find a uncamped exit to LS or HS) |
uppo nalle
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
8
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Posted - 2014.11.25 02:33:03 -
[60] - Quote
I can't help but to shake my head... the amount of lazy, ignorant, stupid and incapable people there are playing eve these days. If you want to be spoonfed the whole way trough there are other games. Meanwhile let the ones actually capable of playing this wonderful game keep enjoying what is left instead of turning it more into hello kitty island adventure. End of rant.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=256081&find=unread
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