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Shivanthar
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2014.11.21 17:18:23 -
[31] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:-crew wages -ship maintenance
When I hear the word "crew" about eve, I always think of a feature of which is available but not implemented yet. I know it is there, but it has no use. I hope, someday, we have increasingly higher wages for veteran crews. That way, people will have more stuff to do when they decide to watch ship-turning counter.
_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
770
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Posted - 2014.11.21 17:41:03 -
[32] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Not that anyone yet has actually stopped to ask if there is a need for a massive isk sink. Plex prices are not the sole price markers of the larger market as a whole after all. This is an excellent point. PLEX prices are not a reason to make changes to the overall economy. As far as I can tell PLEX prices are going up much faster than the rate of inflation. While this may indicate a speculation bubble, I don't see how it really matters. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
354
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Posted - 2014.11.21 17:46:40 -
[33] - Quote
Well, instead of trying to find the 1 source of isk faucet or sink that is causing our economy to fail, why not just increase the isk sinks by 5% across the board, and decrease the isk faucets by 5% across the board. Suddenly, we now have 10% less isk inflation in the game, and everyone gets hit equally when their activities are printing isk in the game.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Amarisen Gream
Ark University ArK Alliance
55
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Posted - 2014.11.21 19:49:53 -
[34] - Quote
I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)...
I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value.
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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Anhenka
Daktaklakpak.
649
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Posted - 2014.11.21 20:20:02 -
[35] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)...
I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value.
The issue with suggestions regarding nerfing insurance is that they assume that inflation is more of an issue than people not PvPing.
The game runs on PvP. You buy a ship, insure a ship, run out and in said ship. You then take the money you got from the insurance and turn around and can immediately afford most of another ship. This money is what keeps demand for miners/inventors/producers products high. Anyone remember when Trit was barely over 1 isk a few years ago when the map was incredibly stagnant? I do.
This basic cycle drives the market, keep PvP players in business, and lowers the barrier for conflicts to occur.
Risking a dread fleet when you can recoup 2/3 the cost of a fitted dread when it dies is a hell of a lot easier than risking a dread that has no payout. It's as if the risk of fielding them suddenly triples.
If lowers the barrier for "worth fighting over"
Got a________ moon you want to start a fight over? Is it worth risking a fleet that's a 3 bil loss to replace in the case of a total whelp over? Sure. Why not.
Is it worth risking a 10 bil (the exact same ships and # of people mind you) to fight over? Naaaah, **** that.
Eve inflation is a questionable problem at best. By questionable I mean in if it's a problem at all. Even healthy RL economies consider a certain amount of constant inflation to be healthy. And RL don't flip flip their **** and start cutting/raising taxes by half jsut because one commodity (lets say gold) increases at 4x the rate of inflation.
So is inflation an issue? MAYBE Is it as big of an issue as creating a major deterrent to PvP in Eve? Not a chance in hell. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1378
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Posted - 2014.11.21 20:49:29 -
[36] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)...
I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value. The issue with suggestions regarding nerfing insurance is that they assume that inflation is more of an issue than people not PvPing. The game runs on PvP. You buy a ship, insure a ship, run out and in said ship. You then take the money you got from the insurance and turn around and can immediately afford most of another ship. This money is what keeps demand for miners/inventors/producers products high. Anyone remember when Trit was barely over 1 isk a few years ago when the map was incredibly stagnant? I do. This basic cycle drives the market, keep PvP players in business, and lowers the barrier for conflicts to occur. Risking a dread fleet when you can recoup 2/3 the cost of a fitted dread when it dies is a hell of a lot easier than risking a dread that has no payout. It's as if the risk of fielding them suddenly triples. If lowers the barrier for "worth fighting over" Got a________ moon you want to start a fight over? Is it worth risking a fleet that's a 3 bil loss to replace in the case of a total whelp over? Sure. Why not. Is it worth risking a 10 bil (the exact same ships and # of people mind you) to fight over? Naaaah, **** that. Eve inflation is a questionable problem at best. By questionable I mean in if it's a problem at all. Even healthy RL economies consider a certain amount of constant inflation to be healthy. And RL don't flip flip their **** and start cutting/raising taxes by half jsut because one commodity (lets say gold) increases at 4x the rate of inflation. So is inflation an issue? MAYBEIs it as big of an issue as creating a major deterrent to PvP in Eve? Not a chance in hell.
I'd have to agree with this. Determining if inflation is a problem first and applying fix only if needed would be a better course of action. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
159
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Posted - 2014.11.21 21:06:36 -
[37] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:1) Remove insurance
Lore reason: They're bankrupt, we've been scamming them for too long.
Actual reason: Player ship destruction shouldn't be an ISK faucet.
2) Double the ISK price of LP store items (and sec for tags)
Lore reason: They adjusted their prices for inflation. Consumer associations are protesting, but they have better lawyers.
Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks.
3) Make NPC-owned gate travel cost some ISK.
Lore reason: The owners decided that the maintenance and operation costs should be paid for by the users.
Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and it would make Jita price dictation harder. Also rewards finding and using WH shortcuts. Sovspace would have no cost by default, but gates would increase sov bills and sovholders can set a usage price (up to a high but reasonable limit to prevent abuse).
Edit: maybe make it proportional to ship size, to avoid penalizing new players too much.
4) Make the broker fee of market order modification minimum a set amount of 2.5% of total items price +2.5% of individual item price.
Lore reason: Greedy brokers got greedier. Not much you can do.
Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and we don't like 0.01 isk wars.
removing insurance will just keep isk from being injected to someone that decided to use insurance to replace their ship, also it only works for t1 ships. for the people that do use it (most of eve doesn't) if they lose their ship they can get a new one if they didnt have a bankroll saved up IE you buy a mega and in the process of missioning to a better ship or mods, you die horribly but you had insurance you can get a new mega and have to replace modules, instead restarting from a frigate or how ever much you had before your mega met an untimely end. I would go for if you dont insure you get 0 back and not 50% default with no insurace maybe
Also losing a ship is not an isk sink, CCP totes that most of the market is player controlled (i hear 90% figures in empire) based on your location, in outpost its 100% player controlled and theres even a higher percentage in null npc. But unless you buy something seeded by a npc (which most of the time you dont) the ISK just changes hands from 1 player to another minus some tax.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Cyndrogen
Angels Of Life
634
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Posted - 2014.11.21 21:28:24 -
[38] - Quote
I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Eve needs MORE players. Players drive the economy, offer better choices to get more people in game and doing something useful. DUST is free, Eve online still has an antiquated subscription model which doesn't really offer much in terms of value other then access to the game. I would like to see a store with FITTED, yes FITTED ships that players could purchase so I can invite friends and play a session. Basically it's like the old arcade games, you can pay a quarter to fly a fitted ship, you lose it you pay another quarter. Just like arcade machines. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
772
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Posted - 2014.11.21 21:39:28 -
[39] - Quote
Cyndrogen wrote:I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Eve needs MORE players. Players drive the economy, offer better choices to get more people in game and doing something useful. DUST is free, Eve online still has an antiquated subscription model which doesn't really offer much in terms of value other then access to the game. I would like to see a store with FITTED, yes FITTED ships that players could purchase so I can invite friends and play a session. Basically it's like the old arcade games, you can pay a quarter to fly a fitted ship, you lose it you pay another quarter. Just like arcade machines. lol no. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
503
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:06:41 -
[40] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Anhenka wrote:Not that anyone yet has actually stopped to ask if there is a need for a massive isk sink. Plex prices are not the sole price markers of the larger market as a whole after all. This is an excellent point. PLEX prices are not a reason to make changes to the overall economy. As far as I can tell PLEX prices are going up much faster than the rate of inflation. While this may indicate a speculation bubble, I don't see how it really matters.
Correct, as I somewhat glibly pointed out earlier.
I dont understand why people get antsy about inflation in games, so long as stuff drops from rats even newbies are still on the same basic playing field. The only people inflation burns are people on long breaks with large liquid stashes. |
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Silky Cyno
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
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Posted - 2014.11.21 22:19:44 -
[41] - Quote
We can rename eve to nickel and dime you to death online.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2014.11.22 00:25:46 -
[42] - Quote
Clone death costs.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2014.11.22 00:41:17 -
[43] - Quote
Some new and very expensive stuff for LP stores could be nice ... maybe genolution implant set, t2 capital mods etc ... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1702
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:18:15 -
[44] - Quote
The market disagrees that inflation is taking place. Plex may be rising due to supply & demand, this does not mean inflation is happening.
At last report we had slight deflation AND since then we have had a huge sink in the form of manufacturing introduced.
So before suggesting additional sinks or nerfs of faucets, please produce evidence we need them. |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:39:48 -
[45] - Quote
With ship painting a possibility I would love to see that cost a solid amount for each paint job applied. Say 5-10% the cost of the ship. Then you can be sure that every time someone loses a painted ship they are truly destroying someones hard earned isk. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3094
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Posted - 2014.11.22 01:48:34 -
[46] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:The market disagrees that inflation is taking place. Plex may be rising due to supply & demand, this does not mean inflation is happening.
At last report we had slight deflation AND since then we have had a huge sink in the form of manufacturing introduced.
So before suggesting additional sinks or nerfs of faucets, please produce evidence we need them.
This. OP has yet to present any evidence that there is significant inflation in the economy or any real reason why we need more ISK sinks.
PLEX prices too high for you? Stop being cheap and pay a subscription instead of running all your accounts on PLEX. Reduce the demand a bit. Or buy some PLEX and sell it - increase the supply. Or do both. If more people paid their own subscriptions or sold PLEX the price would start to decrease. Instead we have people running 6 alts on PLEX, very few people selling them and ludicrously high prices. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
77
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Posted - 2014.11.22 04:05:57 -
[47] - Quote
I've been thinking about this for a bit.
With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it.
I like the gate toll idea actually. If I were to implement it, then the charge would be based on the AU of the jump with some part of it based on the standings of the pilot to the owner of the gates. Maybe with a skill later on to lower costs?
The charge would actually be rather light, maybe no more that maybe 1000 ISK at most for the longest jump with the worst standings. With good standings and short jumps, I can see around 1-200 ISK per jump. Pods and rookie ships would be exempt from this charge. This would allow for someone who is completely spacepoor to start from scratch.
This would take a small amount of ISK out of the game from each player using the gates, but would add up to remove a decent amount from the game overall. Plus, it can be circumvented by those who decide that the convenience of the gates isn't worth the toll: wormhole travel, jumpclones, jumpships, travelling via pod or rookie ship, and I'm sure there are other ways. Being able to avoid the gates is good in my book, because it allows choices for the player.
Those who might be hurt by this would be the freighter pilot -- but they can roll the expense into the the products being sold. Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day. However, I don't believe, that beyond the initial knee-jerk reaction of players to such a change, there would really be all that much of a difference in income for the pilot/manufacturer/miner or what have you. The tax is designed to be as little as possible to the individual. A mission runner is likely to spend much more on ammo in a salvo or two than his jumping for the whole day.
I can also see this as something that the corp tax could be used for in PC corps. Just turn your trip ticket into the CEO for reimbursement
--Gadget |
Jackson Apollo
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:10:23 -
[48] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day.
FU buddy.
I can make 150-200 jumps per day.
I already pay enough for that right.
EVE is already my second job (granted a job I like as much as my RL job).
I rather see all ships pay for gas so that it hits EVERYONE EQUALLY. (<---also stupid, also not really everyone equally, just more equally than stupid gate fees)
LEAVE MY ISK ALONE! (<---best idea) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
464
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:35:15 -
[49] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:I've been thinking about this for a bit.
You shouldn't have..
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it...
Why?
signature
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
77
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:38:19 -
[50] - Quote
Jackson Apollo wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day.
FU buddy. I can make 150-200 jumps per day. I already pay enough for that right. EVE is already my second job (granted a job I like as much as my RL job). I rather see all ships pay for gas so that it hits EVERYONE EQUALLY. (<---also stupid, also not really everyone equally, just more equally than stupid gate fees) LEAVE MY ISK ALONE! (<---best idea)
Really, sweetie. A direct attack?
You have no 'rights' in EvE. CCP can change the rules as they see fit. They can ban you for anything they want. Scratch that. You have ONE right. You can Just. Not. Play.
As for my musings, the ISK amount was a random number that looked small on my end. If this idea were ever put into place, I'm sure CCP would take a good look at just who were using the gates: number of pilots and jumps, areas, ship types, and maybe even how often. They would then create some algorithm for the final toll.
Also, I forgot to add ship type to my little calculation. I think that smaller ships would pay less. Classes might be frigs/destroyers, cruisers/BC's Battleships, Capitals while industrial ships would get a discount. After looking at it a second time (and without any actual data), my gut tells me that the actual toll would be much smaller than what I had originally threw in.
--Gadget |
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
77
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Posted - 2014.11.22 06:47:50 -
[51] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:I've been thinking about this for a bit. You shouldn't have.. Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it...
Why?
/shrug One of the problems in academia. I can't help but to think about things
As for why the replacement. This is the purpose of this thread, right?
Maybe the Economy will survive quite well without that extra sink, maybe it won't. Doesn't hurt to have a few ideas in mind should rampant inflation become a problem. It's nice to be proactive. Thought costs us nothing. I'd rather have a few unneeded ideas in the works rather than discover EvE has become space Zimbabwe.
--Gadget |
Anthar Thebess
803
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Posted - 2014.11.22 08:17:18 -
[52] - Quote
Stop linking this thread to Plex prices.
Plex are not usual item in eve. Players don't produce them and they don't drop any where from PVE activity.
Plex price will be not affected by this.
If we cut isk generation by 50% and plex price drops by 50% it will really don't change any thing. Base value will be still the same.
Yes this game needs new players. But this inflation easily kills their initial experience.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
564
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Posted - 2014.11.22 14:42:51 -
[53] - Quote
Increase ISK costs of items in LP store but keep LP costs the same. This'll drive up e.g. implant prices and not sure if this is desirable. I heard there's something happening in the implant/HW/booster world so I'd wait for that to see what happens.
Jump clones could to pay a small rent (installation cost per week?) or install cost could be bumped to 1-10 Mil.
Base broker fees multiplied by 3 or 5.
Insurance cost tied to how much you've cashed out, maybe a linear f(x)=ln(x) scale on a moving 30-day window. Only payouts would affect this and base payments for uninsured ships would not affect this.
Base insurance costs could be removed.
Reprocessing/refinery base tax, maybe 5 isk per 1m3. This has a chance of rising the prices of goos by some degree but would be a permanent raise in expenses. This would come down to about 900k per hour in refinery charges with an orca boosted miner. Slight dip in ISK/h but not massive.
Or just tax EVERYTHING in hisec and lowsec, let station owners tax as freely as they now can in nullsec. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
653
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Posted - 2014.11.22 15:59:07 -
[54] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Stop linking this thread to Plex prices.
Plex are not usual item in eve. Players don't produce them and they don't drop any where from PVE activity.
Plex price will be not affected by this.
If we cut isk generation by 50% and plex price drops by 50% it will really don't change any thing. Base value will be still the same.
Yes this game needs new players. But this inflation easily kills their initial experience.
What inflation?
If you are not using plex's as a thing to point to that "OMG LOOK AT INFLATION", then what are you pointing at?
Because a Rupture is roughly 1 mil more than it was when I purchased my first rupture FIVE YEARS AGO! Dreadnaughts seem to cost about the same as they always have, same with carriers. Mineral baskets are as always fluctuating, on a slightly higher than expected due to consumption and speculation about the fledgling wars in nullsec.
Battleships cost considerable more, but that's mainly because the the mineral production requirement changes when they underwent tieracide.
Everyone's going "Oh let's do this to fix inflation" "This would work great as a drastic sink to curb inflation" "Blah blah blah solve inflation"
WHAT INFLATION?? Can someone for the love of Cthulu please point me to a single source that indicates that EVE is undergoing inflation AT ALL? Cause I'm not seeing it. |
NFain
Quantum Singularities WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
103
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Posted - 2014.11.22 16:31:49 -
[55] - Quote
Plex4insurance? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3094
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Posted - 2014.11.22 17:32:37 -
[56] - Quote
Do Dr. Eyjog and his team still publish reports on the EVE economy? If not, that's too bad. If so, perhaps some of the Chicken Littles in this thread (and the others like it) should read them before playing Amateur Armchair Economist and declaring that the proverbial sky is falling.
As an additional hint: When the price of an item increases because it costs more to make (battleships/battlecruisers requiring significantly more minerals to manufacture), that is not inflation. Inflation is the price of everything going up simply because there's too much money in circulation for any of it to be worth anything. That is not what we have here in EVE. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
654
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Posted - 2014.11.22 17:36:29 -
[57] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Do Dr. Eyjog and his team still publish reports on the EVE economy? If not, that's too bad. If so, perhaps some of the Chicken Littles in this thread (and the others like it) should read them before playing Amateur Armchair Economist and declaring that the proverbial sky is falling.
Eyjog took a position at some prestigious Icelandic University a while back. Your point still applies though, there are a ton of people here with solutions in search of a problem that nobody has shown exists yet. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
505
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Posted - 2014.11.22 18:30:43 -
[58] - Quote
I don't buy inflation hurting newbies.
All the NPC drops, exploration junk, minerals spike....big deal their relative income is the same.
It only actually hurts direct isk injection: bounties (and WH buy orders). |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
159
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Posted - 2014.11.22 22:41:29 -
[59] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:This game really needs good isk sink. Currently economy is slowly falling because prices are growing and growing.
Reasons for current situations are many : - ships where boosted , more dps = faster and more efficient ratting - smart bombing ratting fleets are all around renter space became quite common - ships are dying ( each lost ship don't remove isk from game, just create it from the air ) - etc
Some drastic measures needs to be put in place. This also have to be done without harming any current system - like LP Stores, or missions. Please post your ideas here , maybe some Dev will look at this and put some of your ideas into actions
EDIT:
Please stop linking this thread to raising PLEX prices. Plex is not created by players or obtained by any PVE activity. If all people start to earn 50% less isk , and PLEX price will drop by 50% , there will be any real change for plex price.
There is no possibility that any ISK sink will reduce VALUE , again VALUE of the PLEX. Price might drop, as there will be less isk, but it will be still MORE EXPENSIVE when you include your reduced income. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The best isk sink in the universe is other players...
More PVP?
Other than that I want to see Rats ganking mining barges as in 0.5 space it's way to easy to survive any number of rats at a belt.
Make it cost more to do missions. Raise collateral through the roof!
Docking fees anyone?
Capsular permits from each empire, otherwise you wont be allowed to operate in their space etc.
Just a couple of quick ideas of the top of my head.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
65
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Posted - 2014.11.23 01:44:31 -
[60] - Quote
OK first the admission that I have not read every post in this topic I read about half of them so this may be a little off base.
Many of the things I read here would hurt our newest players the most. ideas like No insurance Fees to dock Fees to keep your ship docked Fees for using the NPC jump gates Reduced incomes from missions etc and the list goes on
Perhaps we need to look into nul sec first and foremost then tricked down(up) to high sec. The large nul blocks with their monopolies on several of the materials critical to building everything but the simplest of ships and modules probably have far more influence on the markets than all of the high sec players combined. After all most high sec players have to pay what is asked, or simply not buy what they want.
The potential problems we have with the game economy are many and varied in both sources and affects and no one single idea will solve them especially if those ideas hit any one segment of the game harder than they do all others. I am not sure what the answers are but I do know what they answers cannot be. We cannot try to remedy this by putting all of the burdens onto high sec, just as we cannot remedy it by putting all of the burdens onto those in nul.
The only group of players that needs/deserves special care and attention in all of this are the newest players in our midst as they are always the ones hardest hit by changes like these.
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