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Jenshae Chiroptera
526
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Posted - 2014.11.23 09:46:08 -
[1] - Quote
I know you are all going to scream and gnash your teeth but let the idea stew in your heads for a bit before you hit the reply and flame this.
I have now flown all of the Gallente Haulers. They all have rubbish tanks. You might be able to hull tank and shield tank a few for somewhat okay eHP but then you move slower than a freighter. The Viator and Nereus can be quite quick. The Viator has covert cloak that helps a fair bit. However, the Occator? Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship and again no real tank to speak of and you need a scout & pings then you sit around cloaked while slowly aligning to places. Wasting huge amounts of two people's time to move a cargo worth as much as the ship (and it isn't worth what you pay for it)
Now, a freighter, you could escort with a fleet that has logi and there is a smaller portion of people that could volley it out of existance. You can't carry more than 2 billion in one because otherwise it is profitable to suicide gank it in high-sec. The haulers can be done with a few destroyers. Occator is 200M ISK the Obelisk is 1200M ISK. So, look at the value, you pay 1/6th the price for 1/10th the tank (if you are stupid and double tank it) and 1/9th the cargo hold. Joy of joys you might warp 3x faster but everything with a tackle can see where you go and be there first.
That is one example.
What I am essentially saying is that if a gank is set up perfectly, there is nothing you can do. You are blown up.
How about a volley can only take you down to 50% of your eHP and then it takes another 1.5 seconds before you can wipe it out? This would mean the logi have the time to lock, the same time as you but they can then respond.
If the gank is perfect. Then the escort should have a chance to respond perfectly and survive.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13971
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Posted - 2014.11.23 09:56:38 -
[2] - Quote
Go find a freighter that was alpha'ed.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
84
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Posted - 2014.11.23 10:19:33 -
[3] - Quote
this seems sorta like a stealth nerf gank stealth nerf stealthbombers concotion...
I admit that getting ganked on is annoying, had it happen to me once but its not nearly as bad as you think... I move billions of ISK in ships around most of every day and if you're sensible (like i wasnt) you can do so fairly safely... |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
191
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Posted - 2014.11.23 11:03:41 -
[4] - Quote
I know.. Lets give haulers an extra Bay, lets call it the Strontium hangar, and when u volley half the shields the ship in question goes into this speclal mode where u can't shoot it until the strontium runs out!
It's amazing noone has thought of this kind of mechanic before. I am AWESOME!
duh.
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Mag's
the united
18176
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Posted - 2014.11.23 12:49:31 -
[5] - Quote
Just when I thought all the bad nerf ganking ideas have been posted already, the OP goes and posts theirs.
Plus the OP isn't even being honest let alone thinking, before posting.
TL:DR No.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1993
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:05:51 -
[6] - Quote
Dear lord no.
'What I am essentially saying is that if a gank is set up perfectly, there is nothing you can do. You are blown up.'
If they've gone through all that trouble and prepared that much firepower and then executed it with that much precision, why should you stand a chance? This is what happens when you are out numbered, outgunned and out played. A lone cruiser cant win a fight against 20 cruisers if those 20 cruisers are competent. You really need to accept that this is a game where you are going to lose your stuff from time to time. And not always because you screwed up. Many times it will be because the other guys are just that damn determined. Act accordingly.
Have you tried bringing as many or more griffins/blackbirds/damnations/logi/daredevils as they have gankers. Or take another route. Or take your stuff to a different market. Or carry less at a time?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
656
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:12:12 -
[7] - Quote
I doubt catalysts or Talos's would have any problem with each volley only taking out 50% of your max ehp.
Thrashers and Tornado's would probably like to have a word with you in a dark alley, but you don't gank freighters or DST's with thrashers, you do it with rapid RoF blaster ships.
So your proposed change would do nothing against high value target ganking.
P.S. Your idea is terrible in its entirety. Please do not construe specific bashing of one part to mean endorsement in any way shape or form of the other parts. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
626
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:22:46 -
[8] - Quote
Your idea is terrible. You basically killed all of large fleet PVP because you cannot figure out how to haul things safely. Here is one hint: the problem is not with the Occator. The problem is with the pod pilot's attitude and unwillingness to plan and prepare 1/10th as hard as potential adversaries.
If you are moving goods in potentially hostile space, which I define as all of Eve, you should prepare accordingly. Recon your route. Make pings 200 km pings off each gate. Make bounce safe spots in the middle of the system, so you do not telegraph your immediate destination. Use the MWD + cloak trick at every gate. Don't warp straight to the gate - warp to your safe spot, then warp to the out gate. Fit a MMJD to have another way of escaping.
Eve already gives you the tools to be successful, you just have to use them.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
865
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:46:11 -
[9] - Quote
From my experience generally you just need the EHP to survive a single nado. Otherwise you probably got unlucky and ran into an organised camp and within reason no amount of EHP will save you or you've been a marked target for some time (usually due to flashing bling around) and they've come with the setup crafted to kill you.
There are ways to move a DST around that massively minimised the risks as well though I'm not going to give away all my methods heh. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
526
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Posted - 2014.11.23 20:11:13 -
[10] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:this seems sorta like a stealth nerf gank stealth nerf stealthbombers concotion...
Two lots of bombers, one after another timing it.
I am talking about how you can have 50 man fleet with logi and a indy. Another smaller fleet can come in and blow the indy away. Just give logi that chance
.... it applies to all ships. Not tired of seeing you combat ships get blown away with nothing you can do? Just lost the lottery? Not chance for your team to appy some skill to change the outcome?
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
390
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Posted - 2014.11.23 23:10:09 -
[11] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship It has a base warp speed of 3.5 AU like every other DST and aligns in 7.5 seconds, regardless of tank. What's the problem? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6601
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Posted - 2014.11.23 23:36:22 -
[12] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:the Occator? Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship and again no real tank to speak *cough*
[Occator, High-sec Hauler]
Damage Control II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Inertia Stabilizers II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I EM Ward Amplifier II EM Ward Amplifier II
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
With level 5 skills it has.... - around 88,000 effective hitpoints (113,000 with the armor hardeners overheated). That makes it a Battlecruiser in terms of tank. You need a minimum of 16 to 20 gank Catalysts to kill this thing in a 0.5 system.
- 62,000 cubic meters of space in its fleet hanger + 3,900 cubic meter cargobay
- aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers). Or you can pulse the MWD once to get into warp in half that time.
- The trick with overheating the hardeners is that your prime them for overhating, but don't turn them on unless you see a group warp in on you (in high-sec).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Xercodo
Vector Galactic Did he say Jump
3866
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Posted - 2014.11.23 23:57:02 -
[13] - Quote
Here's an alternative style to Shah's
[Occator, New Setup 1] 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Damage Control II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction EM Ward Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
all out tank
109k, 186k all overheated
The Drake is a Lie
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Jenshae Chiroptera
526
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Posted - 2014.11.24 00:10:13 -
[14] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:[ - aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers).
It is a Tech 2 ship. Some 100x more expensive with a lot more skill requirements.
"Occator" rig slot ="Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II" rig slot ="Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I" low slot type="Damage Control II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II" low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II" med slot type="Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I" med slot type="EM Ward Field II" med slot type="Adaptive Invulnerability Field II" hi slot type="Improved Cloaking Device II"
45K eHP 42.97m/s 4.13 au/s 10.41 s align 0.395224 Inertia
Even if you pulse the MWD, align under cloak and have pings, it is horrible to fly. The Nereus is far better and more responsive.
Getting stuck on the example.
Would a chance to apply skill not be better than losing a lottery?.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6601
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Posted - 2014.11.24 00:17:59 -
[15] - Quote
Just because something is more expensive or skill intensive... it does not necessarily make it "better."
Tech 1 Cruisers are generally a fair bit faster than Tech 2 Cruisers (even though the latter generally has a nominally better align time).
Capitals can be taken out by gangs (even small ones) of Frigates and Cruisers.
I fail to see a problem with this.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
76
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Posted - 2014.11.24 00:20:56 -
[16] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:[ - aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers).
It is a Tech 2 ship. Some 100x more expensive with a lot more skill requirements. "Occator" rig slot ="Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II" rig slot ="Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I" low slot type="Damage Control II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II" low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II" low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II" med slot type="Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I" med slot type="EM Ward Field II" med slot type="Adaptive Invulnerability Field II" hi slot type="Improved Cloaking Device II" 45K eHP 42.97m/s 4.13 au/s 10.41 s align 0.395224 Inertia Even if you pulse the MWD, align under cloak and have pings, it is horrible to fly. The Nereus is far better and more responsive. Getting stuck on the example. Would a chance to apply skill not be better than losing a lottery?. That's not a good fit. You can cloak-MWD maneuver the Occator and still sport a fat tank well over 100xx EHP. You said Nereus though. Let's talk Nereus.
[Nereus, EHP]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
2x Large Shield Extender II 3x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Damage Control II 4x Expanded Cargohold II
3x Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
- 8500 m3, 59 000 EHP, 6.5s align
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
129
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Posted - 2014.11.24 00:36:21 -
[17] - Quote
is this a stealth buff remote armor reps thread? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
526
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Posted - 2014.11.24 01:58:52 -
[18] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote:is this a stealth (something) thread?
No. I try and speak plainly. This "steal thread" meme wasn't funny the first time I read it and it saddens me that this is what passes for wit around here now.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
630
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Posted - 2014.11.24 02:14:01 -
[19] - Quote
If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.
And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
528
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Posted - 2014.11.24 10:20:07 -
[20] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.
And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality.
The tank doesn't buy you any time, a ship scan and a calculation later the right number of ships are waiting. However, you can fly a ship without modules if you have a good scout.
I moved into a system that was apparently full of reds months ago. Then it was mostly blue but people would hide in dock and change systems. Now I am part of getting us more organised. We undock if we know we will wipe the invaders out. It is a death trap. No good fights, no easy kills. Almost a certainty that you will either die to us or to another fleet that will lock you into the system.
Tell me again about victim mentalities.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
130
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Posted - 2014.11.24 11:01:15 -
[21] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Gawain Edmond wrote:is this a stealth (something) thread? No. I try and speak plainly. This "steal thread" meme wasn't funny the first time I read it and it saddens me that this is what passes for wit around here now.
Sadly it's the only way that this idea would work alot of the ships that get ganked are designed to be armor tanks if you tank them at all. A 1.5 second delay in exploding while enough time to lock someone isn't enough time for armor reps to do anything at all. The only way it would work is by either making armor reps land at the start of the cycle or giving them less repping power per cycle and a 1 second cycle time to bring the rep ammount upto the current ammount and even then I'm not sure it'd help anyway.
So the only way this idea would ever work is if you buffed/changed remote armor reps, so if this isn't a stealth request to buff/change remote armor reps I don't know what is. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
528
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Posted - 2014.11.24 11:08:17 -
[22] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote: Sadly it's the only way that this idea would work alot of the ships that get ganked are designed to be armor tanks if you tank them at all. A 1.5 second delay in exploding while enough time to lock someone isn't enough time for armor reps to do anything at all. The only way it would work is by either making armor reps land at the start of the cycle or giving them less repping power per cycle and a 1 second cycle time to bring the rep ammount upto the current ammount and even then I'm not sure it'd help anyway.
So the only way this idea would ever work is if you buffed/changed remote armor reps, so if this isn't a stealth request to buff/change remote armor reps I don't know what is.
Thank you. This is a reason mine is shield tanked. Unfortunately, it means sebo logi so they lock you as soon as you de-cloak. The little delay is for them to hit their rep modules.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Zylona Femtov
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.11.24 12:40:39 -
[23] - Quote
Indy are far too easy target for a bunch of bullies that don't do anything good.
They use very cheap hardware to destroyed very expensive ships and cargo. Adding the fact that Concord is far too slow to respond.
Some game mechanics should be rethink here. Those people don't have balls to play, just acting like bullies in a playground. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1994
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Posted - 2014.11.24 12:44:05 -
[24] - Quote
Zylona Femtov wrote:Indy are far too easy target for a bunch of bullies that don't do anything good.
They use very cheap hardware to destroyed very expensive ships and cargo. Adding the fact that Concord is far too slow to respond.
Some game mechanics should be rethink here. Those people don't have balls to play, just acting like bullies in a playground.
this might not be the right game for you...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
391
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Posted - 2014.11.24 17:17:32 -
[25] - Quote
Zylona Femtov wrote:Indy are far too easy target for a bunch of bullies that (A)don't do anything good.
They use very cheap hardware to (B)destroyed very expensive ships and cargo.
The industrialist in me demands that I inform you that statement (A) is contradicted by statement (B). |
Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
309
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Posted - 2014.11.24 17:44:43 -
[26] - Quote
Zylona Femtov wrote:Indy are far too easy target for a bunch of bullies that don't do anything good.
They use very cheap hardware to destroyed very expensive ships and cargo. Adding the fact that Concord is far too slow to respond.
Some game mechanics should be rethink here. Those people don't have balls to play, just acting like bullies in a playground.
The fact that you refer to a certain segment of legitamate game play as bullies says worlds about your own perspective on the game.
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
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Tineoidea Asanari
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
8
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Posted - 2014.11.24 19:28:17 -
[27] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I have now flown all of the Gallente Haulers. They all have rubbish tanks. You might be able to hull tank and shield tank a few for somewhat okay eHP but then you move slower than a freighter.
Run a MWD 1 cycle and you are much faster in warp. Freighters cant do this, they need webbers.
Quote:The Viator has covert cloak that helps a fair bit.
A fair bit means that you are basically uncatchable without bubbles, as long as you are using instant dock/undock spots.
Quote:However, the Occator? Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship and again no real tank to speak of
You know that the Occator has a bonus on overheating stuff? Pre-heat your hardeners and as soon as you see a swarm of Catalysts/Talos warping to you, you activate the mods. You might want to fit specific faction hardeners, those cost around ~ 3 - 5 million each and give a significant boost to your tank
Quote:and you need a scout & pings then you sit around cloaked while slowly aligning to places. Wasting huge amounts of two people's time to move a cargo worth as much as the ship (and it isn't worth what you pay for it)
First off: Use a MWD to accelerate getting into warp. Even Capitals use this fairly effectivly, so dont tell me it doesnt work for your Occator. Second: If your Cargo isnt worth it, noone will gank you.
Quote:What I am essentially saying is that if a gank is set up perfectly, there is nothing you can do. You are blown up.
How about a volley can only take you down to 50% of your eHP and then it takes another 1.5 seconds before you can wipe it out? This would mean the logi have the time to lock, the same time as you but they can then respond.
If someone sets up something perfectly, you wouldnt have a chance either way. And they earned to get that kill on you. Your buff to logistics would be fairly stupid. Right now logistics as force multiplier is already closely-to-overpowered or already overpowered. At least its's very strong. If I - as someone flying like only logistics - am able to give reps in fleets where we encounter more incoming DPS on ships tanked just as hard, you shouldnt have a hard time either. Maybe you need to skill "Signature Analysis" or you might wanna fit a Sensor Booster on your Logi. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
76
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Posted - 2014.11.24 20:43:38 -
[28] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The tank doesn't buy you any time, a ship scan and a calculation later the right number of ships are waiting. However, you can fly a ship without modules if you have a good scout.
You must have missed my post.
You can get 900xx EHP with a slaved Impel so yes the tank buys you everything you need to stay safe.
The Nereus and Badger can hit over 50xx EHP while fit for the cloak-MWD maneuver. There's 3 reasons why you will rarely be ganked like this. They can't scan you so they won't know if it's profitable. You can use the same maneuver on the gank gate and won't be catchable. They gank solo or in small groups, rarely having the 4-5 guys on standby needed within the next couple minutes to make this happen.
There is no issue hauling safely in high-sec, none whatsoever. Only freighters propose a reasonable level of risk.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
112
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Posted - 2014.11.25 03:56:24 -
[29] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
The Nereus and Badger can hit over 50xx EHP while fit for the cloak-MWD maneuver.
MWD + Cloak trick is super useful . If it can get you past huge gangs in Low Sec (It can, I use it all the time) then it should be even easier in HS.
As long as you can fit a MWD + T2 cloak you have no reason to get caught other than lazyness.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1990
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Posted - 2014.11.25 05:34:49 -
[30] - Quote
I don't see a problem with sudden death in EVE. If you want to push for a firing delay on artillery, I might be on-board. But what you propose is out of the question and I will not offer support.
baltec1 wrote:Go find a freighter that was alpha'ed. I have an orca on my killboard that was alpha'ed. Close enough? Trust me, it happens. edit: I can't find the orca killmail, not sure what happened to it.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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