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Jenshae Chiroptera
529
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:31:36 -
[31] - Quote
I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on?
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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8 EyedSpy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:42:02 -
[32] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: No chance for your team to apply some skill to change the outcome?
Whining to ccp to change mechanics is not skillful gameplay.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6616
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Posted - 2014.11.26 00:01:15 -
[33] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on? The MWD-trick may be a workaround... but it is a clever one that has been around for ages and CCP doesn't seem to mind (see: only CCP can declare something an exploit). The same applies for the webbing-trick.
And how are Deep Space Transports "intended to work?" The way I see it... they are industrial ships that give up speed/mobility in exchange for a very beefy tank and a relatively large cargo hold.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1995
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Posted - 2014.11.26 01:54:21 -
[34] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on? The MWD-trick may be a workaround... but it is a clever one that has been around for ages and CCP doesn't seem to mind (see: only CCP can declare something an exploit). The same applies for the webbing-trick. I think the MWD-cloak, web, and other insta-warp tricks are things CCP dislikes being available, but which they see no decent way to remove. As they are a decent company and against arbitrary rules that press unreasonable limits against players (might be the only decent MMO company out there) they refuse to stoop and make arbitrary rulings either preventing the "exploit" or banning players for using it. And so they declare it okay, and it gets used to such great effect that it is the status quo.
But I imagine if CCP discovered a clever way to make it not work without stepping on any toes save for those who are relying on the advantage they get from insta-warp tricks, that CCP would implement it if even slowly or tentatively to see what happens.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6616
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Posted - 2014.11.26 02:03:32 -
[35] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I think the MWD-cloak, web, and other insta-warp tricks are things CCP dislikes being available, but which they see no decent way to remove. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38HD7PbN4o&feature=youtu.be&t=19m15s
If you back up a bit, you'll hear about the design principles that the DEVs teams try to adhere to. Basically they are fine with some workarounds as long as there a margin of error that other players can take advantage of... or something along those lines.
So you are right Reaver that CCP isn't unreasonable when it comes to certain things and will bend a bit. But it those rulings seem to be based more on the spirit of what they want the game to be than the hard letter of the rules themselves.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.26 22:05:47 -
[36] - Quote
Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
672
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Posted - 2014.11.26 22:23:57 -
[37] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits.
What exploits...
Do you consider ganking an exploit.....? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 02:10:28 -
[38] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits. What exploits... Do you consider ganking an exploit.....?
No, it is a philosphy with which I disagree. You clearly haven't read the thread.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
643
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Posted - 2014.11.27 02:32:51 -
[39] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits.
Just because you call it an exploit, does not make it so. Hitting your MWD, then hitting your cloak, is a tactic that has been around for ages, and is well-established. Only CCP can change my word "tactic" to your "exploit." So long as it is not foolproof, they are unlikely to do that.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 03:20:21 -
[40] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits. Just because you call it an exploit, does not make it so. Hitting your MWD, then hitting your cloak, is a tactic that has been around for ages, and is well-established. Only CCP can change my word "tactic" to your "exploit." So long as it is not foolproof, they are unlikely to do that.
Quote:In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
There, I looked the word up for you.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
674
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Posted - 2014.11.27 03:31:09 -
[41] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits. Just because you call it an exploit, does not make it so. Hitting your MWD, then hitting your cloak, is a tactic that has been around for ages, and is well-established. Only CCP can change my word "tactic" to your "exploit." So long as it is not foolproof, they are unlikely to do that. Quote:In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. There, I looked the word up for you.
OH GOD, EVERYONE LIVING IN WH'S WITH A POS ARE EXPLOITING! ALERT THEM QUICK BEFORE CCP BANS THEM!
CCP has gotten all kinds of stuff they didn't intend that are perfectly fine by their rules. Us players that vastly outnumber devs will always find ways to do things that the dev's didn't intend.
Nothing is an exploit unless it violates the EULA, or CCP defines it as an exploit. MWD+cloak? Nope, not an exploit, but also not intended. Webbing allies into warp? No, not intended. Living in WH's? Not intended. Any of them exploits? Nyet.
Oh and remember jet can mining? Not intended. Using rr + drones to pull room aggro? Not intended.
There's all kinds of stuff CCP didn't see coming that is not an exploit. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
643
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Posted - 2014.11.27 03:31:59 -
[42] - Quote
Eve is a sandbox. They give us the tools, we run with them. By your definition, people living in WH's is arguably an exploit. The developers never intended that. Even by your definition, you have not established that cloak/MWD mechanics are not working as intended. We would need a citation to establish that as a fact.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 03:52:37 -
[43] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Eve is a sandbox. They give us the tools, we run with them. By your definition, people living in WH's is arguably an exploit. The developers never intended that. Even by your definition, you have not established that cloak/MWD mechanics are not working as intended. We would need a citation to establish that as a fact.
Your turn to look something up.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1999
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Posted - 2014.11.27 04:20:04 -
[44] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Quote:In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. There, I looked the word up for you. CCP defines exploiting differently in EVE Online because they want us players to find new ways to play the game. They have chosen to not consider your common insta-warp techniques to be exploits, and usually will take the same stance with anything you can easily accomplish in-game regardless of how underhanded a technique it may be, or how effective it is on the unsuspecting. They just don't want to punish players for emergent gameplay.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Jurico Elemenohpe
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2014.11.27 05:48:08 -
[45] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.
And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality. The tank doesn't buy you any time, a ship scan and a calculation later the right number of ships are waiting. However, you can fly a ship without modules if you have a good scout. I moved into a system that was apparently full of reds months ago. Then it was mostly blue but people would hide in dock and change systems. Now I am part of getting us more organised. We undock if we know we will wipe the invaders out. It is a death trap. No good fights, no easy kills. Almost a certainty that you will either die to us or to another fleet that will lock you into the system. Tell me again about victim mentalities. Doesn't buy you any time? 120k EHP requires 11 Tornadoes. They cost about 100m each and people aren't going to throw 1.1bn at your 400m ship. Catalysts on the other hand, this wouldn't affect. They have 1.8s(?) cycle time anyway, so where does that leave freighters? Still dying, because the anti-gank logi is terrible. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 06:05:50 -
[46] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:CCP defines exploiting differently in EVE Online because they want us players to find new ways to play the game. They have chosen to not consider your common insta-warp techniques to be exploits, and usually will take the same stance with anything you can easily accomplish in-game regardless of how underhanded a technique it may be, or how effective it is on the unsuspecting. They just don't want to punish players for emergent gameplay.
So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon?
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
676
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Posted - 2014.11.27 06:28:39 -
[47] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon?
Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.
Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
401
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Posted - 2014.11.27 06:50:32 -
[48] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon? How many people have been banned because they were flying Tengus? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 06:55:21 -
[49] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:How many people have been banned because they were flying Tengus?
How many people were banned for using the MWD/ Cloak trick?
This is getting daft. You shouldn't need to stand on your head and juggle balls to chew bubble gum.
Now back to alpha delay on ALL ships.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index Legion of Immortal Corporations
37
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Posted - 2014.11.27 07:16:42 -
[50] - Quote
need to survive a gank? roll with an escort armada of griffins. |
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
401
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Posted - 2014.11.27 08:21:10 -
[51] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:How many people were banned for using the MWD/ Cloak trick? None. How many people have been banned for fitting large faction neuts on their Curses? I bet the answer is the same.
Now: How many people have been banned for collecting their own bounties by filling their cargoholds with value-inflated items? How many people have been banned for using infinite tracking guns? How many people have been banned for POS reactor duping?
The moral? Actual exploits result in actual bans. Imaginary exploits result in shiptoasting. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2001
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Posted - 2014.11.27 08:40:58 -
[52] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.
Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank. Tengus may or may not be slightly more overpowered than other strategic cruisers, but the fact remains that strategic cruisers are retardedly overpowered.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
676
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Posted - 2014.11.27 08:56:21 -
[53] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Anhenka wrote:Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.
Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank. Tengus may or may not be slightly more overpowered than other strategic cruisers, but the fact remains that strategic cruisers are retardedly overpowered.
And maybe when we get to a point where the only subcap that doesn't get completely wiped or crippled out by a well timed bomb wave are sig tanking t3's and double plated trimarked BS's, we can start considering nerfing t3's.
Do you see cruiser doctrines? No. How about BC? Nope. How about shield BS? Very rarely.
The only viable fleet concepts for large scale fighting are those that are extremely difficult to land bombs on due to how they are flown (Slippery Petes), and those that don't die or drop to low fractions of their EHP with one volley of bombs and die in two (Armor t3's, some rare Armor HAC's, and heavily buffered BS's.
So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
530
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Posted - 2014.11.27 09:04:02 -
[54] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:[quote=Reaver Glitterstim] So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.
This delay would help counter them somewhat.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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Jurico Elemenohpe
14th Legion The Bloc
21
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Posted - 2014.11.27 11:15:21 -
[55] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Anhenka wrote:[quote=Reaver Glitterstim] So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones. This delay would help counter them somewhat. No, no they wouldn't. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you want to happen, then it's not going to affect anything except frigate battles. Bombs are all launched in 1 wave, sometimes multiple waves. Yes, multiple bombs are launched outside a 1.5s timeframe but they're not by 1 ship. And then they has a 10m (?) reactivation delay. Far outside your 1.5s delay. And a large majority of guns have >1.5s cycle time, except smalls (I think), so how will this affect anything except those battles with people with <1.5s cycle time on their weapons? People die to bomber fleets because 6.4-8k*7(?) damage applied in a few seconds, people die (to bombs) because it's alpha. Unless what you mean is a 1.5s delay before attacks. Which is pretty unfair to everyone except bombers, because they see the people exiting warp, which gives them time to start aligning. If they don't warp in time, sucks to be them. And in the case of freighter ganks, this is completely useless, because the freighters get bumped. All this means is that the logi have time to lock them. But what's the point of that? I've never seen more than 2-3 freighters on a single gate in Uedama, and the logi shouldn't have a problem locking all of them, so they can respond instantly anyway. What does this change, at all? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
531
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Posted - 2014.11.27 11:26:08 -
[56] - Quote
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Anhenka wrote:[quote=Reaver Glitterstim] So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones. This delay would help counter them somewhat. No, no they wouldn't. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you want to happen, then it's not going to affect anything except frigate battles. Bombs are all launched in 1 wave, sometimes multiple waves. Yes, multiple bombs are launched outside a 1.5s timeframe but they're not by 1 ship. And then they has a 10m (?) reactivation delay. Far outside your 1.5s delay. And a large majority of guns have >1.5s cycle time, except smalls (I think), so how will this affect anything except those battles with people with <1.5s cycle time on their weapons? People die to bomber fleets because 6.4-8k*7(?) damage applied in a few seconds, people die (to bombs) because it's alpha. Unless what you mean is a 1.5s delay before attacks. Which is pretty unfair to everyone except bombers, because they see the people exiting warp, which gives them time to start aligning. If they don't warp in time, sucks to be them. And in the case of freighter ganks, this is completely useless, because the freighters get bumped. All this means is that the logi have time to lock them. But what's the point of that? I've never seen more than 2-3 freighters on a single gate in Uedama, and the logi shouldn't have a problem locking all of them, so they can respond instantly anyway. What does this change, at all?
Bombs hit targets. No matter how much damage is done, it only does 55% of eHP. Pretend logi have everyone locked up in the gang. They have 1.5 seconds to start repping that gang. Now wave of bombs from squad 2 hits. Another 55% of total eHP is taken off. If any ships have less than 56% eHP they die. There is no delay now. A timer starts counting down before you have alpha protection again. Volley 2,3 and so forth keep coming
The other option I suggested is that logi can extend tank on ships, give them a temporary boost to help absorb the alpha.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Bouncing on the diving board.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14027
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Posted - 2014.11.27 11:31:25 -
[57] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Do you see cruiser doctrines?
FYF would like a word.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2001
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Posted - 2014.11.27 21:01:42 -
[58] - Quote
Anhenka / Reaver Glitterstim Do you see cruiser doctrines? Yep. How about BC? Very yep.
So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones. Bomber nerfs already incoming, if they haven't landed on grid yet.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
77
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Posted - 2014.11.28 06:14:33 -
[59] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on? Scouting.
If you see any trouble you warp your hauler 500km off the inbound gate, cloak her up and wait out the bads. After enough time a different goof will take the pain and then you pass through.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Jenshae Chiroptera
532
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:56:32 -
[60] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on? Scouting.
Already doing that. It is so tedious and painful moving this brick in mud and it is fitted for speed.
Ideas & stuff
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims on a golden gate plate.
Status: Tumbling off the diving board.
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