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Herateis
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.11.24 06:31:24 -
[1] - Quote
I'm trying to figure out if there's some complex reasoning going on behind the scenes. If a frig is going 2000 m/s, and the explosion velocity is 170 m/s, doesn't that basically mean it's doing almost no damage, since the frig is actually outrunning the expansion of the explosion by more than 10 times?
It seems like it would make more sense if a missile exploded at 500 m/s or 2000 m/s or something. How does the explosion velocity determine damage?
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missiles#Damage_Calculation
Quote:The important factor in this scenario is the speed of the target ship. When a missile hits a target, the speed of the target is compared to the Explosion Velocity of the missile. For example, if when a Scourge Heavy Missile - which has a base Explosion Velocity of 81m/s - is fired, the Explosion Velocity is much lower than the target's speed, then damage is significantly reduced as the target is outrunning most of the missile's damage.
So will this mean shooting an 81m/s missile at a battlecruiser does half damage if the cruiser goes 160m/s? It seems clear to point that shooting a frigate would be worthless, but then what about frigate missiles which shoot at 170m/s? That's way below an AB frig of 1000m/s, and completely off the grid of some frigate going 3-4 km/s, even if the missile gets velocity bonuses from rigs or ship which allow the missile to catch up to that fast frig.
How can that missile still be doing damage? Are all missiles really doing like 10% damage if the target isn't webbed to hell and back? It's not intuitive to understand as if the explosion velocity was in the 1000's range and compared strictly to target speed like this thing shows. http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/knof/eve_missiles.swf
I'm confused about how such slow explosion velocity scales to damage, and if boosting explosion velocity helps damage at all when it's already so different from ship speeds. |
Trevor Dalech
Adeptus Assassinorum Silent Eviction
59
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Posted - 2014.11.24 07:58:07 -
[2] - Quote
I suspect that 170m/s is the base explosion velocity of the missile. This can be increased with skills (I think, no time to look it up) rigs and implants, so in practice it'll be higher. After that, yes, webbing (and target painting) your target will increase your damage even further.
So it's pretty rare for your missiles to do full damage, however, in contrast to guns/lasers, missiles never miss. Neither weapon system will ever do it's full "on paper" dps in any practical situation. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
570
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Posted - 2014.11.24 10:04:34 -
[3] - Quote
Missile damage application is dependent on two factors: missile explosion radius and explosion velocity. The guide you linked has interactive sliders to play with them. The base damage is also increased when missile size increases. The same applies differently to large guns vs. small ships. If a small ship is flying straight towards your gun boat at it's optimal, you are going to drop it in a single shot whereas missiles require the target to slow down (e.g. with webs) or get an increased signature (target painters). Webs and painters will also help with turrets but missiles cannot fully miss as long as the target cannot outrun your missile. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
210
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Posted - 2014.11.24 10:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
The formula for speed is not a simple ratio:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage
You can play with it a bit. Yes it does mean that missiles don't do full damage. But its not zero either.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Herateis
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.11.24 10:30:54 -
[5] - Quote
That makes sense but I don't expect the bonuses from skills to boost missile explosion velocity by 10,000% to compare with the speed of frigs. I just worked it out in EFT and a light missile only goes from 170 to 255 m/s with all skills to five.. explosion velocity can't have a 1 to 1 ratio or even close with enemy ships it seems like, because it'd do 50% damage if a ship moved 500 m/s, which is pretty close to frigs without AB, let alone MWD.
The stat doesn't make sense... |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
210
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Posted - 2014.11.24 12:35:43 -
[6] - Quote
You learn, read and try things.
First of all lots of players talk about DPS of their fits. It is sort of irrelevant. Auto cannons for example are almost always engaging in falloff range, not optimal, so that halves the DPS right off the bat. Damage application is often more important. So replacing a gyro with a tracking enhancer on a auto cannon ship is often a good idea if you have guns with poor tracking.
Second of all you don't need these high paper DPS figures to win in combat. Check out the burst tank on most frigates. It is pretty low. Or buffer tanked ones. Even bigger ships the tank is not super high (we are not talking about mauraders here right). You don't need your ships to be pumping out 500DPS to be combat effective.
Note that lower down the page I linked to, velocity has no effect with missiles till the target is moving at least 3x explosion velocity.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Bagatur I
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2014.11.24 14:47:23 -
[7] - Quote
Herateis wrote:
How come it has to be so complicated though? I saw your post after I posted but its like why?? How can I know I'm doing full damage when I load on a ship module or rig and not wasting space?
It is complicated because it is EVE If you notice, the part where velocity matters also has radii ratio, and most probably it will be quite in your favor. There are also rigs (rigor catalysts) and modules (target painters) which can help even further. There are rigs (flare catalysts) and modules (webs) to help with velocity differences. On top of that, that third part is to the power of ln(drf)/ln(5.5). This power is always less than 1, and if your velocity ratio is less than 1 also, than taken to this power it will increase. E.g., that third component is 0.1 (for very fast moving frigate with no sig radius or velocity counter-measures), and you use simple light missiles with drf of 2.8, then 0.1^(ln(2.8)/ln(5.5)=0.25. That is 150% more than just velocity ratio.
How can you know? From experience. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
722
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:26:29 -
[8] - Quote
It's a thing you get a feel for after a while. In general, a frigate going 2000+ m/s is using a microwarpdrive, which increases their signature radius by 500%. This approximately cancels the reduction in damage from their speed, as velocity is also increased by 500%. The two ratios (sig radius over explosion radius and explosion velocity over target velocity) are directly multiplied, so theoretically there is no net effect.
In practice, the ship probably won't reach it's top speed, either because it is accelerating or turning in orbit. In this case, you will deal slightly increased damage. Volleys that hit just as the target activates their microwarp will hit hard, because they have increased their sig radius but have not yet accelerated to their top speed.
You don't need to know all the details. Start with the fact that frigate sized missiles are designed to apply well to frigates, cruiser sized are designed to apply well to cruisers, etc. Anything smaller and you will have reduced damage naturally. Keep in mind that reducing the speed of the target will always increase your damage, as will increasing their sig radius.
If you use a tool like EFT or pyfa you can play with the DPS graphs to see your damage at different target speeds, with and without microwarpdrive active.
www.ensignyooch.wordpress.com
New player with questions? Just want to chat? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4366
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:35:46 -
[9] - Quote
Herateis wrote:How come it has to be so complicated though? I saw your post after I posted but its like why?? How can I know I'm doing full damage when I load on a ship module or rig and not wasting space? Trial and error. EFT. Pyfa.
You can even experiment for free on the test server (everything costs 100 ISK there, and insurance fraud = self-destructing after insuring your biggest ship, is the best way to earn ISK there).
Typically you will carry at least two types of missiles: "fury" for damage, and "precision" for ships smaller than your own ship. |
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