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Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.25 02:53:40 -
[1] - Quote
Why can't we fly in a Formation? We need the ability to Warp in a formation. Fleet formations.
With WASD flying added in December, this is the next step to change EvE.
To get more strategy and Less Blob fleet tactics.
(this is a 2ed idea added in)
couldn't we then eventually head toward having Objects and Ships block shots?
How does something thats shot straight at you fly around the station and all those Battleships that are in the way?
Wouldn't this counter missiles disadvantages adding a better use to it in this type of situation?
( this would make good WASD flying matter)
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1999
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Posted - 2014.11.25 03:41:15 -
[2] - Quote
you could try the search function (for your other post too).
should tell you why this and ships 'line of fire' mechanics are a bad idea.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
229
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Posted - 2014.11.25 07:46:32 -
[3] - Quote
Roxanne Quall wrote: couldn't we then eventually head toward having Objects and Ships block shots?
This would require a re-wright of the engine as well as a make large fleet fights impossible do to the amount of processes the server would have to run |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
24
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Posted - 2014.11.25 13:27:26 -
[4] - Quote
I like the idea of WASD being used as a semi manual way to control how your ship is positioned in a fleet formation. Considering we spend so much time in fleets not actually fighting, creating beautiful formations could be a good way to kill some time and gaining positional advantage if somebody tries to engage you. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
80
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Posted - 2014.11.25 13:30:27 -
[5] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:I like the idea of WASD being used as a semi manual way to control how your ship is positioned in a fleet formation. Considering we spend so much time in fleets not actually fighting, creating beautiful formations could be a good way to kill some time and gaining positional advantage if somebody tries to engage you.
New Career
Stunt Astronautics. Pristine formation flying for the entertainment of the masses!
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
977
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Posted - 2014.11.25 14:29:32 -
[6] - Quote
ships blocking shots would add a new element to combat... bringing a battleship too a fight with smaller ships might be a thing who knows..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
24
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Posted - 2014.11.25 14:57:31 -
[7] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:ships blocking shots would add a new element to combat... bringing a battleship too a fight with smaller ships might be a thing who knows..
probably a good place to start bringing such a major mechanic into the game would be through testing it on a tournament format first. such as a big fat object in space which you cant shoot through and you have to navigate around it to be able to lock enemy ship again |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
663
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:56:39 -
[8] - Quote
You hear that high pitched squealing sound?
That's the sound of a server in agony as it tries to run LoS checks on every projectile and missile, of every player, or every sentry drone, of every missile in flight, in a smallish fight (Let's say 100 vs 100, one side Ishtar, a mere 700 sources of directional fire)
Oh look it's a BR level fight! There are ten thousand+ players, missiles, and sentry drones floating around the field!
Go little server, you can do it! I believe in you! Believe in me who believes in you!
It ded. |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
209
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Posted - 2014.11.25 22:54:05 -
[9] - Quote
Roxanne Quall wrote:Why can't we fly in a Formation? We need the ability to Warp in a formation. Fleet formations.
With WASD flying added in December, this is the next step to change EvE.
To get more strategy and Less Blob fleet tactics.
(this is a 2ed idea added in)
couldn't we then eventually head toward having Objects and Ships block shots?
How does something thats shot straight at you fly around the station and all those Battleships that are in the way?
Wouldn't this counter missiles disadvantages adding a better use to it in this type of situation?
( this would make good WASD flying matter)
Line of fire won't happen, but I'd like the option of custom fleet formations. Fcs could do proper strategising based around positioning.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2999
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Posted - 2014.11.26 00:14:54 -
[10] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Roxanne Quall wrote:Why can't we fly in a Formation? We need the ability to Warp in a formation. Fleet formations.
With WASD flying added in December, this is the next step to change EvE.
To get more strategy and Less Blob fleet tactics.
(this is a 2ed idea added in)
couldn't we then eventually head toward having Objects and Ships block shots?
How does something thats shot straight at you fly around the station and all those Battleships that are in the way?
Wouldn't this counter missiles disadvantages adding a better use to it in this type of situation?
( this would make good WASD flying matter)
Line of fire won't happen, but I'd like the option of custom fleet formations. Fcs could do proper strategising based around positioning.
They already do. Where your fleet is, where it's going, where your logi are, all in relation to your opponent, all of these things are based on positioning, and they're all important. Plus, they're not automated, they're actual skill by the FCs, anchors, and other crazy people. That's not even thinking about bombers.
But what, exactly, do you people think arranging your ships in a pretty formation would DO in an actual fight? Lower everything to the speed of the slowest ships? Cripple anything on your side that happened to rely on speed/sig tanking? Paint a giant 'BOMB HERE' target on your entire fleet? |
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Brutalis Furia
Hammer and Anvil Industries
13
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:40:22 -
[11] - Quote
Line of Sight for damage won't happen. I wish it would, but the server demand would be...prohibitive. As a visual only, client side calculation, I can see it. I can see it killing some computers, but it's more possible.
As to formations, yes, I can see some arguments for them. Mostly eye candy and RP (a Line formation of ravens launching missiles like in the Origins trailer would just be friggin cool, or a V formation of frigates (also in a trailer).
As to potential benefits, I could see bonuses for different formations based on roles. That V of frigates might indeed slow everyone down to the slowest member, or it could grant equalizing bonuses and penalties so that they meet in the middle, then give a bonus based on the squad booster to that speed based on a new skill, Formations.
The possibilities are almost endless, and we can use our terrestrial battle formations (infantry and vehicular) to select appropriate bonuses based on roles. |
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.11.27 18:40:11 -
[12] - Quote
OK i get line of sight might bog down the servers. Even tho this should be seriously looked at and worked on because EVE needs that badly, you all know it.
Fleet formations would yeah force you to the slowest guy in each formation. and fleets can have many multiple formation in it at the same time. And you could warp the whole fleet in those multiple formations to land in battle in the same formations.
Everyone know the Blobs are stupid. Having specific formations that would have many un-know implications that people would invent within it. And im not Saying EVE decided formations. We should have a editor the FC or anyone really could use to design formations that we can use in fleet.
If we could have DPS behind tanks and logi behind them with just enough space to reach the front but kept back where then opposing fleet has to try and cut in or risk moving a lot closer in to hit them, but they didn't realize you have some heavy short range dps to pick them off when they try to cut in. Etc etc this would have a innumerable amount of things people would come up with. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1441
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Posted - 2014.11.27 18:45:40 -
[13] - Quote
Even without the WASD consideration, blobs didn't get their name by mistake...
It'd be cool to have some way of making a clean and nice formation of your fleet.
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
676
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Posted - 2014.11.27 19:12:37 -
[14] - Quote
Roxanne Quall wrote:
If we could have DPS behind tanks and logi behind them with just enough space to reach the front but kept back where then opposing fleet has to try and cut in or risk moving a lot closer in to hit them, but they didn't realize you have some heavy short range dps to pick them off when they try to cut in. Etc etc this would have a innumerable amount of things people would come up with.
In any Military battle you never see everyone in one big ball, you see groups with tasks and built in ways to have a advantage. It would really make Good FC's shine even more and bad ones flop.
No thanks. I feel absolutely no desire to have my ships line up in shiny formations for the express purpose of lookign good, to the detriment of my fleets combat ability.
As an American, we learned really really early that people who line up all their forces in neat orderly lines, then shoot at each other tend to get bent over by the people who don't feel any need to do such silly shenanigans.
If you are afraid of bombers, order orbit distances large enough that bombers wont hit everyone. If you want everyone in one place, order tight gather on anchor. If you want to split your groups with different shiptypes positioned differently, then split people under two different anchors. But the FC's judgement about who to shoot or when to run, or how much of the fleet will be hit/caught by something is very dependent on people positioning. No FC worth his salt will line everyone up in formation that causes people to be at varying distances to the target, or more vulnerable to being picked off at the edges, or any of the other side effects of lining up in orderly spacing for no reason other than to look good.
P.S. Forget LoS, it's not even a possible consideration. Three dimensional, realtime LoS calculations to/from tens of thousands of sources are a flat up impossibility at the scale EVE plays at. There is no commercially available hardware/software on the planet that can handle it. |
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.11.27 19:17:37 -
[15] - Quote
you see a bunch of Rows? yeah thats not what im talking about. Flight formations aren't in lines. Your thinking old military land tactics. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
676
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Posted - 2014.11.27 19:40:36 -
[16] - Quote
Roxanne Quall wrote:you see a bunch of Rows? yeah thats not what im talking about. Flight formations aren't in lines. Your thinking old military land tactics.
Lines, circles, spheres, dodecahedrons, split groups, three dimensional layers of ******* whatever. Doesn't matter.
If there is a compelling reason to spread out, then there are methods to keep a fleet spread out at a range where a single source of smarties/bombs will not hit the whole fleet.
If you are not worried enough about that, then in 99% of cases, you want your DPS as close to the person calling targets as possible so that ranges to target remain consistent across the whole fleet. And you want your logi free to maneuver keep the main fleet between the enemy and the logi group. Tacklers, ewar, bubblers, scanners, firewalls, all of these also need complete autonomy to be at whatever range to the enemy they need to be at, and would not at all fit into any sort of arranged formation.
Each subgroup tends to have their own FC or subcomander. You think the logi FC is going to be happy if the main FC tries to put his ships into a formation? No, he's going to tell him to go **** himself and let him do his job. Same with Ewar.
And I hope you don't think tacklers are going to be flying in formation....?
P.S: If there's an FC operating with both long range ships and short range dps ships under his direct control, and trying to have his logi assist, both, you need to leave whatever group let him FC and find somewhere different.
TLDR: No, still no. The only use for this would be for making spectacular videos, but the instant you actually wanted to have a large scale fight, it would be thrown to the side like trash. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
3005
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:39:21 -
[17] - Quote
Roxanne Quall wrote:OK i get line of sight might bog down the servers. Even tho this should be seriously looked at and worked on because EVE needs that badly, you all know it.
Fleet formations would have to start out with just the set up before warp and maybe what you pop out on another side of the gate in. So you would have to fly your self to keep formation in any other case. and fleets can have many multiple formation in it at the same time. And you could warp the whole fleet in those multiple formations to land in battle in the same formations.
Obviously people can break the formation and move around but it would at least start the battles in better organizational groups with spefic purposes. Giving FC's more to work with.
Everyone know the Blobs are stupid. Having specific formations that would have many un-know implications that people would invent within it. And im not Saying EVE decided formations. We should have a editor the FC or anyone really could use to design formations that we can use in fleet.
Everyone would have to click something like join formation and it would show you where the FC wants your formation (before battle start optimally of course) I'm almost even thinking the FC would have to have a small window with like a 400Km bubble around himself in wich he could See the formations and there location to each other and the targets that are in sight. I think most FC's would love this ability. Maybe he could click a formation and click ahead where he wanted them and a temp Pined location marker would pop up for just that groups formation telling them where the FC would want them. and when they have reached it, it then go's away.
If we could have DPS behind tanks and logi behind them with just enough space to reach the front but kept back where then opposing fleet has to try and cut in or risk moving a lot closer in to hit them, but they didn't realize you have some heavy short range dps to pick them off when they try to cut in. Etc etc this would have a innumerable amount of things people would come up with.
In any Military battle you never see everyone in one big ball, you see groups with tasks and built in ways to have a advantage. It would really make Good FC's shine even more and bad ones flop.
So, essentially, flying in formation will only be done by a handful of people who don't mind about losing the bonuses their own skills bring to the manoeuvrability of their ships, right?
A battleship fleet does not only contain battleships. You also have logistics, ewar, recons, dictors/hictors, interceptors, anti-support, random bombers, scouts and boosters. Not one of these other roles is going to want to sit in formation with the big, slow battleships, either because that completely prevents them from fulfilling their role, or because they don't have the tank to stand up to the kind of pun ishment the battleships do, and are thus reliant on sig and speed tanking more than the size of thier buffers. Or they're off grid.
Even the BS pilots aren't going to want to move in a predictable formation dictated by the speed of the lowest SP member of the fleet. That's asking for a bomb run, or a well placed dictor or frigate to just chip away at the edges. There is literally no advantage to flying in formation right now, it would only ever be a bad idea.
As for your LOS idea, you DO realise that your formation intended to shield the logi would look much like the balls of ships we use today, right? Thing is, yours would be worse, since you'd be pinning your thin skinned logi in place and simply begging for bombers to come annihilate you, rather than manoeuvring them and the rest of the fleet around as we do today.
I have to ask, have you ever participated in massed fleet PVP? |
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