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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25653
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:08:12 -
[1] - Quote
This is a bit of a stretch, so I need you to get your imagination nice and limber before reading the rest of this suggestion.
Sleepers and Sansha NPCs have pretty good AI in place, and are able to manage DPS and remote assistance better than ever before. I'd like to put that to use, and also proliferate the use of alts to everyone who can run a client on their computer.
What I basically have in mind is subscribed characters being handled by the server, as a member of your fleet. I'll call them NPC alts. It would require a comprehensive input list, with enough functionality to fit and command an NPC alt without needing to open a separate client.
They'll respond to primaries, navigation commands, warps, and also manage remote reps.
You'd still need to open individual clients for things like skill management and market. But in all roles out in space, NPC alts will function as AI under your command.
Headshotting would be a thing, and it would require a swap between active characters, to avoid a situation where NPC alts are without command and control. For a related reason, fleets would need to be modular, so that several players with NPC alts of their own can share control of their characters according to the fleet leadership tree.
The basic premise is that if a player has a character actively subscribed, let them field it. One per account by default, more if they have paid an additional PLEX for multiple character training.
This is another thing that would allow ultra thin clients and a single instance of a client on a mobile device, that is capable of fleeting multiple ships effectively.
If the Oculus RIft and other HMDs are going to work with EVE, players need to be as effective with one, as they are from a computer with conventional monitors.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
643
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:01:56 -
[2] - Quote
I will be very surprised if this isn't a "thing" before too long. Of course it makes sense from a monetary perspective, but the amount of forum rage will be obscene.
As long as it was coupled with vast improvements to PVE, I think it could remain balanced.
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Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96220
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:02:49 -
[3] - Quote
EVE: RTS.....
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25657
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:05:02 -
[4] - Quote
It's the best hope CCP has of balance. absolutely. If they control the AI, it will be very effective.
It will also be a first for video games. The trailers that would advertise commanding a small army makes me tingle all over.
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
132
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:07:54 -
[5] - Quote
so you want isboxer built into the game?
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25659
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:10:25 -
[6] - Quote
I want the game to have 3 modes of play for a character.
1. you pilot one ship manually 2. you pilot several ships manually 3. you pilot one ship manually, several others under AI control.
I want EVE playable on a HMD like the Rift. I want EVE playable on a mobile device like a tablet or even a phone, which have 1080p resolution now. my iPhone 6 plus should arrive in a week, it does 1080p.
EVE needs to go somewhere. playing just one ship is not going to cut it to stay competitive. every game does that.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
994
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 07:03:01 -
[7] - Quote
You want more NPC-like control instead of player control? CCP is just about to half-way removed automation software from the game in order to require more real player activity and not empty husks following orders from 1 overlord, and already you want it back?
Moreover, have you tried playing EVE or any serious game on a 6" device? Tried to read the overview, market, scanner, or click on something in the overview, market, in space, other window via right-click menu, radial menu or otherwise? How does handling the HUD work, fiddling with the modules with your fingers, overheating with your fingers, reading your stats? 1080p on 6" is by no means comparable to 1080p on 24" screens, unless you use magnifying glasses or things like the Rift. And then what? How do you do all the stuff I described above? Maneuvering your ship might still be possible with head movements as we now have WASD, but what about the way more important rest? Eye tracking? What else do you want to with your eyes? You already have to keep them on your enemy. I am very pessimistic about that you can control your ship, ship's modules and stats and lock, select, unlock, manage targets and manage windows with your eyes all at once. Neural interface? I guess we need a 3rd decade for that. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25659
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 07:31:21 -
[8] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:You want more NPC-like control instead of player control? CCP is just about to half-way removed automation software from the game in order to require more real player activity and not empty husks following orders from 1 overlord, and already you want it back? yes.
Rivr Luzade wrote:Moreover, have you tried playing EVE or any serious game on a 6" device? Tried to read the overview, market, scanner, or click on something in the overview, market, in space, other window via right-click menu, radial menu or otherwise? How does handling the HUD work, fiddling with the modules with your fingers, overheating with your fingers, reading your stats? yes, I have played EVE on a touch screen on several occasions, on several devices.
Rivr Luzade wrote:1080p on 6" is by no means comparable to 1080p on 24" screens, unless you use magnifying glasses or things like the Rift. And then what? How do you do all the stuff I described above? Maneuvering your ship might still be possible with head movements as we now have WASD, but what about the way more important rest? Eye tracking? What else do you want to with your eyes? You already have to keep them on your enemy. I am very pessimistic about that you can control your ship, ship's modules and stats and lock, select, unlock, manage targets and manage windows with your eyes all at once. Neural interface? I guess we need a 3rd decade for that. the UI also needs an update, and I have some suggestions for CCP when they release their version on SISI in UI updates part II. If they asked earlier, for some serious UI suggestions, I would have offered mine then. But they want to be secretive and do things the hard way.
Rivr Luzade wrote:Rain wrote:EVE needs to go somewhere. playing just one ship is not going to cut it to stay competitive. every game does that. Under your 3rd vision, you don't control more than 1 ship; the AI does. And we all know how much EVE players like AI-like controls of player ships. Not to mention the complaints if one of the AI-controlled ships does not do what the player had in mind. Can you imagine your AI-controlled exhumer swarm stop mining because it found a suitable target for its drones and is now chasing a ceptor through the belt? Or your AI-controlled Logi, who's repping your CS because it receives constantly 100 damage from a drone, while other, in the eyes of the AI less important ships like a DPS HAC without Ewar, dies? I don't mine, so no. I'd imagine you could tell your mining ship to act like a mining ship.
you are unimaginative and a hothead. you've had far better criticisms of my ideas in the past. thanks for the laugh.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
995
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Posted - 2014.11.26 08:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
How about you answer my questions a little bit more comprehensively instead of accusing people of lack of imagination? Although, the "yes" to my introduction question is answer enough to me that you don't want more player activity and just an easy way to control your alt army.
As for the UI changes: You are aware of the fact that CCP is still asking for comments, suggestions, opinions. As far as the forum search for this Rain goes, you have not posted even once in that thread. You might want to do that so that CCP can heed or at least obtain some inspiration from your undoubtedly very well thought out, laid out and comprehensive suggestions. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25659
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 08:28:38 -
[10] - Quote
That feedback thread is basically "look at what we're going to implement," after-the-fact. I'm not slaving away on a set of graphics for 10+ hours when they never bothered to ask beforehand, for player input on what they need and would like the UI to do.
As for the part II of the UI, i'm a little miffed about what they did in part I to feel like going out of my way to help them out right now. Not my loss.
My curt answer of "yes" was all I could find as a response to your first paragraph, which restated the premise of my suggestion. You have to back up a bit to understand why I'd make this suggestion at all. The main idea behind it is "proliferation." ISBoxer was an advantage that CCP has decided to do away with. However, they are not saying players are not allowed to have more than 1 account.
so.
If -everyone- has access to the same tools for their clients, there's no advantage, and it's back to a simple matter of having more accounts, which is something CCP promotes through things like Power of 2.
Do you care to guess how much more successful EVE is, as a result of players who have multiple accounts? 10%? 20%? 30%?
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25659
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Posted - 2014.11.26 09:37:06 -
[11] - Quote
The huge, glaring truth is players enjoy this game using multiple characters. They enjoy it so much they're willing to satisfy additional subscriptions. In terms of player behaviors that you could witness in a video game, this is -the strongest- type of positive feedback. The prudent move for a game developer in this situation is -enable- the type of gameplay players want, to make the game more successful.
Multiboxing has been a thing for the better part of a decade, and the idea of "one character, one player" is not sacred. Whether you want to count the number of players with multiple accounts, or the number of accounts involved in multiboxing, the data is the same: players want the game to do this thing, they want to play the game this way.
This suggestion is how EVE can be streamlined to only require one client install at the minimum.
It would also make EVE more capable on new computing platforms beyond the desk-bound computer.
Eve has plans to stick around for another ten years. In its current form, I don't doubt it will make it. But if EVE wants to keep up with the advances in technology that will happen in the meantime, while keeping players who want to use multiple accounts, the client needs more interplay.
The Rift uses a USB and video connection. Tablets are already equipped with those outputs, with the computing power to run the Rift. Please post to confirm you understand the implications for gaming this has, and you acknowledge that gaming will move outside the household... long before 2024.
The EVE client needs to be capable of more than just a prettier UI.
I'll tell you a secret. I'm in school for art, my plans are to become a game developer myself. I am grateful for this customer experience as an EVE player. I will not make the mistake of expecting my customers to sit at home, and I will not limit the experiences I build to archaic display methods like conventional screens.
I wouldn't say EVE is a failure, but it is very slow to make improvements and acknowledge trends and technology. I consider it an invaluable part of my game development education.
Keep your eyes peeled for my UI suggestion after the Sisi announcement. It's going to be sick, and chances are a lot of people won't get it.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
995
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 10:17:53 -
[12] - Quote
I am running several TQ clients from one installation. I don't know what you are talking about.
--
The only tablets I know out of the head with USB and Video out/ins are Surfaces. No ipad has USB/video ports unless you buy ridiculously overpriced adapters. No current android tablet has video out/ins, and only micro USB if you are lucky. So, how do you want to connect the Rift? For which platform do you want to develop the EVE client? iOS? I don't want to use an Apple device, and EVE would full the entire storage of that device. Android? I don't want to use an android device and the storage would be filled as well. The unified Windows 10+? EVE already works there. And you want that CCP submits itself to the rules of a device vendor when it comes to CCP's software, that the device vendor can scrutinize and arbitrarily demand changes and alterations to CCP's software so that it can be sold in the device vendor's app store? And what about the OS software and the fun with carriers and updates to it? We all know very well how eager carriers are to roll out software updates to devices. Do you want to imply that I should not be able to play EVE when my carrier decides that they don't like Android 5.1 and want to wait till Android 6.5 till they roll out the software for the device I use? Or the other way around: What about those who use Android 6, but EVE is only running without problems (good joke, I know) on Android 5.x. Popular Mobile OS are a mess and will continue to stay a mess, and for my understanding it is a waste of time to develop for that on a scale that EVE requires.
Sounds very much like the right thing to do.
--
With regards to your wish for more automation without player activity: I take it that you do realize that you speak against everything players loath on ISBoxer and the likes? EVE player want more real player activity, more real players in space. Not more NPC control and not more automation of player activities. Players, moreover, already have plenty access to multiboxing. It requires some training and some degree of management capabilities, especially now that automation of processes via software is prohibited. Which in turn means that players, who want to use multiple accounts need to work for that goal, need to learn to manage their accounts and also need to realize that having 10 accounts does not help to be better and instead need to limit the number to a reasonable count. Introducing ingame automation mechanics to hand over control of characters to NPCs does nothing to help to that end.
I wonder what the rest of the community thinks about that. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25659
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 10:34:28 -
[13] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:I am running several TQ clients from one installation. I don't know what you are talking about.
The only tablets I know out of the head with USB and Video out/ins are Surfaces. No ipad has USB/video ports unless you buy ridiculously overpriced adapters. No current android tablet has video out/ins, and only micro USB if you are lucky. So, how do you want to connect the Rift? For which platform do you want to develop the EVE client? iOS? I don't want to use an Apple device, and EVE would full the entire storage of that device. Android? I don't want to use an android device and the storage would be filled as well. The unified Windows 10+? EVE already works there. And you want that CCP submits itself to the rules of a device vendor when it comes to CCP's software, that the device vendor can scrutinize and arbitrarily demand changes and alterations to CCP's software so that it can be sold in the device vendor's app store? And what about the OS software and the fun with carriers and updates to it? We all know very well how eager carriers are to roll out software updates to devices. Do you want to imply that I should not be able to play EVE when my carrier decides that they don't like Android 5.1 and want to wait till Android 6.5 till they roll out the software for the device I use? Or the other way around: What about those who use Android 6, but EVE is only running without problems (good joke, I know) on Android 5.x. Popular Mobile OS are a mess and will continue to stay a mess, and for my understanding it is a waste of time to develop for that on a scale that EVE requires.
Sounds very much like the right thing to do. I'm talking about managing more than one character, with just one client. This allows the use of one screen for multiple characters, with the computational load of the AI on the server-side.
The specific platform is not a critical detail, and maintaining software needs to happen no matter what platform is used. I will say that I don't have much hope for apple, their focus has not been peripherals, and this also means their products are not the greatest ones for gaming.
The time frame is not just right now, but also in the future. Currently yes, my first choices would include something windows-based, such as the Surface, and also something like the Lenovo Yoga Pro 3.
Rivr Luzade wrote:With regards to your wish for more automation without player activity: I take it that you do realize that you speak against everything players loath on ISBoxer and the likes? EVE player want more real player activity, more real players in space. Not more NPC control and not more automation of player activities. Players, moreover, already have plenty access to multiboxing. It requires some training and some degree of management capabilities, especially now that automation of processes via software is prohibited. Which in turn means that players, who want to use multiple accounts need to work for that goal, need to learn to manage their accounts and also need to realize that having 10 accounts does not help to be better and instead need to limit the number to a reasonable count. Introducing ingame automation mechanics to hand over control of characters to NPCs does nothing to help to that end.
I wonder what the rest of the community thinks about that. Multiboxers have every intention of using their characters... the rest of the community who multiboxes would probably confirm: the whole point of having multiple characters is to put them to use.
For EVE to move with technology while also enjoying multiple accounts per player, there has to be command and control from one instance of the client.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
995
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Posted - 2014.11.26 10:45:52 -
[14] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:For EVE to move with technology while also enjoying multiple accounts per player, there has to be command and control from one instance of the client. On that I agree. There c/should be better ways to manage more than 1 running client. However, I don't think that automation or handing over player tasks and responsibilities to NPC or AI in general is the way to go.
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TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
24
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:10:35 -
[15] - Quote
Its basically turning your alts into drones, i like the idea. And yes its a bit out there, but ccp has nothing to lose because its always good if people have multiple accounts (especially now that the use of isboxer is nerfed).
Also i believe this idea is among many other similar ideas and they all have same sort of theme and that is the fact that the game is way way way to reliant on talented players organizing fleets together, i believe its a big mistake if ccp doesnt take action on this issue, you need a balance between giving players power to organize their own daily pvp fleets and you also need to support the pvp organizers on a software level (supporting the bad FC's basically). In other words pvp organizers are in very high demand on a daily basis and this is a direct result of ccp not giving love to the game mechanics which support the pvp organizers in terms of rallying people together "for the next fight" and the next fight, and the next |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
651
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:13:59 -
[16] - Quote
Sounds like taking several steps back after having finally taken a positive step forward to me.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1339
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:20:27 -
[17] - Quote
The last time I saw this suggestion it got flamed to death.
Guess it depends on who posted it after all. xD
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance.
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Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
1227
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:22:57 -
[18] - Quote
tldr; bbaaawwww give me back isboxer pls.
Come play Crink, over 230 billion in prizes paid out already!
Join the channel 'crink' in game or visit crink.corelicorp.net to play.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
788
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have no issue with people being allowed to field their 2 or 3 chars at once as long as it is by multiboxing since that's a skill in itself. Via isboxer is a nope though and I was happy with the announcement that its being curtailed. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
336
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:47:51 -
[20] - Quote
Once the finest troll we had. Please bow your heads and observe a minute silence.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
2977
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:41:21 -
[21] - Quote
Rain,
This is an incredible idea. I like it very much. It makes a lot of sense for EVE to evolve its gameplay this way.
People will eat it up.
Also, Jovian snipe in your thread. Behold.
Call me Joe.
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
2977
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:43:55 -
[22] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote:so you want isboxer built into the game?
Obviously you've never used drones.
Call me Joe.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4422
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Posted - 2014.11.26 14:13:10 -
[23] - Quote
Supported.
I created a similar idea as a response to the ban isboxer threads, but never gave it a thread of it's own. I am a lousy spokesperson, as I have trouble communicating my ideas to others.
Link here
Give everyone the ability to multibox.
It can be server side or client side, the difference would not be significant. (Server side could be more practical, as client side would scale limited by hardware purchased by real life money, creating an indirect form of pay-to-win from one viewpoint)
You would have the accounts linked to each other through the account management tool. It would be a violation of the eula to transfer accounts to another player on this level, as that would be account sharing.
The player themselves is the limiting factor in this.
The player would log into the master account, and have two options regarding each slave account. Direct control, (swap into the slave account directly, for first person traditional play). Indirect control, which would be logging that account in as a menu driven set of choices, while maintaining control from the master account in direct mode. This might resemble a fleet screen UI, more than anything else.
Ship fittings, inventory control beyond basic, all of these would require direct control.
Group actions, would be possible through Indirect control.
EVE should be all inclusive, as software goes, concerning options for play.
I would call it Legion.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96279
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:26:27 -
[24] - Quote
Seriously EvE: RTS needs to happen and this is the way to do it. CCP needs to embrace their multiboxing players and help them out as much as they are willing to do as the current client is absolutely ****** for multiboxing.
It would be the only "RTS" with 'meaningful' losses when you messed up. CCP would finally be the first and innovative in something.
Unlock all the clothes || My Fanclub
Harmless - Penniless - Aimless
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
479
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:35:54 -
[25] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:Seriously EvE: RTS needs to happen and this is the way to do it. CCP needs to embrace their multiboxing players and help them out as much as they are willing to do as the current client is absolutely ****** for multiboxing.
It would be the only "RTS" with 'meaningful' losses when you messed up. CCP would finally be the first and innovative in something.
What does RTS mean?
signature
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4423
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:37:58 -
[26] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Seriously EvE: RTS needs to happen and this is the way to do it. CCP needs to embrace their multiboxing players and help them out as much as they are willing to do as the current client is absolutely ****** for multiboxing.
It would be the only "RTS" with 'meaningful' losses when you messed up. CCP would finally be the first and innovative in something. What does RTS mean? Real Time Strategy Popular term for describing star craft and similar games, all the way back to the original warcraft and command & conquer series.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
479
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:38:01 -
[27] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:The huge, glaring truth is players enjoy this game using multiple characters. They enjoy it so much they're willing to satisfy additional subscriptions. In terms of player behaviors that you could witness in a video game, this is -the strongest- type of positive feedback. The prudent move for a game developer in this situation is -enable- the type of gameplay players want, to make the game more successful. -poop-
Elaborate!
signature
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Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96282
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:39:20 -
[28] - Quote
RTS= Real time strategy.
That's basically what the proposal is in a way.
Unlock all the clothes || My Fanclub
Harmless - Penniless - Aimless
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
479
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:40:17 -
[29] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:elitatwo wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Seriously EvE: RTS needs to happen and this is the way to do it. CCP needs to embrace their multiboxing players and help them out as much as they are willing to do as the current client is absolutely ****** for multiboxing.
It would be the only "RTS" with 'meaningful' losses when you messed up. CCP would finally be the first and innovative in something. What does RTS mean? Real Time Strategy Popular term for describing star craft and similar games, all the way back to the original warcraft and command & conquer series.
Thanks dear!
I have heard the term before but I wasn't sure what it meant in EVE. I did however played the ones you mentioned and Supreme Commander, also a very good one, not the second but the first one rocks
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
479
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Posted - 2014.11.26 15:41:15 -
[30] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:RTS= Real time strategy.
That's basically what the proposal is in a way.
Thank you too!
Please tell your alliance buddy to not bring this up again.
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