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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 04:34:49 -
[1] - Quote
Amarr cruisers are gimped.
My Crucifier has the same amount of mid-slots as my Arbitrator.
My Executioner has the same amount of mid-slots as my Omen or my Maller.
Amarr is the only race with this deficiency.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Persifonne
Monkey Demons Of Narnia
38
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Posted - 2014.11.29 05:04:45 -
[2] - Quote
Armor tank baddie. Also arbitrtor is a badass cruiser. 1 med neut rest small neuts td scram big buffer and it can destroy anything frig-bs. Its sick. You need meds. Yarrrrbitrator best amarr cruiser and we demand a navy issue yarbi. L2cruise. YOLO! |
Persifonne
Monkey Demons Of Narnia
38
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Posted - 2014.11.29 05:05:57 -
[3] - Quote
But yeah wtf you need mids for? Prop, point, web and a utility one. Wtf you need more mids for ever??? |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 05:19:59 -
[4] - Quote
The Arbitrator is a badass cruiser yet the Crucifier is actually better than the Arbitrator at their intended role (weapon disruption).
Ok so what does all of your BS post have to do with the fact that Amarr cruisers are gimped ?
We don't need mid slots you say ?
Well explain why the Thorax, Vexor, Rupture and Stabber, all arguably armor tanking ships, have 4 mid slots, while the Omen and Maller are sitting ducks with 3 mid slots.
Another problem that doesn't help, is the laser turret capacitor use bonus. The thorax, for instance, not only has 4 midslots, but a tracking bonus on top of all that, while the Omen is stuck with 3 mid slots and crapacitor... ahem, I mean a capacitor bonus for its lasers.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
71
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Posted - 2014.11.29 11:05:01 -
[5] - Quote
Biggest problem I see with amarr cruisers is that the Maller and Omen are too much alike. I don't like the capacitor gun bonus on the omen and would rather have it get a bigger capacitor and this bonus replaced with something cooler.
Or maybe have one turned into a drone boat like the Dragoon or Prophecy, but there is already the Arbitrator that isn't really a combat ship and not really an Ewar ship.
Amarr lineup need to be completely rewamped imo. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
71
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Posted - 2014.11.29 11:09:04 -
[6] - Quote
Odithia wrote:Biggest problem I see with amarr cruisers is that the Maller and Omen are too much alike. I don't like the capacitor gun bonus on the omen and would rather have it get a bigger capacitor and this bonus replaced with something cooler.
Or maybe have one turned into a drone boat like the Dragoon or Prophecy, but there is already the Arbitrator that isn't really a combat ship and not really an Ewar ship.
Amarr lineup need to be completely rewamped imo.
Ares Desideratus wrote:Another problem that doesn't help, is the laser turret capacitor use bonus. The thorax, for instance, not only has 4 midslots, but a tracking bonus on top of all that, while the Omen is stuck with 3 mid slots and crapacitor... ahem, I mean a capacitor bonus for its lasers. That's because medium Beams are Straight up better than Railguns and need to be balanced with crazy cap drain and adequate ship bonus so you don't break the game by having double bonussed guns. Wait... |
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
26
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Posted - 2014.11.29 12:53:40 -
[7] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the amarr cruisers. The only think that should be changed is upping the damage modifier on med pulses abit (and maybe tone done scorch M in the process to keep it balanced). The hulls themselves are pretty much fine |
Kosetzu
S1lver Flame
130
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
So what you're saying is: Nerf diversity! Make all ships the same! Why doesn't all ships have the same slot layout!
Hate to tell you but that is what is good about the game. Not everything needs to have the same things. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
71
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:17:42 -
[9] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:So what you're saying is: Nerf diversity! Make all ships the same! Why doesn't all ships have the same slot layout!
Hate to tell you but that is what is good about the game. Not everything needs to have the same things. Omen and Maller have the same slot layout and use the same weapon system.
Can't nerf diversity any more. |
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
26
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:36:15 -
[10] - Quote
Odithia wrote:Kosetzu wrote:So what you're saying is: Nerf diversity! Make all ships the same! Why doesn't all ships have the same slot layout!
Hate to tell you but that is what is good about the game. Not everything needs to have the same things. Omen and Maller have the same slot layout and use the same weapon system. Can't nerf diversity any more.
Yeah that totally makes them the same ship... Why this uninformed ranting? did you ever fly the amarr cruisers to begin with? The minmatar ones are in far worse shape tbh. |
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:36:17 -
[11] - Quote
And the Thorax, Vexor, Rupture and Stabber all have 4 mid slots and are all arguably armor tanking ships.
the Caldari versions all have 5 mid slots.
Now I wouldn't mind if Amarr ships actually had ways to work around this deficiency, but it seems to be that all the aforementioned cruisers simply out-class the Amarr versions.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:38:17 -
[12] - Quote
Kahlira, his point is right.
There's barely any difference between Omen and Maller; one is slower and tankier; other than that they are literally exactly the same.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Syrias Bizniz
Krautfleet
377
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:51:58 -
[13] - Quote
Have you actually, like in going into PvP in a 1v1 Cruiser duel or smilar, have you actually flown Amarr Cruisers?
If yes, why do you think they are in a bad shape? I could understand that, if the Amarr Cruisers had 2 Mid-Slots, they'd be horrible. But they have 3, or in the case of the Arbitrator, 4 midslots. Which is what you want. More mids would mean less lows. Do you want less Lowslots on the Amarr Cruisers? I don't think so.
I can tell you that the Omen is currently one of the top-notch cruisers. I can tell you that the Arbitrator has been and still is a good cruiser.
I can tell you that the only other Cruisers that can compare to the Omen are the Thorax and the Vexor, and this is not because of their midslots, but because of the sheer DPS they can potentially mount on such a cheap cruiser hull. I'd actually LOVE the Thorax to have another Lowslot. This would very likely put it in a better Place than the Omen is right now.
Also, with your argument of 'Maller is like Omen, same thing, one's a bit tankier, one's a bit faster'
Well, Thorax and Vexor are the same, too. One's a bit more Hybrid DPS, one's a bit more Drone DPS. The Rupture and the Stabber are the same, too. One sucks and is fast, the other sucks and is slow. The only real diversity in T1 Cruiser hulls can be seen at the Caldari, because they're a mixed weapons race.
TL;DR
Omen is cool, touch it and i take a NOmen and shove it up your rear.
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 13:53:34 -
[14] - Quote
I mean I am not saying to "nerf diversity" that is a complete over-simplification of what's going on
There is nothing wrong with diversity but I don't think this ship class is working as it should be.
The amount of utility that you gain with a 4th mid slot is invaluable compared to the extra low slot that the Omen and Maller get
Do you really think an extra heat sink or nano on an Omen, or an extra adaptive nano plating on a Maller is really a worth while trade off for the utility that a 4th mid slot would entail ?
There is no utility high slot for a neut or anything, either (which the Minmatar cruisers are entitled to)
By all means give the ships 3 mid slots, but give them the power to work around this deficiency too.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
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Posted - 2014.11.29 14:01:51 -
[15] - Quote
I have flown all the Amarr cruisers in pvp.
I think that the Omen or Maller in a 1v1 situation stand next to no chance against a Thorax, Vexor or Rupture if the pilots are similarly skilled.
The first problem is the lack of range control. All the cruisers you will face have 1 more mid slots than you do. Basically, you can kiss your range control goodbye. They will either have more webs than you, or the same webs and a cap booster or whatever else.
On top of that you cannot reliably brawl against other cruisers, for one thing ships like the Stabber Rupture and Vexor all get utility high slots and often fit energy neutralizers. Well you can counter that with a cap booster but then you don't have a single web so again you are a sitting duck. You don't get a tracking bonus or anything with the Omen either, alll you get is capacitor use bonus so you are basically ******.
Scorch is the main thing keeping Amarr ships competitive.
The thing that mainly proves my point is when you look at ship progression. When you go from a frigate hull to a cruiser hull you should expect to gain more slots. With every other race if you go from frigate to cruiser, you gain a mid slot. Incursus to Thorax, 3 mids to 4. Tristan to Vexor, 3 mids to 4, rifter to rupture, 3 mids to 4, the Slasher is somehow a special case with 4 mid slots and then progressing to a Stabber which also has 4 mid slots.
I'm not saying that some Minmatar ships don't need to be tweaked either; I'm sure some of them probably need to be looked at.
But I think Amarr cruisers are gimped.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Grease PaYN
Calibrated Chaos
6
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Posted - 2014.11.29 15:36:09 -
[16] - Quote
Amarr ships are generally not optimal for 1v1. That is, if you consider range control and unpredictability key factors for solo, which I do.
Still, you can make them work, I can.
Plug their weakness when you want to do solo and focus on their strengths when you want to gang up |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
867
|
Posted - 2014.11.29 15:38:15 -
[17] - Quote
Navy Omen, dead sexy. I say no more. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
380
|
Posted - 2014.11.29 18:05:02 -
[18] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Kahlira, his point is right.
There's barely any difference between Omen and Maller; one is slower and tankier; other than that they are literally exactly the same. lol, one is actually the best kiting T1 cruiser in the game while the other one is a short range brawler. totally the same ship |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
176
|
Posted - 2014.11.29 18:18:34 -
[19] - Quote
To mare wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Kahlira, his point is right.
There's barely any difference between Omen and Maller; one is slower and tankier; other than that they are literally exactly the same. lol, one is actually the best kiting T1 cruiser in the game while the other one is a short range brawler. totally the same ship Those are not strictly their roles
Calling a laser ship a short range brawler simply because it has a resist bonus and is slow as **** with no range control ?
By the way, the Maller actually can't reliably brawl with the other cruisers because of **** range control and / or crap damage and projection / reliance on capacitor.
Calling the Omen the best kiting Tech 1 simply because Scorch is literally the only reason worth flying it ?
Hey, look, I can roll my eyes too!
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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To mare
Advanced Technology
380
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Posted - 2014.11.29 20:41:12 -
[20] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:To mare wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Kahlira, his point is right.
There's barely any difference between Omen and Maller; one is slower and tankier; other than that they are literally exactly the same. lol, one is actually the best kiting T1 cruiser in the game while the other one is a short range brawler. totally the same ship Those are not strictly their roles Calling a laser ship a short range brawler simply because it has a resist bonus and is slow as **** with no range control ? By the way, the Maller actually can't reliably brawl with the other cruisers because of **** range control and / or crap damage and projection / reliance on capacitor. Calling the Omen the best kiting Tech 1 simply because Scorch is literally the only reason worth flying it ? Hey, look, I can roll my eyes too! still they are not the same ship and they are not supposed to fit the same role they both work very well in their intended role. they can be fitted almost in the same way and there will be not much difference between the 2, but if you fit them to use their strong points they feel and fly like 2 very different ships a maller would never be able to fly like a properly fit kite omen and an omen will never be able to have the staying power of properly fit maller. they have totally different bonuses, different stats (HP, speed, agi, etc), different drone bays, calling them the same just because of the same slot layout its just dumb |
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
177
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Posted - 2014.11.29 21:27:37 -
[21] - Quote
Listen, you, learn a little something.
I never even said the Omen and the Maller are the same.
What I said was true. Aside from one of them being much slower and tankier, they are literally exactly the same. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. They are literally exactly the same. Same slot layout, same weapons, same damage bonus. Different secondary bonus and one is more slow and one is more fast. Edit: actually I forgot about the drone bay, you're right on that end, but my point still stands I think.
This is not even the point anyway, it's a silly, ******** little argument that doesn't matter in the slightest compared to the real issue, which is:
1. The Omen is not the best Tech 1 kiting cruiser, this is hugely debatable, yet it is the only argument for why the Omen doesn't suck it. But really what this argument boils down to is "Scorch".
The reason the Omen is not the best Tech 1 kiting cruiser is because, while it may have a big DPS number with Scorch at a good range, it also lacks a utility high slot for a defensive neut or such. And only having 3 mid slots means you either fit a cap booster and have no defensive web or you fit a defensive web and suffer with huge capacitor issues and no tank. A defensive web or a neut is hugely important in a kiting setup, especially one whose maximum speed is like 2,200 m/s.
2. 3 mid slots makes the Omen gimped compared to other cruisers of it's class. Plain and simple. I'm not proposing CCP should just toss on an extra mid slot, willy nilly and hope everything will be OK. Actually I'm fine with the idea of having only 3 mid slots on the Tech 1 Amarr cruisers.
But it's the effectiveness of the ship that is the problem
I mean even if you ignore scram range fighting and say the Omen is meant for kiting, other ships of the same class can just as easily perform well in the same roles, ships like the Thorax and Stabber have no issue whatsoever in performing in a kiting role but they aren't forced into it by being gimped out of competition by only having 3 mid slots.
Then if you go into the scram range side of things, the Omen is completely out classed.
I mean, simply giving the Omen a bit of a capacitor buff, and changing the stupid cap bonus to a tracking bonus or optimal range bonus, would be a huge step in bringing the Omen where it should be, which is competitive in it's class. In it's current state I don't think it really is.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Shelom Severasse
The Maythorn
26
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Posted - 2014.11.30 00:13:03 -
[22] - Quote
OP, i dont know what the **** youre smoking haha
amarr cruisers are not in a bad place at all.
lets look at the omen.
the omen, as with many amarr ships, has a MASSIVE capacitor. this is due to the inherent nature of amarr. the use of energy turrets and to a lesser extent, neutralizers. this means that the ships enjoy a larger cap. you can compare this with minmatar/caldari cruisers, which have an infuriatingly, relatively small capacitor. this is because projectiles/missiles need 0 cap to operate.
in line with many amarr trends, the omen has a 115 meter sig radius. this means it has one of the smallest initial sig radius' of any cruiser.. the only cruiser, to the extent of my knowledge, with a smaller sig is the navy omen.. which is still an omen ha.
another great fact about this ship, is it is one of the faster cruisers if you intend to kite. it has more lows than a thorax, which means you can fit a nano fiber without sacrificing much of anything,,, cuz you have more lows,, and is therefore faster (you only need an mwd + cap booster + longpoint to kite in a cruiser. therefore the thoraxes 4th mid is actually somewhat wasted, unless you like having defensive webs, but if the enemy is that close to you, youre probably dead anyway so.. lol). unless you intend to kite without a nano. which is stupid. but the only other cruiser that is faster than the omen is the stabber.
as far as damage goes, the omen has a 40 drone bay and band width. this is smaller than ONLY the vexor and thorax. which means it is both more flexible in what you want to do and has more dps than a maller by that fact alone.
the ship also gets a rof bonus instead of a dmg bonus. the differences are small, but you actually get a LARGER dps bonus with a rof bonus than a straight dmg bonus
whats more to dps, is the sheer damage projection. pulses have the worst tracking, but t2 medium focused pulses, with sharpshooter 5 and scorch, get a 20km optimal. this means you can always engage kiters (unless they have a td) regardless if you yourself are kiting or brawling. even if you are brawling against say a thorax, you load conflag and he loads void. what kinda range are you guys going to get? he will have, what, a 2.5km optimal? and youll have almost a 7km optimal? this means you can shoot the guy at such a range with perfect* dps and he can barely hit you. meaning he will need to load either faction ammo or null. while youre still blasting away through his reload and his subsequent turret cycles with t2 dps ammo.
also, i noticed you seeming to discard the energy turret cap use bonus as it being irrelevant. do you have any idea how cap hungry ships with energy turrets are without that bonus???
those are just the main things that stand out to me. i am sure i can bring up more. try actually flying the ships from time to time instead of whining on the forums. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
7150
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 00:35:33 -
[23] - Quote
The above comment covered the omen , the only thing that needs pointing out about the maller is it's the bait ship of eve. plates +slaves+trimarks on a maller gives you stupidly high hp numbers.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Dato Koppla
Elite Guards
713
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Posted - 2014.11.30 00:54:47 -
[24] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:The above comment covered the omen , the only thing that needs pointing out about the maller is it's the bait ship of eve. plates +slaves+trimarks on a maller gives you stupidly high hp numbers.
Nobody uses bait Mallers for this very reason, obvious bait is obvious. In fact, for small gang work, I find it best to lightly tank Mallers (800 plate) and go for triple heat sinks and the biggest guns and push out as much dps as possible since you're pretty much always the last thing people will shoot. |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 01:13:03 -
[25] - Quote
Shelom,
So your big claim to fame is that with Conflagration you have a 4km range advantage over a Thorax ?
How about the fact that it is actually impossible to utilize that advantage because of range control ?
And I laughed at "sheer damage projection", as if a Thorax can't get the same or better projection with rails + having a defensive web.
And speaking of projection, you don't think having a defensive web or neut in a kiting cruiser is a useful module, particularly against frigates ?
Oh well, when they fix the Omen you can thank me.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Annuka
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
0
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Posted - 2014.11.30 02:09:56 -
[26] - Quote
The Maller is an outstanding cruiser for armor brawling gangs, thanks to its tank and projection with scorch. If it had an extra mid there would be no reason to ever use anything else for this purpose. The Omen is pretty 'meh' imo, but as a reasonably fast and cheap armor kiting cruiser it does the job just fine. Neither one is great for solo roaming, but not every ship excels at everything.
The Amarr faction cruisers though, are awesome. Everyone already knows how amazing the Omen Navy is. The Aug Navy is a better version of a Maller when fit as a brawler, and it can be fit as a kiting ship that plays like a better Omen that has two medium neuts.
That's not even getting into the T2 cruisers. In our HAC gangs, the only reason you bring something other than a Sacrilege is if you can't fly one. |
Persifonne
Monkey Demons Of Narnia
43
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 07:00:38 -
[27] - Quote
I just want my amarr recons not to suck so bad. Pooring one out for my curse homey |
Shelom Severasse
The Maythorn
28
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:20:56 -
[28] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Shelom,
1.) So your big claim to fame is that with Conflagration you have a 4km range advantage over a Thorax ?
2.) How about the fact that it is actually impossible to utilize that advantage because of range control ?
3.) And I laughed at "sheer damage projection", as if a Thorax can't get the same or better projection with rails + having a defensive web.
4.) And speaking of projection, you don't think having a defensive web or neut in a kiting cruiser is a useful module, particularly against frigates ?
5.) Oh well, when they fix the Omen you can thank me. i am going to number your entries so i dont have to type them out, just to keep everything straight
1.) i dont see how its my claim to fame, its just the differences between weapon systems that you can abuse
2.) how would it be impossible? fit an ab + web + scram and poof, you now have range dictation, as most cruisers are mwd fit
3.) do you know the difference between optimal and falloff? seriously. not trying to be a ****. an omen gets a 20km optimal and .08 tracking with meh skills. rail rax gets a debatable optimal since it depends on which ammo you use (but it is most likely less than 20km) but with MAX skills gets just short of .04 tracking. im sure you can see which weapon system has better application.
4.) uhm, they are very useful to have, but they arent needed. i dont think i said they werent useful man
5.) it aint broke. lol. and i would have no reason to thank you for something ccp would change if they followed that course of action. which i highly doubt they will. and hope they wont either. |
Shelom Severasse
The Maythorn
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 09:34:11 -
[29] - Quote
also, if its kiting cruisers youre talking about, and you mentioned the thorax and stabber earlier, i would bet on the omen winning a fair 1v1 between the 3 setups everytime. seriously.
im not saying the omen is kiting cruiser king or anything, i just find what you can abuse between the different weapon systems heavily in favor of lasers. as opposed to rails or ACs
rails have "ok" range, would much prefer more optimal like lasers and their tracking is horrendous.
ACs on a stabber are literally almost pure falloff. which sucks for any kind of ranged engagement. not to mention ACs have lower initial dps, as they depend on their ability to change damage types to help them kill things, which is hard to have work in your favor as you usually want/need to use barrage for kiting with ACs.
^^ all that is based on the general fittings for kiting t1 attack cruisers. i am sure there are niche fits out there really have an edge against the omen. but it probably lacks something to have that edge and is susceptible to other things
basically, what im saying is, different ships are different.
if you MUST have a utility high on every hull you fly, i think you should look at faction ships. |
Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated 404 Alliance Not Found
4
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:50:42 -
[30] - Quote
Amarr t1 cruisers aside from the arbitrator are not great for solo. This is not the same as saying that they are gimped.
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