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Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
26
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Posted - 2014.11.30 11:46:31 -
[31] - Quote
Ares you dont get the principle of laserboats. You do not need range control beceause you can shoot at any range with good tracking and damage within point range, and you will probably outtank anything that outdamages you. Shelom is pretty much right about the amarr cruisers: they are not great soloboats apart from the arby. |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 16:57:22 -
[32] - Quote
Can you explain why my Executioner has the same mid slots as my Omen Shelom ? Why aren't the frigate class ships gimped in the same way the cruisers are ?
Crucifier has the same amount of mid slots as Arbitrator ?
How does this make sense in any way ?
If the cruisers are gimped for mid slots ( yet supposedly work fine ) you would think the frigates would work in the same way. This is not the case.
Oh wait, there IS one frigate that is similarly gimped and it's the Punisher - and we all know how crap the Punisher is. It's a decent ship, it can fit a huge tank for a frigate, but I think the overwhelming majority would agree that the ship sucks for pvp most of the time, mainly because it is gimped with two mid slots and it has no effective way to counter act this gimpage. It can work under the right circumstances, but it is by far the worse frigate than the Executioner, Tormentor, or even the Crucifier.
Shelom, you must be capable of simple math
Omen - 3 mid slots. Thorax - 4 mid slots. That means it is literally impossible to control range against a Thorax within scram range. Unless, like you said, you fit a web and afterburner and just, I guess pray to god that the Thorax isn't doing the same ?
That's some real combat effectiveness.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 16:59:28 -
[33] - Quote
Kalihira wrote:Ares you dont get the principle of laserboats. You do not need range control beceause you can shoot at any range with good tracking and damage within point range, and you will probably outtank anything that outdamages you. Shelom is pretty much right about the amarr cruisers: they are not great soloboats apart from the arby. I don't get the principle of laser boats even though the ship I fly every single day is a laser Executioner that I destroy frigates and destroyers with on a daily basis ?
You do need range control, especially when you can't reliably brawl with the opposing ship class. The Omen is overwhelmingly out classed in scram range and with Scorch it only really equals itself out with other kiting cruisers - even though it is the only one with no defensive web.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 17:00:49 -
[34] - Quote
Jawls Rohn wrote:Amarr t1 cruisers aside from the arbitrator are not great for solo. This is not the same as saying that they are gimped.
Yeah it is. If you can only use a ship for fleets ( and a Tech 1 freaking cruiser at that ) then that means there is something wrong.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Valkin Mordirc
409
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Posted - 2014.11.30 17:46:43 -
[35] - Quote
Quote:Omen - 3 mid slots. Thorax - 4 mid slots.
Omen - 6 low slot. Thorax - 5 Low slots
If you are having troubles fitting an Omen I have something that may help
#DeleteTheWeak
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 17:50:41 -
[36] - Quote
the point is regarding range control FFS
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 18:00:03 -
[37] - Quote
Are you just like purposefully daft ?
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Shelom Severasse
The Maythorn
29
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Posted - 2014.11.30 19:03:44 -
[38] - Quote
I would try to help you understand, but your belligerence is irritating, so im inclined to let you flail. Have fun. |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 19:48:04 -
[39] - Quote
Shelom Severasse wrote:I would try to help you understand, but your belligerence is irritating, so im inclined to let you flail. Have fun. The fact is the mid slot scheme with these cruisers doesn't add up when compared to other cruisers of the same class.
And it doesn't add up when you compare them to their frigate sized counter parts.
Amarr is the only race where you can jump from frigate to cruiser, and not have a an increase in mid slots.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
69666
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:00:04 -
[40] - Quote
Each ship has their own strength and weaknesses that often match their "racial design". As for amarr ships their weakness is often a low amount of mids. But it is also their strength, as it means they got more lowslots which means more tank + dps for brawling ships or more dps/range/speed for kiting ships. The Slicer is one of the strongest frigs in game for solo pvp and so is the navy omen, yet both of them have the least amount of midslots for their class of ships.
Not all ships are meant to be 1v1 ships as it is impossible to balance them that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are useless at it. While the low amount of mids mean that they got lacking range control against other armour cruisers with more mids, it doesn't necessarily mean you are going to lose the brawl. Unlike frigates where range control is the name of the game and far from every ships can project damage to full scram range, there are only a few cruisers that struggle to do that. And that is mostly just blasterboats with low caliber guns. Amarr cruisers on the other hand can easily push out beyond scram range even without any other mods to increase their range. And they can even threaten targets in point range. Their main weakness with their lower range control is if the target gets under the guns. But that is a built in weakness with lasers. When it comes to kiting, then the lack of defense web can be really annoying. But in return they got great tracking with scorch compared to rails and arties while still having similar, or close, range and dps.
As for utility highslots, then there are actually few t1 cruisers that can threaten you with neuts. The Stabber and Rupture both suffers from low dps in order to get their utility highs and if they have medium neuts they often lack tank or dps or both. But even if you come across one of them, you have essentially met your counter, which brings us back to the strength and weaknesses. As for the neuting vexor, then they have to give up some dps to fit neuts, but with or without neuts they are still the strongest brawling cruiser in the game. In my opinion, CCP made a huge mistake when they purged utility highs from amarr ships. The maller should have kept the utility high in one way or another. After all, capacitor warfare is one of the traits of amarr ships.
The amarr cruisers aren't meant to be the best solo cruisers. They are meant to shine in fleet scenarios, but the main issue here is not their performance, but the fact that medium rails make Thoraxs and Moas really good for that as well.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated 404 Alliance Not Found
5
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:03:33 -
[41] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Jawls Rohn wrote:Amarr t1 cruisers aside from the arbitrator are not great for solo. This is not the same as saying that they are gimped.
Yeah it is. If you can only use a ship for fleets ( and a Tech 1 freaking cruiser at that ) then that means there is something wrong. Not really. Compare - the stabber's a pretty good solo boat. It's terrible as a line ship for anything bigger than a very small gang. Does that make it a broken ship? No. It's just different. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
381
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:06:54 -
[42] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Can you explain why my Executioner has the same mid slots as my Omen Shelom ? Why aren't the frigate class ships gimped in the same way the cruisers are ?
Crucifier has the same amount of mid slots as Arbitrator ?
How does this make sense in any way ?
If the cruisers are gimped for mid slots ( yet supposedly work fine ) you would think the frigates would work in the same way. This is not the case. the bellicose have the same midslots of the vigil, so what?
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Omen - 3 mid slots. Thorax - 4 mid slots. That means it is literally impossible to control range against a Thorax within scram range. Unless, like you said, you fit a web and afterburner and just, I guess pray to god that the Thorax isn't doing the same ?
That's some real combat effectiveness.
omen fits are usually faster and more agile (nanofibers) than thorax fits, plus you have a huge range advantage on the omen so if you fly correctly you shouldn't be in web/scram range, if you end up there it means you screwed up already.
saying that amarr cruiser can't solo is wrong they can solo as much as other races cruisers.
if your complaint about amarr cruiser is range control, guess what it's not such a big deal since you have a short range weapon that can hit up to 20 km and can switch ammo istantly, range control it's very important but the ships (especially the omen) can work very well even w/o a web, saying that a web is a must have for solo is BS its like all the vaga/cyna/random-kite-ship ppl are doing it wrong
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:42:52 -
[43] - Quote
Do you really think a single Nano makes up for the lack of web or cap booster ?
And are you really just going to ignore the fact that 90% of Vagas and Cynas use a defensive neut, and in the case of the Cyna either a defensive web or a neut or even both ?
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:46:09 -
[44] - Quote
Jawls Rohn wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Jawls Rohn wrote:Amarr t1 cruisers aside from the arbitrator are not great for solo. This is not the same as saying that they are gimped.
Yeah it is. If you can only use a ship for fleets ( and a Tech 1 freaking cruiser at that ) then that means there is something wrong. Not really. Compare - the stabber's a pretty good solo boat. It's terrible as a line ship for anything bigger than a very small gang. Does that make it a broken ship? No. It's just different. Nah, I don't buy that. A arty Stabber can still do 400 DPS at kiting range with 20k EHP and 2400 m/s so it is just as feasible in a fleet as an Omen is.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:50:29 -
[45] - Quote
Mizhir, people keep bringing up the navy Omen but I understand that ship is in a good place and same with the Slicer.
I am talking about the Tech 1 cruisers which are consistently outclassed or equaled in every role. They don't shine in any one particular area, except for a brick tanked Maller which is kind of cool I guess.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
15
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:26:01 -
[46] - Quote
Hrrm.
THe Maller can fit a 1600mm plate with 2xEANM II's, 2xHSII and DC II to bring it's EHP to almost 65K. That's a pretty beast buffer tank versus a paper thin Thorax with 500+ DPS. Those that to beast something similar would be a 1600mm plated Rupture, but the Maller still has the best tank and not much lower DPS in comparison. The Ruppy does have the 2 extra utility slots for Neuts and a web of course, so the concern is pretty obvious on why the extra mid or utility.
But, you can't have the entire cake and eat it too. Otherwise, all ships would be the same. The Maller has more PG than the Omen, but the Omen can fit a similar setup with a smaller cap booster, smaller tank, but more speed and more DPS. This is the real difference between the Omen and the Maller in my eyes. More speed/DPS or less speed/DPS for a fatter tank.
Both still really great ships, but I feel this is coming down to wanting the best DPS, best Tank and best Utility ship argument. This has been mentioned many times over for the Amarrian cruisers. It won't happen. They are the tank of the setup. They serve a role that fits them well. They are not the tank, dps and utility ship you want.
Famine Aligher'ri - Original Solo Pirate
Former The Pirate Syndicate Member
Former D.e.V.i.a.n.c.e member
Former Burn Eden member
Former BioMass Cartel member
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
2
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:55:10 -
[47] - Quote
Matari gun cruisers and CBC only have 4 mids and shield tank
HACs vaga has 4 med slots with an active sheilding bonus, and T2 sheild resist, munnin has 3 slots with a T2 resist profile in it's shields
navy harbinger has more mids than both hurricanes
hell the tempest and the phoon only have 5
oh and LOL the wolf, T2 sheild resist.... HAS 2 MIDS
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Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
1816
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:48:39 -
[48] - Quote
The Maller isn't just a good fleet ship. It's THE fleet ship as far as T1 cruisers go. '20 Mallers and 5 logi' in a low-sec intel channel will cause a double take more then 20 of any other T1 cruiser. Amarr militia ran with the concept for a while - the ship doctrine was called 'Panzer Fleet'. |
Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
16
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:03:45 -
[49] - Quote
Btw, here is a good setup for Maller to prove my point versys the solo plate Ruppy:
60K EHP (77/71/70/65) 465 DPS (Gleam) / 285 (Aurora) (22KM+1.2KM) 1200m/s Speed Cap Stable 67%
[Maller, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I Medium Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 400
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Drones of choice.
Famine Aligher'ri - Original Solo Pirate
Former The Pirate Syndicate Member
Former D.e.V.i.a.n.c.e member
Former Burn Eden member
Former BioMass Cartel member
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Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 09:21:49 -
[50] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The Maller isn't just a good fleet ship. It's THE fleet ship as far as T1 cruisers go. '20 Mallers and 5 logi' in a low-sec intel channel will cause a double take more then 20 of any other T1 cruiser. Amarr militia ran with the concept for a while - the ship doctrine was called 'Panzer Fleet'. I too like the Maller for this exact purpose. It has a "built in" cap bonus giving it a better cap than the omen with guns up to Focused Medium *** and a second proper bonus like every ship should have.
My biggest gripe is with the Omen (not navy). Is it kinda slow to be played as a cheap nomen and doesn't have the defensive web meaning a single frig can pretty easily ruin your day considering the poor tracking of pulse. It also lack versality meaning as a Amarr newbro you are in a bad position if your corp run shield cruiser fleets. |
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Syrias Bizniz
Krautfleet
387
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Posted - 2014.12.01 10:51:52 -
[51] - Quote
So, you are flying Executioners and like the laser-power on range, huh? And totally make it work with only 3 mids, yeah?
Then tell me, if the Omen is the upgrade to the Executioner, why would you need 4 midslots?
The Thorax is an upgrade to the Incursus, which is a Brawler. When solo brawling, midslots count. As such, it's pretty cool to have a 4th mid on a Thorax, or Vexor. Both these ships can also kite, in which case, most of the time they will utilize this midslot for ... tank. Or, as you pointed out, a defensive web, which is cool, since they're not the fastest cruisers. Fast, but not the fastest.
The Omen, however, is among the fastest cruisers, together with the Stabber, which has 4 midslots. The Stabber also has horrible DPS, and the 4th mid sure as hell wont help with that, other than fitting a Shieldtank so you don't waste 2 or 3 of your precious lowslots on an armor tank.
Also, not want to burn you here, but feeling the need for a defensive web or utility highslot for a neut kinda creates the impression that you're not trusting your piloting and decision making skills, and need more fail-safe-stuff.
Key to being a good pilot is knowing your weakspots, and do your very best in not allowing your enemies to capitalize on them. As such, when you can't defend against a frigate that has come into tackle range, your goal is not 'having a web to help with this', your goal is to not let it happen.
If the first frigate that get's a scram on you isn't gotten rid of in the next 3-5 seconds, you're most likely eating a second scram. And a third. And a notification that your friendly Insurance Company knows how bad you just fcked things up.
The Omen, with it's 3 midslots, is probably the best kiting cruiser in the T1 lineup, and for fleets, can also happily flown like a thorax can be: As a brawler. With one more Lowslot, which is what you want in a fleet of armor brawlers, not another mid.
Not everything you learn in FW Frigate Combat has to be emphasized on at cruiser level and above.
Look at the NOmen. Look at it. 3 mids, one utility high, and enough grid to put a small neut in there. A SMALL NEUT! If you think a small Neutralizer will help you fight the frigates off, than god bless you, and you'll need his blessing!
And still, the NOmen currently is the kiting cruiser. |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:39:07 -
[52] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:So, you are flying Executioners and like the laser-power on range, huh? And totally make it work with only 3 mids, yeah?
Then tell me, if the Omen is the upgrade to the Executioner, why would you need 4 midslots?
The Thorax is an upgrade to the Incursus, which is a Brawler. When solo brawling, midslots count. As such, it's pretty cool to have a 4th mid on a Thorax, or Vexor. Both these ships can also kite, in which case, most of the time they will utilize this midslot for ... tank. Or, as you pointed out, a defensive web, which is cool, since they're not the fastest cruisers. Fast, but not the fastest.
The Omen, however, is among the fastest cruisers, together with the Stabber, which has 4 midslots. The Stabber also has horrible DPS, and the 4th mid sure as hell wont help with that, other than fitting a Shieldtank so you don't waste 2 or 3 of your precious lowslots on an armor tank.
Also, not want to burn you here, but feeling the need for a defensive web or utility highslot for a neut kinda creates the impression that you're not trusting your piloting and decision making skills, and need more fail-safe-stuff.
Key to being a good pilot is knowing your weakspots, and do your very best in not allowing your enemies to capitalize on them. As such, when you can't defend against a frigate that has come into tackle range, your goal is not 'having a web to help with this', your goal is to not let it happen.
If the first frigate that get's a scram on you isn't gotten rid of in the next 3-5 seconds, you're most likely eating a second scram. And a third. And a notification that your friendly Insurance Company knows how bad you just fcked things up.
The Omen, with it's 3 midslots, is probably the best kiting cruiser in the T1 lineup, and for fleets, can also happily flown like a thorax can be: As a brawler. With one more Lowslot, which is what you want in a fleet of armor brawlers, not another mid.
Not everything you learn in FW Frigate Combat has to be emphasized on at cruiser level and above.
Look at the NOmen. Look at it. 3 mids, one utility high, and enough grid to put a small neut in there. A SMALL NEUT! If you think a small Neutralizer will help you fight the frigates off, than god bless you, and you'll need his blessing!
And still, the NOmen currently is the kiting cruiser.
You are delusional if you think most kiting cruiser don't use a defensive web or neut 90% of the time.
NOmen fits use a medium neut most of the time.
This isn't because the pilots using them lack skill, it's because it's kind of a ******* necessity when if you don't have one a frigate can scram you orbit you and not be touched by your pulse lasers.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
16
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Posted - 2014.12.01 17:53:56 -
[53] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:You are delusional if you think most kiting cruiser don't use a defensive web or neut 90% of the time. NOmen fits use a medium neut most of the time. This isn't because the pilots using them lack skill, it's because it's kind of a ******* necessity when if you don't have one a frigate can scram you orbit you and not be touched by your pulse lasers. Edit: I like how you say "the thorax isn't the fastest. Its fast but not the fastest." and then go on to say "the Omen is among the fastest cruisers" trying to create the illusion that the Omen has a speed advantage over the Thorax.
Depends on how you are and how you define kiting.
Obviously Neut II's are 12,600m and Web II's are 13,000m with no bonuses applied to either. Faction mods have modified optimal ranges on both, but assuming most are not pimping out that hard in PvP, you're going to want to kite outside of web range for maximum effect. Otherwise, you're going to be webbed and neuted by your opponent if you are kiting within 13,000m mark.
That said, kiting outside of 14,000m or above is well outside your web and neut range, but still within warp disruption range and ideally gun and drone range. In this case, I find it hard to believe you will be using your web and neuts 90% of the time unless there are bonuses applied to do so.
If that is the case, there should be no issue for a ship with no web or neuts to kite well for as long as they can keep a safe distance outside their opponents web and neut range. When they are not, then it's perfectly balance in my eyes because the counter to a kiting setup should always be a close range setup with tackle enabled such as web and neutralizers. So what the problem is?
Famine Aligher'ri - Original Solo Pirate
Former The Pirate Syndicate Member
Former D.e.V.i.a.n.c.e member
Former Burn Eden member
Former BioMass Cartel member
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
368
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 17:52:02 -
[54] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Amarr cruisers are gimped.
My Crucifier has the same amount of mid-slots as my Arbitrator.
My Executioner has the same amount of mid-slots as my Omen or my Maller.
Amarr is the only race with this deficiency.
But they're shiny and gold!
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated 404 Alliance Not Found
6
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Posted - 2014.12.02 21:43:46 -
[55] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Jawls Rohn wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Jawls Rohn wrote:Amarr t1 cruisers aside from the arbitrator are not great for solo. This is not the same as saying that they are gimped.
Yeah it is. If you can only use a ship for fleets ( and a Tech 1 freaking cruiser at that ) then that means there is something wrong. Not really. Compare - the stabber's a pretty good solo boat. It's terrible as a line ship for anything bigger than a very small gang. Does that make it a broken ship? No. It's just different. Nah, I don't buy that. A arty Stabber can still do 400 DPS at kiting range with 20k EHP and 2400 m/s so it is just as feasible in a fleet as an Omen is. No it can't. Link an arty fit that can get that DPS. Those EHP numbers and speed are a given , but even with 3 damage mods you do terrible dps. And maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I need 2 ACRs to get a full rack of 650s, an LSE and an MWD on.
Stabber's are terrible fleet ships. They work well in v small gangs where each pilot basically flies solo, anything above they're not good at. |
Reynas Arthie
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
4
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Posted - 2014.12.02 23:08:18 -
[56] - Quote
I AM AMARR!
I warp in with my fleet.
We land, target everything in range
Then
MELT EVERYTHING!
You need to go back to the institute and redo your classes on basic Amarrian warfare! |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:14:19 -
[57] - Quote
A Thorax can do anything an Omen can do at any range + it has extra utility in mid slots
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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Reynas Arthie
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
4
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:15:52 -
[58] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:A Thorax can do anything an Omen can do at any range + it has extra utility in mid slots
Really mate if you don't like them so much just stop flying them.
You are just sounding like a crying 12yr old now. |
Shelom Severasse
The Maythorn
30
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:27:14 -
[59] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:A Thorax can do anything an Omen can do at any range + it has extra utility in mid slots hahahahahahahaha
bro
just stop already
my sides cant take much more
but seriously. at kiting range the thorax NEEDS rails, at brawl range the thorax NEEDS blasters. where as the omen just needs pulses.
a thorax CANNOT do everything an omen can. DIFFERENT ships are DIFFERENT. |
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
178
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:50:53 -
[60] - Quote
Hey, here's a solution to crap ships! just don't fly them!
Geez wish I would have thought of that !
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
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