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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 04:54:46 -
[61] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Deimos has less raw armor. 90% resistance is meaningless
oh my god
no way there's someone this dumb
i feel like i'm taking crazy pills
you realize we're talking about active tanks, right? and a deimos can tank a brutix with just one rep
meanwhile the brutix has to run both is reps hard just to keep up with the deimos. It's going to cap itself out before neuting out the deimos. Deimos can run a single rep and its guns just fine while being neuted
PS similarly-fit deimoses and brutixes have nearly equal EHP versus blasters
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6661
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:04:42 -
[62] - Quote
Apologies... I didn't check the antimatter damage profile in EFT.
The Brutix and Deimos fit I have loaded in EFT are both running a single rep. And even with the Antimatter damage profile loaded the numbers are still close (within 50 to 90 dps)
I still stand by what I said earlier though; the Brutix's neut is going to, at best, make life VERY difficult for the Deimos and, at worst, **** it up. The Deimos NEEDS to pull range quickly or it will just be ground down.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14071
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:07:21 -
[63] - Quote
Viribus wrote:
why can't the deimos also fit an AB?
Because people will want to use that bonus to MWD the deimos gets and most people wont even think about an AB being an option. You didn't.
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Lugia3
The Southern Gentleman's Social Club Easily Excited
1404
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:08:37 -
[64] - Quote
Viribus wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Deimos has less raw armor. 90% resistance is meaningless oh my god no way there's someone this dumb i feel like i'm taking crazy pills you realize we're talking about active tanks, right? and a deimos can tank a brutix with just one rep meanwhile the brutix has to run both is reps hard just to keep up with the deimos. It's going to cap itself out before neuting out the deimos. Deimos can run a single rep and its guns just fine while being neuted PS similarly-fit deimoses and brutixes have nearly equal EHP versus blasters
Now put said Deimos up against a Hurricane Fleet Issue. Or the Brutix against an Apocalypse.
Easy to make the Deimos look strong and Brutix look weak when you're putting the Brutix right into the Deimos' resist strengths.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov!
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:33:18 -
[65] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I still stand by what I said earlier though; the Brutix's neut is going to, at best, make life VERY difficult for the Deimos and, at worst, **** it up. The Deimos NEEDS to pull range quickly or it will just be ground down.
the only thing the brutix's neut is going to make life difficult for is the brutix. It needs that cap way more than the deimos does
baltec1 wrote:Because people will want to use that bonus to MWD the deimos gets and most people wont even think about an AB being an option. You didn't.
I didn't because both the brutix and deimos desperately need the mobility an MWD offers, unless you think people are just gonna hit approach on a blaster ship (they will not)
Also, it's idiotic goalpost-shifting to suppose the brutix has an AB and the deimos doesn't. Especially since an AB would be way better on a deimos anyway, since it actually has the ability to speedtank things
Lugia3 wrote:Now put said Deimos up against a Hurricane Fleet Issue. Or the Brutix against an Apocalypse.
Easy to make the Deimos look strong and Brutix look weak when you're putting the Brutix right into the Deimos' resist strengths.
guess what
it wasn't my stupid idea to come up with a theoretical brutix-vs-deimos 1v1
especially since anyone with half a brain could predict the outcome of that fight
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14072
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:45:28 -
[66] - Quote
Viribus wrote:
I didn't because both the brutix and deimos desperately need the mobility an MWD offers, unless you think people are just gonna hit approach on a blaster ship (they will not)
Also, it's idiotic goalpost-shifting to suppose the brutix has an AB and the deimos doesn't. Especially since an AB would be way better on a deimos anyway, since it actually has the ability to speedtank things
No, it doesn't desperately need a mwd. Hell, most brutix's don't even bother using an armour rep, they just slap on a shield buffer and go with a gang of tackle frigs as heavy and very mobile DPS.
The deimos gets a bonus to MWD not AB so no, its not better off with the AB. Its also not a case of shifting the goalposts as I was always on about using an AB brutix which has the fitting room for the neut.
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 05:52:07 -
[67] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[No, it doesn't desperately need a mwd. Hell, most brutix's don't even bother using an armour rep, they just slap on a shield buffer and go with a gang of tackle frigs as heavy and very mobile DPS.
i think we have wildly different definitions of "very mobile"
Quote:The deimos gets a bonus to MWD not AB so no, its not better off with the AB.
what?
a ship with half the signature and nearly double the speed is worse off with an AB? you know the brutix doesn't get an AB bonus, right?
(hint: they both suck with an AB, but the deimos sucks less)
Quote:Its also not a case of shifting the goalposts as I was always on about using an AB brutix which has the fitting room for the neut.
doesn't matter really anyway, MWD or AB the brutix would lose to a deimos 120% of the time
also AB battlecruisers are laughably bad
as in I'm literally laughing right now
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14072
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:05:59 -
[68] - Quote
Viribus wrote:
i think we have wildly different definitions of "very mobile"
1500m/s from a med gun, 830 dps BC is now apparently slow.
Viribus wrote: what?
a ship with half the signature and nearly double the speed is worse off with an AB? you know the brutix doesn't get an AB bonus, right?
(hint: they both suck with an AB, but the deimos sucks less)
Deimos has the bonus to the mwd is what I was getting at. People don't like sacrificing that bonus and as you just demonstrated, they automatically think faster = better. That speed means nothing when you have to enter scram/web range to do your damage and your target ship has the exact same range but more firepower and a neut.
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:17:55 -
[69] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:1500m/s from a med gun, 830 dps BC is now apparently slow.
A nano brutix does like 1350, unless you're shifting goalposts again and assuming links
Quote:Deimos has the bonus to the mwd is what I was getting at. People don't like sacrificing that bonus and as you just demonstrated, they automatically think faster = better.
if you want to actually catch anything instead of sitting on a gate and spamming "fight me pls" in local then yeah, an MWD is better
Quote:That speed means nothing when you have to enter scram/web range to do your damage
however it does matter a lot for actually entering scram/web range
or running gatecamps
or burning out of bubbles
or any of the other uses for MWDs that apparently don't exist in whatever bizzaro EVE you're playing
Quote:and your target ship has the exact same range but more firepower and a neut.
less range
slightly more firepower
and a neut that hurts the brutix more than the deimos, because (and you've completely glossed over this) T2 resists allow the deimos to tank the brutix on just one rep, while the brutix needs both to tank the deimos
how are you still not understanding this. Neuts hurt on both ends, you seem to think it's some sort of magical anathema to any active tank when it really isn't, especially when it's fit to a ship that already has cap problems
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6662
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:32:03 -
[70] - Quote
Post your fits. I have a feeling you are running some terribad Brutix fit against a really gimmiky Deimos fit just to make your point.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14073
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:35:38 -
[71] - Quote
Viribus wrote:
A nano brutix does like 1350, unless you're shifting goalposts again and assuming links
Nanofibers, how do they work?
Viribus wrote:
if you want to actually catch anything instead of sitting on a gate and spamming "fight me pls" in local then yeah, an MWD is better
Remind us again on the engagement range of a blaster deimos.
Viribus wrote: however it does matter a lot for actually entering scram/web range or running gatecamps
or burning out of bubbles
or any of the other uses for MWDs that apparently don't exist in whatever bizzaro EVE you're playing
Oh no, a mod has some drawbacks and requires a different style of piloting. Thank god MWD have zero issues unless they get shut down by anything with a scram.
Quote:and your target ship has the exact same range but more firepower and a neut.
less range
slightly more firepower
and a neut that hurts the brutix more than the deimos, because (and you've completely glossed over this) T2 resists allow the deimos to tank the brutix on just one rep, while the brutix needs both to tank the deimos
how are you still not understanding this. Neuts hurt on both ends, you seem to think it's some sort of magical anathema to any active tank when it really isn't, especially when it's fit to a ship that already has cap problems[/quote]
Cap is stable at 67% on the brutix with the neut running so long as you have cap boosters. The deimos will run out of hull before you run out of cap in the brutix. Your extra range amounts to a mighty 2km more falloff with antimatter, a distance covered in less time than the refire rate of the guns.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14073
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:45:42 -
[72] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Post your fits. I have a feeling you are running some terribad Brutix fit against a really gimmiky Deimos fit just to make your point.
Bog standard fits actually.
The problem here is we have people who never fit ships for themselves and thus, have no idea how things work. This whole thread is an example of why CCP ignores most posts around here, these people simply don't know how to use the tools they have been given to make ships work.
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:51:59 -
[73] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The problem here is we have people who never fit ships for themselves and thus, have no idea how things work. This whole thread is an example of why CCP ignores most posts around here, these people simply don't know how to use the tools they have been given to make ships work.
boy you have no idea how right you are, for once
i can't believe i spent a portion of my finite lifespan arguing with someone who thinks AB brutixes are good
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14073
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Posted - 2014.12.02 06:56:42 -
[74] - Quote
Viribus wrote:baltec1 wrote:The problem here is we have people who never fit ships for themselves and thus, have no idea how things work. This whole thread is an example of why CCP ignores most posts around here, these people simply don't know how to use the tools they have been given to make ships work. boy you have no idea how right you are, for once i can't believe i spent a portion of my finite lifespan arguing with someone who thinks AB brutixes are good
Case in point.
I even had to tell you to use nanos on a ship you called a nano brutix.
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 07:01:54 -
[75] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Case in point.
I even had to tell you to use nanos on a ship you called a nano brutix.
1350 is with a nano, genius
pvp master of GSF right here
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14073
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 07:07:42 -
[76] - Quote
Viribus wrote:baltec1 wrote: Case in point.
I even had to tell you to use nanos on a ship you called a nano brutix.
1350 is with a nano, genius pvp master of GSF right here
Yet here I am looking at 1500.
You are messing it up somehow, are you fitting plates?
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
337
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Posted - 2014.12.02 07:22:37 -
[77] - Quote
you need 3 nanos to break 1500
and using half your lows for nanos is just... a level of badness i didn't think possible
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2014.12.02 07:32:24 -
[78] - Quote
OP is suffering from survivor guilt. He has seen all his comrades fall while his Gallente ship survived and thrived. This has led him to believe his ship is unworthy and that all Gallente craft need to be gimped to enable the enemy to destroy him.
Nerfing Gallente is not the answer; therapy is. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14073
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 07:43:11 -
[79] - Quote
Viribus wrote:you need 3 nanos to break 1500
and using half your lows for nanos is just... a level of badness i didn't think possible Two nanos. Also using nanos in the lows is very common.
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
290
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 09:12:34 -
[80] - Quote
Let's also nerf all the ships that:
- are faster than other ships - are tankier than other ships - have more range than other ships - have some bonuses that other ships don't have - look different - have different names
also, Brutix is ****
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Jacid
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
60
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Posted - 2014.12.02 10:16:34 -
[81] - Quote
Not to add to this whine fest but i just want to point out that a brutix costs 60 million or so for the hull and the demios 140 or more. I consider that fair exchange for the brutix being at a slight disadvantage (possibly debatable)
Vexors and NVI are terribly weakly tanked when shield tanked.
Although I do think drones need to be looked at. The issue boils down to the fact that they must fit in all hull types. Unlike the rest of the weapon systems in the game where hull bonuses are tied to weapons sizes. I always felt drones need to be more fragile to counter their power and bonuses to drone hitpoints need to be removed from hulls.
You might also remove drone bandwidth and control range. Then make drones like the rest of the weapon systems with a cycle time, and overheating. The difference would be that drones have flight time like missiles and also a recall time when the weapon system stops cycle.
But that's really for a different thread... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1006
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 13:56:58 -
[82] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Quote:hardly a supernerf, just toning down some of the very strong dps cruisers too more reasonable dps levels .. try fitting a VNI with ogres and 2 blasters 3 DDA's and you'll see just how much dps you can get.. Deimos , i was thinking more a Nos too help its cap, with a small damage buff too compensate some dps loss.
Notice how there are no amarr or minmatar ships in my list.. Yeah a Vexor would get a pretty sick DPS. But your not going to have a tank at that point. And I really don't care that you didn't mention Amarr or Minmatar ships, What was the point of mentioning it in the first place? I never said anything about them. And again, Why do you insist on Nerfing Cruiser just because CBC's are flimsy? A HAC SHOULD beat a CBC. Even if CBC's where decent. A well fit brutix vs a well fit diemost will see the brutix win. Both will slug it out at the same range and both get a rep bonus but the brutix gets more firepower and meat to its tank. Then there is the myrm, a damn fine solo BC. CBC are far from helpless like the OP tries to make out.
i didnt try too make out they were helpless in any way, merely that i felt there are plenty of cruiser options that can do a better job than CBC's out there , with just as strong dps or higher, which is a little at odds with the supposed trade offs the different hulls are meant too make, disregarding cost as CCP has said its not a balancing factor.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.02 13:59:09 -
[83] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:Harvey James wrote:Zavand Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Cruisers are actually pretty fine where they are. The VNI might do it's job to well, but it's certainly not on the levels how you are putting it.
For the most part, HAC's fill the role just fine. The Deimos probably one of the better ones, and the Eagle being probably the worst. I think the Deimos does just fine as is though, again maybe slightly overpowered. But not enough to lose a turret slot in exchange for a neut. It's an active tanking ship it doesn't need more cap pressure to put on itself.
Rather then calling for a Super-nerf on cruisers. What about a buff to CBC's?
Will agree the the Gila/Worm are OP, though. Gila can sling 1000dps with a bling fit. D= hardly a supernerf, just toning down some of the very strong dps cruisers too more reasonable dps levels .. try fitting a VNI with ogres and 2 blasters 3 DDA's and you'll see just how much dps you can get.. Deimos , i was thinking more a Nos too help its cap, with a small damage buff too compensate some dps loss. Notice how there are no amarr or minmatar ships in my list.. what about the cerberus then? can get same dps as deimos and apply it to way better ranges also needs nerf hammer no? i love the constant massive exaggerations too try and justify a point.. knocking something down a peg to where it belongs is hardly anywhere near a nerf hammer.. but yes cerb is also a little strong with projection and dps.. but even with 700dps it hardly applies it aswell as a deimos and is stuck with kinetic only, although HAM's having the same range as torps isn't right and will be fixed at some point surely.. Cerb has 0 projection issues. It can hit out to long range doing good dps on smallish targets. If you want to wax frigs, fit rapid lights and you become a mobile no-fly zone for small ships. Meanwhile the Deimos has to be within 5km to do any damage whatsoever. Pro tip: The Deimos is also restricted to kinetic/thermal damage. Do you even Eve?
mm... rapid lights are a different story of brokeness that should have been deleted.. and i think you are disregarding the range possibilities the deimos has as either blaster or rail fitted..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14074
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Posted - 2014.12.02 14:54:21 -
[84] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: i didnt try too make out they were helpless in any way, merely that i felt there are plenty of cruiser options that can do a better job than CBC's out there , with just as strong dps or higher, which is a little at odds with the supposed trade offs the different hulls are meant too make, disregarding cost as CCP has said its not a balancing factor.
But as has been shown the brutix will out damage the deimos while sporting a good deal more buffer and it is far from sluggish. The deimos is a fine cruiser but it does not invalidate the brutix.We then have the likes of the myrm and the cane which are both nice ships. CBCs are not out classed here.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.02 15:14:22 -
[85] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Harvey James wrote: i didnt try too make out they were helpless in any way, merely that i felt there are plenty of cruiser options that can do a better job than CBC's out there , with just as strong dps or higher, which is a little at odds with the supposed trade offs the different hulls are meant too make, disregarding cost as CCP has said its not a balancing factor.
But as has been shown the brutix will out damage the deimos while sporting a good deal more buffer and it is far from sluggish. The deimos is a fine cruiser but it does not invalidate the brutix.We then have the likes of the myrm and the cane which are both nice ships. CBCs are not out classed here.
alright so in some cases the deimos might not win a fight against CBC's... it is maybe more a case edge like i said , but things like the gila, VNI etc would win
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
118
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:19:04 -
[86] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:baltec1 wrote:Harvey James wrote: i didnt try too make out they were helpless in any way, merely that i felt there are plenty of cruiser options that can do a better job than CBC's out there , with just as strong dps or higher, which is a little at odds with the supposed trade offs the different hulls are meant too make, disregarding cost as CCP has said its not a balancing factor.
But as has been shown the brutix will out damage the deimos while sporting a good deal more buffer and it is far from sluggish. The deimos is a fine cruiser but it does not invalidate the brutix.We then have the likes of the myrm and the cane which are both nice ships. CBCs are not out classed here. alright so in some cases the deimos might not win a fight against CBC's... it is maybe more a case edge like i said , but things like the gila, VNI etc would win
ya you have take the next step to faction or pirate to get it done |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14074
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 17:41:25 -
[87] - Quote
Pirate ships are meant to be powerful but they are not invincible. A ship with a smartbomb is going to cause issues for example.
As a side note, the CBCs can fit 100mn MWD to hit speeds of over 4k and are able to fit a full rack of guns, tackle, a probe launcher and a bit more than a token tank. Gimicky yes but having a BC chasing down frigates is a rather funny thing to see.
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