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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1472
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Posted - 2014.12.03 09:05:15 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.
Thanks again
I personally would appreciate it if you hold this back till you're ready to overhaul the entire corporation interface. It's just a one click you remove with little to no benefits and a whole lot of possible headaches and abuses.
I'm sure that once you're ready redoing the interface you'll find no need for this one-click add-on many do not want nor need. Is this really needed I ask myself.
Also introducing this then going oh, we need to to mitigate the concerns that have been raised seems a bit odd. You're an EVE dev. First thing you probably should do when you have an idea of a new mechanic/item/etc is asking your self, "how will our players abuse this?" You know us we will. Give us a hand we'll run away with your arm. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
115
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:16:41 -
[62] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.
Thanks again Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback. Not implementing a feature means not paying a salary for devs involved. There is a workaround though: 1. They implement the feature. 2. They wait for clusterfuck to build up. 3. They resolve it by removing the feature. 4. Everyone's happy. PROFIT! |
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CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
379
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Posted - 2014.12.03 16:56:37 -
[63] - Quote
Ok all, thanks again for all the feedback.
Firstly let me clear up some misconceptions that have been rampant in this thread and then Ill get onto what we're doing to address some of the legitimate concerns people have for this change. Bear with me!
How the current system actually works (On TQ right now) 1. Character applies to corporation. - Must be in station 2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station 3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Can be in space or in station
As you can see from the above, most of the things people are worried about are already possible on TQ, the only thing a station is required for currently is the initial application, after that application is in the rest of the process is unrestricted.
After considering this though, we do admit that the system is inconsistent and is open to abuse, so we've made some changes that should improve this for all.
How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made) 1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station 2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station 3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod
In addition to this, quitting corp will also now be subject to the station or pod restriction, meaning that changing corporations is always consistent.
This change does a few things: - Moves all restrictions to the most obvious step, aligning them with the existing restriction to changing to a rookie corp. - Allowing people to switch corporations while in pod restricts their ability to abuse the mechanic (Which as some have pointed out is already a confirmed exploit), while not forcing wormholers and other stationless folk to return to a station to change corporations.
Some notes on spam Many were concerned that this option will be open to spam abuse, and you could expect to receive a constant stream of invitations every time you enter places such as Jita. Firstly, invite spam is a bannable offence, if you suspect someone of doing this you need only report them for spam and our GMs will do the rest! Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once. And last but not least, we'll be throttling the amount of invites a player can send per minute to 6.
And as mentioned previously, you can use the new notification to ensure you never have to see another invitation.
For those unclear of the process it is as follows: 1. Click the notification button. 2. Click the settings button. 3. In the resulting window, expand the 'Corporate' section. 4. Deselect both check boxes next to 'You have been invited to join a corporation'
And finally, I just wanted to ensure everyone that this is by no means the end of Five 0s foray into corps, but in fact the beginning. This was simply a low hanging fruit designed to ease the process from newbro to corporation member and all round spacebro. Expect to hear more from us in the future as we delve into this wonderland of contradictions and old code!
CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
382
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:04:29 -
[64] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.
Thanks again Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback. I'd like to point out this guy is wrong: any feedback is generally dominated by the people rending their garments over it. I think this is a helpful and useful change that's definitely going to be useful for altcorps and things like that. |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
144
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:10:59 -
[65] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Grookshank wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.
Thanks again Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback. I'd like to point out this guy is wrong: any feedback is generally dominated by the people rending their garments over it. I think this is a helpful and useful change that's definitely going to be useful for altcorps and things like that.
Agreed. To me, this is quite useful and makes sense to have a standardization of the recruitment/kicking process.
CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.
CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
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Alner Greyl
The Scope Gallente Federation
164
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:11:23 -
[66] - Quote
Add button: Restrict corp invitations |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
115
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:43:47 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:Must be in station OR pod What a dramatic twist. Looks like the change is not that useless anymore. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1606
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Posted - 2014.12.03 19:16:51 -
[68] - Quote
Amazing. I'm surprised highsec PvP happens at all given how badly broken it was going to be after Rhea. What a bunch of noobs :)
Now I guess there will be a bunch of surprise concordokken before next week!
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3898
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:06:38 -
[69] - Quote
Question.
I undock in a shuttle or rookie ship and allow a war target to blap me without resisting them (no limited engagement timer). I then accept another corp invite into a neutral corp in space as a capsule before the WT has a target lock - if they shoot my pod, will they be CONCORDED?
Second question.
Re invite spamming. Is it acceptable to send totally unsolicited corp invites under this new system, assuming you don't intentionally send more than one invite to a given pilot and you don't intentionally time the invites to be disruptive?
Third question.
I assume it is against the rules to ever send someone an unsolicited corp invite at a time that is intended to be disruptive, even if you only ever send one invite (e.g. when you have a station trade window open with the person on your alt). Is this correct?
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
& Vote #2 Tora Bushido
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
954
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:07:15 -
[70] - Quote
Quote:Insta- Joining and Leaving corporations to surprise war targets is an exploit! - Reported: 2008.08.26 15:38:53
Sure took your sweet time fixing that, huh?
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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interesangt
Artic Drilling Inc.
10
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Posted - 2014.12.04 00:37:12 -
[71] - Quote
You might want to consider automatic role/title drop when players want to leave or gets kicked..
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
62
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Posted - 2014.12.04 03:27:33 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote: Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once.
And as mentioned previously, you can use the new notification to ensure you never have to see another invitation.
Sooo, let me clear something up. From how you worded it, i have to leave all 'spam' invites permanently 'pending' and not ever decline any of them, or they can just send me another the next time they get back around to my name in local.
Also, the 'notifications' part does nothing to prevent the clutter of corp invites in everyones inbox. This is also a huge negative here. SOOOO MUCH INBOX CLUTTER.
Also, whats to prevent someone from having an orca with a T3 in its bay from pulling the same shenanigans....? Or is that still going to be considered an exploit? Why not just fix the system to not allow combat with a new corp for a warm-up period, or be not allowed to board a ship for so long...your 'pod' requirement does not fix the problem.
But who am i kidding, you have this the way you want it, i'm not really sure why you bother with feedback on most things anymore...generally you fail to respond to it, and when you do it is usually by telling us how wrong we are and/or how 'it won't be that bad on TQ'.... |
Callic Veratar
642
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Posted - 2014.12.04 05:29:06 -
[73] - Quote
So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:
1) Have Invite Ready 2) Eject Pod 3) Accept Invitation 4) Board Ship
Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1614
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Posted - 2014.12.04 06:02:35 -
[74] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:
1) Have Invite Ready 2) Eject Pod 3) Accept Invitation 4) Board Ship
Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp. The process RIGHT NOW is:
1) Have Invite Ready 2) Accept Invitation
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
388
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Posted - 2014.12.04 10:18:36 -
[75] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:
1) Have Invite Ready 2) Eject Pod 3) Accept Invitation 4) Board Ship
Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp. Sorry I should have made this clear, a session change happens when you change corp, so you can't board a ship for a short time afterwards.
CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski
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Kale Freeman
Dirt 'n' Glitter
30
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Posted - 2014.12.04 10:57:52 -
[76] - Quote
Any limitations about inviting players to join a faction warfare corp? Sitting in Jita and Inviting unsuspecting players to join my corp that is in Minmatar/Gallente FW could be super fun.
Also, how soon after joining do wardecs become effective? Might try making two corps, setup a wardec from one to the other and then try get the undocking freighters to join. Could work about the same as trying to trick them into a duel request. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
168
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Posted - 2014.12.04 15:01:16 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:How the current system actually works (On TQ right now) 1. Character applies to corporation. - Must be in station 2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station 3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Can be in space or in station
Hmm, I was sure that this wasn't how it worked, but you're right. My mistake.
Quote:How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made) 1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station 2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station 3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod
Okay, so given that joining is now pod or station restricted, I presume the old surprise war target exploit ruling will no longer apply? So this is actually a wardec buff and intentionally so?
What about a player who is in a pod and currently pointed joining another corp to immediately change the rules of engagement while in pvp? This remains an issue, could you restrict accepting an invitation to a) docked or b) in pod with no pvp logoff timer?
Complaints about invite spam stand, but clearly you aren't going to budge on that. |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2610
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Posted - 2014.12.04 15:35:33 -
[78] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Quote:Insta- Joining and Leaving corporations to surprise war targets is an exploit! - Reported: 2008.08.26 15:38:53 Sure took your sweet time fixing that, huh?
That was when we declared it as an exploit publically. Did a bit of digging for funsies. We discovered/reported it as a defect the day before. Decided to go the route of announcing it as an exploit rather than fixing immediately due to some design concerns relating to Titans and Supercarriers pilots being unable to join corps if we went with our proposed fix. There's a lot of back and forth between people I don't know, then the defect goes quiet until 2011 (by this time it had been replaced by another defect in fact) when it gets closed due to being unable to change corp in space. That was fun
CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12135
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Posted - 2014.12.04 15:39:54 -
[79] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote: Okay, so given that joining is now pod or station restricted, I presume the old surprise war target exploit ruling will no longer apply? So this is actually a wardec buff and intentionally so?
The exploit ruling stands until we explicitly state otherwise. This change makes that particular exploit less powerful and more difficult, but that doesn't negate the earlier ruling.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
383
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Posted - 2014.12.04 15:44:38 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote: How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made) 1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station 2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station 3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod
Some notes on spam Many were concerned that this option will be open to spam abuse, and you could expect to receive a constant stream of invitations every time you enter places such as Jita. Firstly, invite spam is a bannable offence, if you suspect someone of doing this you need only report them for spam and our GMs will do the rest! Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once. And last but not
Given these two tweaks, I have no objections.
Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!
This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury
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Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
383
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Posted - 2014.12.04 15:47:39 -
[81] - Quote
Kale Freeman wrote:Any limitations about inviting players to join a faction warfare corp? Sitting in Jita and Inviting unsuspecting players to join a corp that is in Minmatar/Gallente FW could be super fun.
Also, how soon after joining do wardecs become effective? Might try making two corps, setup a wardec from one to the other and then try get the undocking freighters to join. Could work about the same as trying to trick them into a duel request.
What is the default setting for a fleet hanger? If the default is corporation use then it might be worthwhile trying to recruit some unsuspecting orcas. Might be able to snag a backup hulk or something from the hanger if they click accept.
Wardecs become effective immediately upon joining. The default behavior for all shared resources (fleet hangars and SMAs) is no access. The pilot has to specifically grant access to corp or fleet.
Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!
This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury
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Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
116
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:29:40 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Masao Kurata wrote: Okay, so given that joining is now pod or station restricted, I presume the old surprise war target exploit ruling will no longer apply? So this is actually a wardec buff and intentionally so?
The exploit ruling stands until we explicitly state otherwise. This change makes that particular exploit less powerful and more difficult, but that doesn't negate the earlier ruling. Put a couple of minute delay between switching corps and being able to undock, or enter a ship, and that exploit virtually goes away. |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
62
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:41:54 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: This change makes that particular exploit less powerful and more difficult, but that doesn't negate the earlier ruling. Yes, that 10 second session change timer will be SOOO debilitating to this tactic....nobody will ever try it again because it makes it so much more difficult...
Also, can you please clear this up...
Lil' Brudder Too wrote: Sooo, let me clear something up. From how you worded it, i have to leave all 'spam' invites permanently 'pending' and not ever decline any of them, or they can just send me another the next time they get back around to my name in local.
Also, the 'notifications' part does nothing to prevent the clutter of corp invites in everyones inbox. This is also a huge negative here. SOOOO MUCH INBOX CLUTTER.
because that seems like a rather inconvenient method to try to avoid invite spam...
*only* 6 invites by single player per minute...thats only 10 seconds per...not exactly a huge restriction. (Granted, i know it can be done much faster than that if you put your heart into it) |
Dave Stark
7208
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Posted - 2014.12.04 19:27:01 -
[84] - Quote
can't be on grid, and a session change timer.
so basically, instead of it being instant it'll be like 30 seconds between joining a corp and killing a guy who's already in space under a wardec?
not sure 30 seconds is the difference between "going to be abused to hell and back" and "not a problem".
*shrug* |
Callic Veratar
648
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Posted - 2014.12.04 22:10:14 -
[85] - Quote
I think the fix would be you can't join a corp that has declared non-mutual war while in a pod. Alternately, you cannot aggress wartargets for a set period upon joining a corp (6 hours?).
Wardecs are a bad mechanic. Necessary, but still bad. |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
62
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Posted - 2014.12.05 15:11:29 -
[86] - Quote
Bumping this for Dev attention....because it is NOT DONE yet. |
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CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
390
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Posted - 2014.12.05 15:40:35 -
[87] - Quote
Lil' Brudder Too wrote: Sooo, let me clear something up. From how you worded it, i have to leave all 'spam' invites permanently 'pending' and not ever decline any of them, or they can just send me another the next time they get back around to my name in local.
Also, the 'notifications' part does nothing to prevent the clutter of corp invites in everyones inbox. This is also a huge negative here. SOOOO MUCH INBOX CLUTTER.
Again, none of this is relevant if you just report spam, as Ive said previously invite spam is a bannable offence.
If for some reason you don't want to do that then sure, leaving the invites open can stop another invite. I only provided that as a extra reassurance above and beyond the standard procedure.
There will be no further changes made for this before Rhea, as development now will only increase the risk of problems in the release, something we're understandably very cautious about. Again though Id like to reiterate that we're not finished with corps, if invite spamming becomes as big an issue as you seem to think it will be, then we'll react accordingly.
CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
62
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Posted - 2014.12.05 15:53:52 -
[88] - Quote
So...your confirming you think the 10 second session change timer will make the switching corps in-space to blap unsuspecting WT's is sufficiently "difficult" for them to render it something they will not do any more?
Yes, if it is still considered an 'exploit', you can report them and run the chance of a GM eventually coming back and saying "our logs don't show anything"....or the eventual possibility of a partial reimbursement...minus any modules that dropped...(which could cost much more than the ship), and even maybe getting clone implants reimbursed as unpackaged implants...that because you had to wait a week for the response, you already replaced them...so now you are stuck with a set of implants you can't do anything with.
You can do better than that CCP. Read the feedback in this thread. Take it to heart, eventhough it doesn't fit with your perfect little plan of how you think players actually play this game. Please. |
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CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
390
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Posted - 2014.12.05 16:15:58 -
[89] - Quote
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:So...your confirming you think the 10 second session change timer will make the switching corps in-space to blap unsuspecting WT's is sufficiently "difficult" for them to render it something they will not do any more? I think you misread my post, because I didn't even mention the corp changing exploit once. Additionally, are you now complaining that this change makes the system better but not better enough?
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: There will be no further changes made for this before Rhea, as development now will only increase the risk of problems in the release, something we're understandably very cautious about.
Then why did you wait till ONE WEEK before the release to even tell us about it? It does not seem like this whole "rapid release" schedule is allowing you to delay things that still need work...like you all claimed was one of the primary benefits... It also allows us to release relatively low risk changes and quickly iterate on them should changes be needed, like we are doing here.
CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1451
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Posted - 2014.12.05 16:28:13 -
[90] - Quote
Woh.. I didn't expect so much complaints for a simple improvement like this one
Keep up the good work CCP Lebowski, really looking forward a grand corp / alliance overhaul!
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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