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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1346
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Posted - 2014.12.12 19:29:40 -
[31] - Quote
I'm glad you backed down from the "delete CSM" position.
I would also be more worried about overrepresentation of sov nullsec powers if they were abusing the privilege, but as long as they send thoughtful people with an eye on the big picture (which is one thing that their lofty perch gives them access to) it seems more like an academic question to me.
Rooks and Kings are infamous--especially in wake of the latest promotional video--for pipebombing, which seems more like an example of the "suddenly dead" PVP that you dislike than any sort of stand-up brawl. Also, how do you nerf "alpha" when it's mostly a function of the number of ships? Until very recently beam lasers had terrible alpha individually (and it's still not great), but if you get enough of them to fire simultaneously at a target, it will evaporate just as surely as if you used Tornadoes. You just need more of them. Fleet alpha is a significant design problem in EVE, but I'm not sure that you're coming at it from the right angle, especially in terms of ease of implementation.
The only time ships just appear on grid is if you undock or jump onto a grid where they're already there. Otherwise, you can see them on D-scan (and, situationally, in Local). The basic survival strategies of setting standings and using D-scan are, regrettably, not taught to new players by the game itself. Is there a reason you prefer mechanical nerfs to attacks that are already in progress instead of putting greater emphasis on teaching situational awareness?
I understand how an "abstain" vote would have semantic value, especially if you could specify a reason, but I'm reasonably sure that a vote of no confidence would be terribly abused (see also: the lack of a "dislike" button on the forums) by precisely the blocs that you're worried about. Is that a larger problem than the apparent disinclination of most of the game to participate at all?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
594
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Posted - 2014.12.13 02:51:33 -
[32] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: I would also be more worried about overrepresentation of sov nullsec powers if they were abusing the privilege, but as long as they send thoughtful people with an eye on the big picture; it seems more like an academic question to me. Rooks and Kings are infamous---for pipebombing, which Also, how do you nerf "alpha" when .... D-scan (and, situationally, in Local). .... Is there a reason you prefer mechanical nerfs to attacks that are already in progress instead of putting greater emphasis on teaching situational awareness? I understand how an "abstain" vote would have semantic value, but I'm reasonably sure that a vote of no confidence would be terribly abused
My reply might be a bit short and sharp, I am in space so my attention is split and it is getting late here, bear with me, please.
I doubt most of the CSM do it deliberately, for the most part people see themselves as good people, doing good things, rel- {de-railment food deleted} However, when you live in a certain place, be it a city, country or type of space, you naturally develope a familiarity and a bias. You make decisions based on the experience you have had and the freshest of those.
As I see it, the problem is two fold 1) Null has voting blocks and coalitions vote for their representative blindly The inverse is that high sec is split up, scattered and hardly knows each other. 2) The other sectors of space don't know or have lost hope of being represented in CSM
The vote against option would allow them to nullify the first part of the problem, Them knowing that and then putting coming forward to stand for their type of space would reply on CCP informing them properly through MoTDs in local and the Launcher.
The pipe bombing is a tool that will hopefully have a counter found by the players or coded. However, the root of it is that it is a small group that stand toe to toe with much larger foes.
Alpha, I have been thinking that either there is a delay where logi have a chance to respond, preventing a one shot or you can link your fleet in someway to "dissipate energy" and spread the damage.
As I said in another thread, I have slow boated between two book marks across asteroid anomolies in worm hole space, ready to warp at a moment's notice while hitting that horrible D-scan over and over again. - That is not fun. There should be manual D-scan with quicker results and a slower auto D-scan like auto pilot, some drawback to it.
So, I would say a bit of both. I like some Darwinism but I like good tools for people to use also.
71% of active pilots are in high sec. EVE essentially is a high sec game, a fair amount of them might be null sec alts but they would not exist without a purpose there. My belief is that the null blocs might vote me to 0 repeatedly because I antagonise them and am not charismatic but I still think that if high sec felt empowered then they would knock some nulls down to a level that is more competitive and vote up some of their own.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
969
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Posted - 2014.12.13 07:08:28 -
[33] - Quote
I support your position on changing voting mechanics to allow players to vote against but you will still end up with Null Blocs just voting as a bloc against certain individuals, instead of for individuals, and since it is a runoff either way LS HS and WH candidates will be eliminated by the combined efforts of NS block voting.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with having NS bloc voting, but I think that CCP and CSM should encourage a format change where only a certain number of regional representatives can be voted in. A set number of spots for each region NS 2, HS 2, LS 2, WH 2 for example. This allows people who aren't being spoonfed a vote to target representation that reflects them, instead of simply picking from a list of names in a hat essentially.
As for Alpha, any reduction to it should be met by an equal nerf to logistics, as the only way to counter the logistical capability of fleets is to use enough Alpha to eliminate ships before reps land. If you eliminate Alpha strikes then what is stopping half the people who used to fly Alpha ships, from flying Logi. You end up with 2 unkillable fleets fighting each other...which makes the change redundant.
Thats my 2 cents on your issues Good Luck in your campaign! |
Jenshae Chiroptera
594
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Posted - 2014.12.13 13:48:33 -
[34] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: As for Alpha, any reduction to it should be met by an equal nerf to logistics, as the only way to counter the logistical capability of fleets is to use enough Alpha to eliminate ships before reps land. If you eliminate Alpha strikes then what is stopping half the people who used to fly Alpha ships, from flying Logi. You end up with 2 unkillable fleets fighting each other...which makes the change redundant.
Thats my 2 cents on your issues Good Luck in your campaign!
Thank you. I have no further arguments for the first half of your post. The voting could go either way but at least if we tried a new system then we tried.
Possibly the energy spread trick could be linked to the logi? They could sacrifice one or maybe two high slots to be used as absorb slots instead and lock onto targets with them. Any damage to them would be shared with the logi locked on.
Example:
The FC is yellow boxed by 100 Tengus that are all doing 1000 volley and he has a pure 85k EHP with 0% resists for the purpose of making the example simple. Now with 100 000 damage incoming, he would be completely wiped out in one shot. However, he warns the logistics and some (say 10/25) of them are quick enough to lock him with the absorb damage module, some of them are already damaged and don't risk it, some are locking others incase of target changes, etc. So, he takes 50% of that damage and is left with 35K EHP. The ten logi each take 5 000 direct damage, since it is a module on their ship that is relaying the damage it is direct and by passed their resists. Now they will have to repair each other, repair the further DPS the FC will take, turn offsome of their absorb modules to not die themselves and are doing this while only being 75% as effective at repairing as they were before.
... but they saved their FC and the fight goes on.
Edit: Now like previously you can argue that a fleet of 100 logi would keep one guy alive and you would end up with two fleet like that, however, EVE players find the counters. For example, more damage, attacking the logi, laughing at how little damage the other side does or jamming the logi with ECM.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
970
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Posted - 2014.12.13 18:38:09 -
[35] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Now like previously you can argue that a fleet of 100 logi would keep one guy alive and you would end up with two fleet like that, however, EVE players find the counters. For example, more damage per second and less volley, attacking the logi, laughing at how little damage the other side does or jamming the logi with ECM.
But the same can be said of the current metrics in game to limit Alpha, there are a pile of ways to mitigate Alpha damage, one current method that is being enjoyed in large fleets currently is heavy focus on EWAR namely Damps. If you can spread damps on enough ships to the point they can no longer target your fleet with any reliability then you have already reduced the effectiveness of an Alpha doctrine. On the other side of the coin you can apply those same damps to Logi and reduce their effectiveness in engagements where you are not in an Alpha fleet.
I personally don't see the issue requiring any large change because ultimately the problem will always come down to N+1, Regardless of the mechanics at work Group A and Group B are bound to the same rule set, and thus in an everything being equal environment at the end of the day the only difference is who can bring more dudes to a fight.
As for the idea itself of limited targeting or spreading of damage, I think it is quite gimmicky. I don't see the "realism" in a ship taking hits for other ships, or inversed, ships damages being mitigated based on the number of ships firing at others. In my honest opinion the balance is there already, and if you bring the wrong fleet to the wrong engagement then that is the chance you take when you undock and engage. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
596
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Posted - 2014.12.13 19:19:44 -
[36] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: But the same can be said of the current metrics in game to limit Alpha, ...
.... and so Tengu fleet vs Tengu fleet .... Ishtar fleet vs Ishtar fleet.
Current meta but eHP and damage are the two you keep going for. Passive tanks, active tanks, etc there are so many varieties never mind ships that are entirely side lined because they pop far too easily.
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Migui X'hyrrn
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
161
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Posted - 2014.12.13 21:00:38 -
[37] - Quote
> For null sec voting blocks to have less power.
Do you hate democracy?
If Nullsec has too much power it is because Nullsec, along with w-bros and lowsec are the ones that care about this game enough to engage into spacepolitics and influence the gameplay.
Most people in highsec play EVE like if the ships around them were part of the landscape, they wouldn't even notice if EVE became offline.
So why would we have to give the power to people that essentially want to kill this game slowly? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
596
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Posted - 2014.12.13 22:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:Do you hate democracy? I think democracy in the real world is a farce. The most gullible people vote for a few charismatic faces that don't care about them. We have no voting power of the bureacracy and no real way to stop the corporations that control and bribe them. The next step would be some form of technocracy.
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:If Nullsec has too much power it is because Nullsec, along with w-bros and lowsec are the ones that care about this game enough to engage into spacepolitics and influence the gameplay. My contention is that they are simply formed into bigger groups with a few recognisable people within them. Why high-sec doesn't manage this could be down to many reasons, such as the systems being too barren or they don't face enough conflict or there are not enough defendable pipes and dead ends or or or.
Worm Holes are split off from each other, they are like tribes in a jungle who if they meet anyone else there automatically have to assume they are hostile. They can't form friendships with their neighbours because their links keep changing.
Low Sec .... well that is just a waste land. Considering the number of systems and the population, it is worse than null sec.
I am not sure how to make low sec more sustainable and I do not think there is a cure for Worm Holes but I do believe that they should have tools to give them all a fighting chance and null sec will have access to the very same tools. It will be impartial in that way.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
596
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Posted - 2014.12.14 02:30:02 -
[39] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:...I think the defences need to reflect that when we live in a world of cheap ganking .
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
1432
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Posted - 2014.12.14 15:40:29 -
[40] - Quote
I'm not sure why I find myself partially quoted here. The original post was based on if the bowhead was fit for the purposes that CCP was promoting it for. |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
601
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Posted - 2014.12.14 19:05:57 -
[41] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:I'm not sure why I find myself partially quoted here. The original post was based on if the bowhead was fit for the purposes that CCP was promoting it for.
So you don't believe that ganking is very cheap?
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
1432
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Posted - 2014.12.15 05:03:10 -
[42] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:So you don't believe that ganking is very cheap?
I believe that if you have to go quoting partial sentences out of a post I made more than a month ago to back your point then you need to learn to present a better argument. Presenting arguments is of course the primary role of the CSM, the election of who is what this part of the forum is dedicated to :)
Anyway, I consider this to be a likely troll candidacy, and as such, having dealt with the issue of a barely-in-context quote, I shall retire from posting any more to it. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
605
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Posted - 2014.12.15 11:47:11 -
[43] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:I believe that if you have to go quoting partial sentences out of a post I made more than a month ago to back your point then you need to learn to present a better argument.
Sorry you feel that way.
a) This is not a troll candidacy. I really am this crazy. "I don't suffer from insanity - I enjoy every moment of it."
b) I would like to point out that I : i) Sent you a mail with a link so you would know that you had been quoted. ii) Have in the un-edited post a link back to the original for the full thread and context, so it is not partical, it is brief.
(Can you imagine how long winded non-fiction would become if no one could use citations but had to quote the entirety of books and chapters?)
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1366
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Thanks for your reply, Jen. I share your frustration with D-scan as currently implemented. But I'd rather see it improved, and then taught to new players, than add some odd new damage-ablation mechanics.
Mario Putzo wrote:As for Alpha, any reduction to it should be met by an equal nerf to logistics, as the only way to counter the logistical capability of fleets is to use enough Alpha to eliminate ships before reps land. If you eliminate Alpha strikes then what is stopping half the people who used to fly Alpha ships, from flying Logi. You end up with 2 unkillable fleets fighting each other...which makes the change redundant.
I agree with this in principle, insofar as logi is as silly as it is now because fleet alpha is silly, too.
I don't know how much would change in practice, though. Have I told anyone about the time we engaged our 8 (6 DPS/2 logi) to someone else's 12 (8 DPS/4 logi) on a WH, and my scout in the hostile hole watched as they warped in 8 more logi, ready to jump in case we actually managed to bread the 4 they already had? Except for one run in Nagas, we weren't flying alpha ships, either.
So I'd say that risk aversion is already enough of a problem that nerfing logi along with a nerf to alpha won't change anything substantially.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
608
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Posted - 2014.12.16 03:11:09 -
[45] - Quote
I thought the absorb module was a rather good idea, reducing alpha > all and logi repps at the same time.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
524
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:34:36 -
[46] - Quote
Interesting idea on the Orca and Rorqual, makes sense especially with the jump fatigue and range reductions.
Democracy is currently a farce in most of the West, we have no hopers in positions of power who hate their own people, the only place in Europe that has a functioning democracy at this point is Switzerland and that is because they have a binding system of referendums that gives the people some power to rein in their political class, and wow the people have actually been sensible.
The vote for none of these is rather large in real life and in Eve, so again an interesting idea, I don't vote in teh CSM because doing so would give it legitimacy, even though I do feel at times they ahve done some good things, but many have a viewpoint I do not agree with, so your suggestion would enable me to vote.
I like your comments in the mining hate thread, the key point is that there needs to be a buff to consequences for suicide ganking, I have suggested -10 to remove docking rights, but there may be others that work.
Well so far you have my support.
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1378
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Posted - 2014.12.18 19:56:53 -
[47] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I thought the absorb module was a rather good idea, reducing alpha > all and logi repps at the same time.
I don't think it's a bad idea in and of itself; I'm just wondering why you prefer it to better leveraging the tools that are already in the game?
I've also wondered about ablative effects, specifically as a way to allow active-tanked ships to be viable in fleets.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
622
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Posted - 2014.12.20 05:36:17 -
[48] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Well so far you have my support.
Thank you, much appreciated.
Dersen Lowery wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea in and of itself; I'm just wondering why you prefer it to better leveraging the tools that are already in the game?
I've also wondered about ablative effects, specifically as a way to allow active-tanked ships to be viable in fleets.
I think the absorb would be complimentary to other tools. For example, a damp ship could use more damp modules and have less tank knowing that some logi will be absorbing a lot of the damage. The problem with a lot of tools is that you are weighing them off against your tank usually if you are a shield tanked (armour could have a bit more damage and speed). So, a fleet of Ravens for the sake of example, would probably only have 1 damp each. Now if there were 50 of them + logi and they meet 100 Tengus, the damps are pretty useless to them. a) Because the Tengus can probably fire from range beyond the damps b) Because they only have enough damps for 1/2 of their opposing team.
However, say you have Blackbirds for some reason in the fleet, they could have in their six mid slots, shield extender, invul, prop mod and three damps. Now say you have 10 of them and 40 Ravents + logi, that would be 70 damps, far better odds. They black birds could actually surive long enough to do some good.
As for active tanking, I had a suggestion thread where the shield amplifier would be able to convert some of the damage energy into shield energy, so the more that are firing on you the more resistance you have. They would need a few very high damage ships to take them out.
Another option is for the active tankers to be able to store some energy from logi, just buffer up their shields or thicken their armour temporarily.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
628
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Posted - 2014.12.22 05:15:53 -
[49] - Quote
This is one reason I will not live in a worm hole again. Frigate holes are just the most ridiculous thing. I couldn't believe it when people first told me about them. Thought it was some sort of joke.
Now D-scan immune ships coming? Is the incredibly low populations in worm holes not acting as some sort of indicator to CCP that something is wrong there?
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
644
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Posted - 2014.12.24 02:18:20 -
[50] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Well so far you have my support.
... and you have my support. Thank you for taking the time to write this piece.
D-scan immunity is a shiny idea but it is too shiny and people aren't seeing past it to how it will impact on the game.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
651
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Posted - 2014.12.26 06:05:24 -
[51] - Quote
Full thread here
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:As it stands, mining ships and industrials are things ... to be slaughtered, easily.
You don't need a new ship with more yield. You need a ship that does not have to run all the time from every silly little three man gang of destroyers or interceptors and waste time docking / undocking and sitting in stations. It is all those cycles you keep losing and cans being shot by a few brats in a tantrum that is losing you so much potential ore.
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
656
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Posted - 2014.12.26 18:10:48 -
[52] - Quote
Have to love this community.
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1166
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Posted - 2014.12.27 08:07:25 -
[53] - Quote
Serious question.
Do you hate babies like Sabriz does? Or do you understand that babies never ever cry and scream for no good reason and simply have no other way of communicating their needs and problems?
I am definitely not going to vote for a human being that is so low and hatefull as to think that babies scream for no other reason than "just so".
Thanks. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
668
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Posted - 2014.12.28 04:55:25 -
[54] - Quote
Sol Project wrote:Do you ... think that babies scream for no other reason than "just so".
Whether I do or do not won't change my ability as a CSM nor should it reflect on Sabriz overly much. However, to answer, crying takes effort and that requires motivation; attention, food, discomfort for examples.
Now, onto a topick everyone loves:
Cloaks.
We can see when structures are going online right across the system. SOV holders needs a structure they can online and wipes out all cloaks for a given time.
Give plenty of warning to cloakers to log off or run. A way to annoy them as much as they bug us.
Edit: Can even announce it in Local: "De-cloaker coming online in xx minutes"
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
674
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Posted - 2014.12.30 01:42:20 -
[55] - Quote
First post updated somewhat.
I like Shakira's voice, some people boycott her because of her beliefs. They are irrelevant, I feel she is good at her profession.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2148
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Posted - 2014.12.30 01:47:31 -
[56] - Quote
I don't think either Jen or Sabriz have any issue in dealing with newer folk who are eager to learn. Any baby labeling is likely to be pointing out that a person is being difficult to work with. But this is a forum post about Jenshae Chiroptera, not Sabriz Adoudel.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
675
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Posted - 2014.12.30 01:57:12 -
[57] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I don't think either Jen or Sabriz have any issue in dealing with newer folk who are eager to learn.
Oh. I might have missed his meaning. This would throw some context on his comments then.
I certainly don't have anything against new people, I used to run a group in AO that was focused on helping new players; bit like EVE university.
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
359
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Posted - 2014.12.30 02:15:17 -
[58] - Quote
1. I think your negative voting analysis is flawed. I see it as a tool that has the potential to be used by bigger blocks to exert more control over the CSM. I am willing to wager that 90% of the down votes on reddit are from people who do not have an active Eve Online account (reddit being the closest system I can imagine to the one you are proposing)
2. If a player chooses to load racial BS 1 into a skill queue and then go and play GTA or minecraft until the skill is learned in game, making the skill queue longer or deeper will not help them. Providing more in game information on how ships can be used and their weaknesses and strengths to new players will be more beneficial than inserting extra time sinks.
3. I don't think alpha is major problem in large scale fleet fights. FCs like alpha because it is a counter to logistics that can be used by the vast majority of pilots, where as jamming, damping etc are more specialised roles, thus forming a fleet of 250 takes much less time if the doctrines used are cookie cutter simple. Nerfing alpha will mean a shift in the blob that creates a new OP that suits the blob.
4. Your logistics absorb module has ramifications for high security space that I do not think you have thought about.
5. Wormholes were designed as a niche entity - creating more and creating ones specifically for frigates will help create new niches. I think the frig holes are a counter to unscannable recons. The change allows easier hunting of loot pi+Ķatas while providing a safer option for wh newbies.
6. I believe your assumptions regarding ganking are incorrect, ganking has become harder over the last 5 years with insurance removal, concord changes, while mining ships and haulers have received buffs that enable a competent pilot a greater ability to influence the outcome of any conflict.
7. I am not sure why clocking needs changing. How is it broken?
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
675
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Posted - 2014.12.30 02:30:17 -
[59] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:1. Negative votes 2. Newbies in T1 battleships 3. Alpha 4. Absorb Module 5. Wormholes 6. Ganking 7. Cloaking 1. It is two fold. Need announcements as local "MoTD" and on the launcher of the possibility. Only way to really know is to try it. 2. Having some skill requirements such as for T2 tank modules, would give them more of an indictator and if they are playing actively by them more time to learn. 3. Check fleet compositions. Note how in the news whole wings and fleets of Ewar are blown away. 4. I have written in various places about fleet mechanics and coalitions being recognised in the mechanics. 5. Worm holes weren't even meant to be settled. The strength was that you could stick a growing corp / alliance in there as an incubator, control access and grow. Now you can't keep the scanning ships out so all the small entities have no hope. 6. Look at a kill board. 7. AFK hot droppers.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
696
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:26:53 -
[60] - Quote
Have one of those AFK hot droppers in my home system now. So, I am either going to do something else in EVE, such as join a PVP fleet, (not really in the mood) or I will just go play another game. I would rather completely deny mentally challenged people like that a kill. You can argue that players should find a solution, then you will argue about how many people a null sec system can support .... and who the heck wants to keep many people on standby just to deal with one little attention deficient child?
If I have enough days like this, I simply suspend my account. I can not believe that CCP haven't found a solution to this in all these years.
Before one of those children says it; yes I am mad, mad as a hatter.
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