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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
681
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Posted - 2014.12.04 05:56:37 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so T2 ships are limited by only having 2 rig slots.
However, even though they're much more advanced ships, you still can't fit more than one T2 rig in most cases.
My suggestion is simple...
Give all T2 ships a role bonus that makes all rigs require 200 calibration points.
This would give t2 ships some sort of specialty bonus that pirate, t1, and t3 ships don't have.
Considering t2 ships are supposed to have specialized roles, while everything else is more versatile, I think this bonus would allow them to be even more focused on the specialized roles...
It sounds balanced in my head, considering a t2 rig vs a t1 isn't that much more buff, plus the lack of a 3rd rig slot. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
718
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Posted - 2014.12.04 06:16:33 -
[2] - Quote
Ummm...huhhhhhh... what?
All t2 ships have 2 rig slots.
Proposal: all rigs on t2 ships take 200 Calibration.
Now a quick glace at eft shows me all t2 ships have 400 base calibration from what I can tell.
So what the serious **** is making all rigs take up 200 calibration going to do, other than allow fitting two of the rare rig with over 200 base calibration?
Edit: So basically you want to be able to fit 2 t2 scanning rigs to your scanning ship, but you don't have the callibration, so you want to change the whole system, adding a special role bonus to dozens of ships just to let you fit 2 of a rig who's calibration was specifically set over 200 to PREVENT you from fitting two of them?
No |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2022
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Posted - 2014.12.04 06:19:36 -
[3] - Quote
Tech 2 ships are supposed to have reduced flexibility, and tech 2 modules are supposed to be fully compatible with tech 1 ships.
I feel like the increased calibration cost of T2 rigs is completely pointless because the slightly increased bonuses already come with a far higher market value. Some or even most rigs cost so little calibration that their T2 counterparts' cost increase is barely noticeable, while there are T2 rigs of which you can't fit two of when you can fit two of the T1 version.
I think it would be better to remove the calibration cost bonus of T2 rigs. Might be interesting to instead offer variant rigs (in both T1 and T2) with increased bonuses that come with heftier penalties as well as increased calibration cost.
Here's an example rig (and one I think needs a buff anyway): Medium Reinforced Anti-EM Pump I * Calibration: -100 * Armor Resist EM: +40% * Speed: -15%
Medium Reinforced Anti-EM Pump II * Calibration: -100 * Armor Resist EM: +45% * Speed: -15%
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
718
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Posted - 2014.12.04 06:31:05 -
[4] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Tech 2 ships are supposed to have reduced flexibility, and tech 2 modules are supposed to be fully compatible with tech 1 ships.
I feel like the increased calibration cost of T2 rigs is completely pointless because the slightly increased bonuses already come with a far higher market value. Some or even most rigs cost so little calibration that their T2 counterparts' cost increase is barely noticeable, while there are T2 rigs of which you can't fit two of when you can fit two of the T1 version.
I think it would be better to remove the calibration cost bonus of T2 rigs. Might be interesting to instead offer variant rigs (in both T1 and T2) with increased bonuses that come with heftier penalties as well as increased calibration cost.
The proposal is basically a thin wallpapering over a few specific rigs.
The scanning rigs, the hacking rigs, and the CPU upgrade rig.
Let's take a look at the gravity capacitor.
Say you have a base scan strength of 10. You add two t1 rigs using all your calibration. 10*1.1*1.1 = 12.1 Considerable, but ok.
OR you can use a single t2 one then have 1-2 rig slots left over for lower cal rigs. 10*1.15 = 11.5 Slightly less than 2 t1, but more open slots.
But 2 T2's gets you 10*1.15*1.15= 13.225. If a single t2 rig is 15% better, and 2 t1's are 21% better than base, 2 t2's are a whopping 32.2% better than the base version, more than half again as efficient as 2 t1's.
It's quite a massive increase. The 300 base calibration of the rig was designed SPECIFICALLY TO NOT ALLOW YOU TO DO THIS.
You can't just go tossing out restrictions right and left because you don't like them. The calibration level for these rigs is a very deliberate choice on CCP's part, not some random lefover from an older era.
P.S t2 Ships already have specced bonuses towards their uses, plus this is a change which only impacts scanners/hackers, and the t2 ships designed for those roles already have massive bonuses up and above their t1 counterparts.
TLDR: No.
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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
650
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Posted - 2014.12.04 06:43:53 -
[5] - Quote
T2 rigs more often than not have too many penalties associated with them but if you look at the 300 cal rigs, they are often increasing the base value on which modules stack from and are far more powerful than they appear.
Tech 2 rigs do have a serious supply and demand issue but they need to go further than just fluff up T2 Cal. I'd like to see T2 salvage have reproc if they can't address drop rates and there needs to be some class diversity in rigs as a whole. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
681
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Posted - 2014.12.04 07:00:27 -
[6] - Quote
With my current golem fit, I get about 60 more dps by adding that second t2 missile rig. 92 dps more than if I fitted 2 t1 rigs...
To a lot of people, that may sound significant, but when you factor my lack of versatility, it's really not that big.. It's a floating fortress.. Tank and dps... That's all it does.. All it takes is a neut and I'll be down in no time... I can't move.. Can't stop you from warping.. That's it..
In the case of other t2 ships, they're only going to fit rigs that best suit them. IE, their focused role..
The added bonuses may seem like a big deal, but with the lack of versatility, is a known factor. My added dps doesn't help against someone that has countered my role anyway, and 60 dps more in PVE is maybe 1 less single missile from my last volley. |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace Unsettled.
171
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Posted - 2014.12.04 07:14:21 -
[7] - Quote
NPC corp members should not be allowed to litter F&I with this kind of horrible nonsense.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
718
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Posted - 2014.12.04 07:15:50 -
[8] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:With my current golem fit, I get about 60 more dps by adding that second t2 missile rig. 92 dps more than if I fitted 2 t1 rigs...
To a lot of people, that may sound significant, but when you factor my lack of versatility, it's really not that big.. It's a floating fortress.. Tank and dps... That's all it does.. All it takes is a neut and I'll be down in no time... I can't move.. Can't stop you from warping.. That's it..
In the case of other t2 ships, they're only going to fit rigs that best suit them. IE, their focused role..
The added bonuses may seem like a big deal, but with the lack of versatility, is a known factor. My added dps doesn't help against someone that has countered my role anyway, and 60 dps more in PVE is maybe 1 less single missile from my last volley.
Was this supposed to be a reason to allow it? That in a single case of a Golem, It's ONLY a 5-9%ish dps boost? Which honestly sounds quite a lot from my point of view. I for one see no reason to allow a ship that already does insane damage another bonus to damage capability on top of that.
Let's take another case, that of scanners. Cause that extra 10% on say a scanning ship is a huge deal, allowing far faster scanning and making difficult to probe out targets much much easier. They certainly don't need the boost either.
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
660
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Posted - 2014.12.04 08:43:08 -
[9] - Quote
So for the sake of a few rare edge cases everything has to be changed?
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
346
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Posted - 2014.12.04 09:10:24 -
[10] - Quote
It's almost like this is how its supposed to be.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
548
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Posted - 2014.12.04 13:58:31 -
[11] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: So what the serious **** is making all rigs take up 200 calibration going to do, other than allow fitting two of the rare rig with over 200 base calibration?
Edit: So basically you want to be able to fit 2 t2 scanning rigs to your scanning ship, but you don't have the callibration, so you want to change the whole system, adding a special role bonus to dozens of ships just to let you fit 2 of a rig who's calibration was specifically set over 200 to PREVENT you from fitting two of them?
No
Aww c'mon give this idea a chance. He wants tis for pve and scanning it seems. I have a few t2 ships in mind for pvp that would love 2 shooty t2 rigs. The "good" ones usually you only get 1 t2 on. I would not use this to try for op fits, I swear lol.
Whats also funny is if I remember the stacking math correctly if ship is bonused for scanning to start, and you have scanning mods in lows (why wouldn't you...many asked for that for years) they are actually better off 1 t2 scanning rig and some other type of rig once stacking penalty hits.
I would have to dig up the math I saw from someone whose numbers looked real legit but when the scanning changes hit in a patch long ago I rerigged my probers to be 1 t2 rig since my usual setup of 2 t1's with stacking was showing to be less effective, if not worse off. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
650
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 16:06:45 -
[12] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:With my current golem fit, I get about 60 more dps by adding that second t2 missile rig. 92 dps more than if I fitted 2 t1 rigs...
To a lot of people, that may sound significant, but when you factor my lack of versatility, it's really not that big.. It's a floating fortress.. Tank and dps... That's all it does.. All it takes is a neut and I'll be down in no time... I can't move.. Can't stop you from warping.. That's it..
In the case of other t2 ships, they're only going to fit rigs that best suit them. IE, their focused role..
The added bonuses may seem like a big deal, but with the lack of versatility, is a known factor. My added dps doesn't help against someone that has countered my role anyway, and 60 dps more in PVE is maybe 1 less single missile from my last volley.
You mention the issue I have with rigs and T2 Rigs. Most of them are focus role, module enhancements and carry outside the class of the focus role. From large Logi rigs for battleship logi that don't exist to Capital salvage tackle rigs for those Dreadnaught Salvage boats we see all the time.
The penalties also tend to show prejudice. Tracking disruption rigs on a Pilgrim or Sensor damps on an Arazu makes sense. Shield penalty is not a penalty. Astronautics rigs reduce armor as another example and the slowest of the 4 races are Armor tanks so they get used to make ships that already go faster, go faster? Ships that also can't hit at high speeds because of their native weapons?
short version, 90% of rigs were designed to not be used in a game where you don't do stuff. The calibration cost on its own is not the issue. There are multiple reasons to not stack or even use rigs. It's why we see Salvage in two extreme categories. Pure junk or super expensive. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
722
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:25:59 -
[13] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: Aww c'mon give this idea a chance. He wants tis for pve and scanning it seems. I have a few t2 ships in mind for pvp that would love 2 shooty t2 rigs. The "good" ones usually you only get 1 t2 on. I would not use this to try for op fits, I swear lol.
Whats also funny is if I remember the stacking math correctly if ship is bonused for scanning to start, and you have scanning mods in lows (why wouldn't you...many asked for that for years) they are actually better off 1 t2 scanning rig and some other type of rig once stacking penalty hits.
I would have to dig up the math I saw from someone whose numbers looked real legit but when the scanning changes hit in a patch long ago I rerigged my probers to be 1 t2 rig since my usual setup of 2 t1's with stacking was showing to be less effective, if not worse off.
Just a heads up, the order of stacking penalties always goes from most powerful effect to least powerful effect.
So if you have a 40% and a 50% mod on a ship, then say slap a 10% mod, the 10% mod is calculated last, after the 50% and then the 40%, regardless of the order you put them on the ship. Whoever you saw the math from is a bit flaky.
From a pure scanning strength standpoint, 2 t1 rigs are slightly better than 1 t2, regardless of if they are the first two stacking penalty mod or the 20th.
Not much though. I also use a t2 scanning rig then a hyperspace rig to get zip around the system faster. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
681
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 16:56:35 -
[14] - Quote
Sooo, has the topic become more an idea on having more rig choices?
IE, velocity rigs that take from shields instead of armor (which makes sense when you think about it)
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
420
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Posted - 2014.12.04 17:18:21 -
[15] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:From a pure scanning strength standpoint, 2 t1 rigs are slightly better than 1 t2, regardless of if they are the first two stacking penalty mod or the 20th. This isn't entirely true. A GCU II and a SRA II will give you better scan res than two GCU Is and an SRA II.
Now, if you aren't using an SRA, sure, the two t1 rigs are better. But then, you aren't seriously probing then, are you? |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
650
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 17:25:42 -
[16] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sooo, has the topic become more an idea on having more rig choices?
IE, velocity rigs that take from shields instead of armor (which makes sense when you think about it)
T2 weapons rigs work well with 4 slot weapons racks like Golem and even Paladin but you are forced to fit resist tanks because the PG penalty will eliminate a buffer tank. So while flat line, cal on a T2 hull seems like a novel idea you would find that it just exposes other barriers by doing it. |
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