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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
813
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Posted - 2014.12.09 10:47:50 -
[1] - Quote
Just a sketch of an idea whilst bored waiting for a script to run at work...
Make command modules an active targeted module in a new hislot on Warfare Linked enabled ships only. The module applies the bonuses from the links to the targeted ship. Next introduce new link capable 'command' ships into each ship level, so CS frig, CS destroyer etc. Each ship would have a defined number of link capable hislots. So a frig would have 5 sots to allow them to support a squad and so on. The command link passes bonuses down the chain to targeted ships.
In effect command links become a range governed active module that are spider linked throughout the fleet. I also toyed with the idea that the links are cumulative so squad leader adds some bonus to squad members (benefits small gangs), this is amplified by links incoming from next ship up applying link to the squad leader. Only the highest multiplier would be applied so if a dedicated CS and a destroyer CS both targeted the frig squad leader only the dedicated CS bonus would apply.
The idea is probably a bit scrambled but hopefully gets the key points across:
Warfare links become targeted range controlled modules
Warfare links must be managed correctly for best use
bonuses are spread throughout the fleet, losing one ship doesn't kill boosts...adding one ship doesn't make the fleet impossible to counter.
Links can be effective even in small gang warfare, promotes good squad structuring on co-op play.
Script completed (and failed :( )...back to work... |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
635
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Posted - 2014.12.09 10:58:10 -
[2] - Quote
Squad is 10 strong, no ship has that amount of high slots. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
813
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Posted - 2014.12.09 11:03:54 -
[3] - Quote
Squad numbers can be changed if need be, it's more the principle of the idea I was putting forward not exact numbers/mechanics. Besides which the squad leader would just take a wing man and apply boosts across the 10 between them or somthing similar... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
560
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Posted - 2014.12.09 13:13:42 -
[4] - Quote
If you really want to force them on grid, simply add a beacon people can warp to as a result of the links being up.
So yeah technically you can be off grid but you're rather exposed and better with the fleet.
Job done. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
813
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Posted - 2014.12.09 13:22:16 -
[5] - Quote
Still makes it a case of kill one ship and all links drop. I prefer the idea of having the links spread across the fleet and needing to degrade the enmies fleet capability rather than some giant CS shaped on/off switch...but it would be a very fast way to fix the on-grid issue :D |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
115
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Posted - 2014.12.09 15:00:22 -
[6] - Quote
The classical problem with this sort of stuff is that people always seem to forget that links arent JUST a pvp thing, Incursions and some other high end PVE stuff also "require" them to be ran successfully and so far i have yet to see a variant of this that doesn't just wipe high end pve stuff.
I mean the ganks on incursion boosters would be hilarious for code even if they cant ***** on the killmails direct but...
Yeah I stand horribly unconvinced... Bring your own boosts and then you have your counter, not ideal but there are many things in eve without a "good" counter mechanically... |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
294
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Posted - 2014.12.09 15:17:51 -
[7] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:The classical problem with this sort of stuff is that people always seem to forget that links arent JUST a pvp thing, Incursions and some other high end PVE stuff also "require" them to be ran successfully and so far i have yet to see a variant of this that doesn't just wipe high end pve stuff.
I mean the ganks on incursion boosters would be hilarious for code even if they cant ***** on the killmails direct but...
Yeah I stand horribly unconvinced... Bring your own boosts and then you have your counter, not ideal but there are many things in eve without a "good" counter mechanically...
Umm....add a couple logi pilots. Problem solved.
Links being off grid is absolutely brutal for pvpers, especially true soloers, not those elite "solo" linked guys. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
561
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 15:27:30 -
[8] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:The classical problem with this sort of stuff is that people always seem to forget that links arent JUST a pvp thing, Incursions and some other high end PVE stuff also "require" them to be ran successfully and so far i have yet to see a variant of this that doesn't just wipe high end pve stuff.
I mean the ganks on incursion boosters would be hilarious for code even if they cant ***** on the killmails direct but...
Yeah I stand horribly unconvinced... Bring your own boosts and then you have your counter, not ideal but there are many things in eve without a "good" counter mechanically...
PvE doesnt matter a hoot if there's a warpable beacon. NPCs ain't that smart ;) |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1391
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 15:35:01 -
[9] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:The classical problem with this sort of stuff is that people always seem to forget that links arent JUST a pvp thing, Incursions and some other high end PVE stuff also "require" them to be ran successfully and so far i have yet to see a variant of this that doesn't just wipe high end pve stuff.
I mean the ganks on incursion boosters would be hilarious for code even if they cant ***** on the killmails direct but...
Yeah I stand horribly unconvinced... Bring your own boosts and then you have your counter, not ideal but there are many things in eve without a "good" counter mechanically...
You can run any incursion site without link. You just have to adapt your fits.
"Oh noes!! I have to run a 4 slot tank instead of only 3 on my pirate BS!!!
Such a tragedy it would be... |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1391
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Posted - 2014.12.09 15:50:17 -
[10] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Still makes it a case of kill one ship and all links drop. I prefer the idea of having the links spread across the fleet and needing to degrade the enmies fleet capability rather than some giant CS shaped on/off switch...but it would be a very fast way to fix the on-grid issue :D
The problem with links being in one ship is how easy to spot the ship is, not the fact that they are given by a single ship. If people made a doctrine based on command ship for example, who would you headshot first?
The leadership boost should be given by the pilot when placed in a command position in the fleet because he is a trained commander, not because he gimped himself by flying in a ship with a target painted on him. It's like walking on the frontline with a parade uniform for an officer.
1- Make boost given based on position in the fleet 2- Make all player with a weapon timer un-able to swap position in the command line.
Booster on grid won't work as long as you can identify them just by the overview. No matter how tanky, fast, small, big or anything else, if they are identifiable as easily as they are now on grid, you are **** out of luck and it will always be broken. |
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Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
96
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Posted - 2014.12.09 19:33:43 -
[11] - Quote
Boosts are fine as is =). Get your own or find someone who has them. |
Fondon
Safe Industries
48
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Posted - 2014.12.09 20:41:33 -
[12] - Quote
offgrid boosting doesn't make any sense. It requires one account idling.
I like the idea of a more active approach as the op suggested. Offgrid boosting could be done by a POS mod or a new deployable structure while leaving an actual player boost his fleet by playing the game. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 20:56:57 -
[13] - Quote
t3 destroyers are out, and can easily fit an expanded probe launcher, OGBs are going to be easier to probe and pop than ever. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1759
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Posted - 2014.12.09 21:09:24 -
[14] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:t3 destroyers are out, and can easily fit an expanded probe launcher, OGBs are going to be easier to probe and pop than ever. Except for the fact that a T3 destroyer can't probe out the classic OGB because it's probes aren't powerful enough. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
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Posted - 2014.12.09 21:20:09 -
[15] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote:t3 destroyers are out, and can easily fit an expanded probe launcher, OGBs are going to be easier to probe and pop than ever. Except for the fact that a T3 destroyer can't probe out the classic OGB because it's probes aren't powerful enough.
They'll still be able to find command ship boosters. Specialized t3 boosts should require a specialized ship to probe. They're less powerful than command ship boosts, and the tradeoff is that they're more elusive. |
Rino007
2
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Posted - 2014.12.09 21:25:23 -
[16] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh] Booster on grid won't work as long as you can identify them just by the overview. No matter how tanky, fast, small, big or anything else, if they are identifiable as easily as they are now on grid, you are **** out of luck and it will always be broken.
There is a way to fix them. If you first diminish all offensive capabilities (except links) and then ramp up their resistances considerably, increasing their respective tanking style's buffer, reduce their signature significantly, make them faster , and most importantly make them heavily resistant to neutralization. This would mean that their whole purpose is focused on "Staying alive, providing boosts" rather than any dps they're capable of, also allowing a much stronger tank buffer to prevent them from being outright alpha'd. Of course we can't go too far with this level of a defensiveness, since we want them to be able to go boom, but we also don't want them to go boom too fast if they are on grid.
Another fix to this may be to have a way to track where they are when the ships are providing links, besides probing (something specific and unique to the class of ship). This would allow them to be off grid, but anyone you are fighting would have the ability to track them down to scare them off/ kill them. This wouldn't solve hiding near a pos and letting the pos protect you however, unless there was a trigger within X distance of a pos that links can't be activated within X distance of a pos. But that could be a non trivial fix, however I feel there may be enough players bothered by this that it would warrant the staff allocation. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
818
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 22:38:17 -
[17] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Still makes it a case of kill one ship and all links drop. I prefer the idea of having the links spread across the fleet and needing to degrade the enmies fleet capability rather than some giant CS shaped on/off switch...but it would be a very fast way to fix the on-grid issue :D The problem with links being in one ship is how easy to spot the ship is, not the fact that they are given by a single ship. If people made a doctrine based on command ship for example, who would you headshot first? The leadership boost should be given by the pilot when placed in a command position in the fleet because he is a trained commander, not because he gimped himself by flying in a ship with a target painted on him. It's like walking on the frontline with a parade uniform for an officer. 1- Make boost given based on position in the fleet 2- Make all player with a weapon timer un-able to swap position in the command line. Booster on grid won't work as long as you can identify them just by the overview. No matter how tanky, fast, small, big or anything else, if they are identifiable as easily as they are now on grid, you are **** out of luck and it will always be broken.
I actually prefer boosts to be fed down through the pilots in fleet positions rather than by modules but thought this would guarantee that boosters were on grid since if it is only fed through the leader positions then all the leaders could simply hide off grid. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1760
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 00:01:36 -
[18] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote: They'll still be able to find command ship boosters. Specialized t3 boosts should require a specialized ship to probe. They're less powerful than command ship boosts, and the tradeoff is that they're more elusive.
By less powerful it's like 0.5% difference once everything is added up, so everyone using a roaming booster still uses T3's as far as I know since they can't be probed by 99.9% of people. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 01:06:43 -
[19] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote: They'll still be able to find command ship boosters. Specialized t3 boosts should require a specialized ship to probe. They're less powerful than command ship boosts, and the tradeoff is that they're more elusive.
By less powerful it's like 0.5% difference once everything is added up, so everyone using a roaming booster still uses T3's as far as I know since they can't be probed by 99.9% of people.
It's actually about 4.5% on the strength of the link module itself with the big difference being 4 for a non nullified t3, three links for a nullified t3, and 7 links for max boost command ship. Command ships are no longer as suitable for evading combat probes, and t3s require high grade implants and faction modules to achieve this level of evasiveness. They have a high SP threshold to be effective, have a 2 in 5 chance of losing a 5 day skill.
Characters with scanning skills are more prevalent than ever, since the exploration changes, are fairly safe to use in lowsec, and have about a third of the skill point requirements of a booster, and cost less than a fourth of a correctly fit booster, when implants and ships are considered, don't have SP loss, and have utility outside of being able to find boost toons.
Boosters aren't as powerful as you think, aren't as hard to find as you think, take more more effort to establish than you think, and are lost more often than you think. It's fine if you don't like them, but don't makes things up if you don't know, and stop telling people that they're losing fights because of boosts. If boosts are removed they'll whine about perma MWDing orthrus' or some other foolishness next and demand that it's nerfed.
What's next? You're mad that my dread toon can do more dps than 40 members of my subcap support against a sov structure? Or that a jump freighter can move cargo right past your bubble camp? Specialization a a part of this game it, has benefits and downsides. Deal with it. If you don't want to do it but you want some of it's benefits fly with a group of players that can support you.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1391
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Posted - 2014.12.10 20:43:49 -
[20] - Quote
Rino007 wrote:
There is a way to fix them. If you first diminish all offensive capabilities (except links) and then ramp up their resistances considerably, increasing their respective tanking style's buffer, reduce their signature significantly, make them faster , and most importantly make them heavily resistant to neutralization. This would mean that their whole purpose is focused on "Staying alive, providing boosts" rather than any dps they're capable of, also allowing a much stronger tank buffer to prevent them from being outright alpha'd. Of course we can't go too far with this level of a defensiveness, since we want them to be able to go boom, but we also don't want them to go boom too fast if they are on grid.
Another fix to this may be to have a way to track where they are when the ships are providing links, besides probing (something specific and unique to the class of ship). This would allow them to be off grid, but anyone you are fighting would have the ability to track them down to scare them off/ kill them. This wouldn't solve hiding near a pos and letting the pos protect you however, unless there was a trigger within X distance of a pos that links can't be activated within X distance of a pos. But that could be a non trivial fix, however I feel there may be enough players bothered by this that it would warrant the staff allocation.
1- Bigger fleet would still wreck them too fast. The very reason why I said making them more tanky does not work is because the solution has to both be viable for small and large fleet. If you make them tanky from a small fleet perspective, it gets wrecked by large fleet. If you make it tanky by large fleet standard, it never ever gets killed by small ones.
2- Building another system sill enabling off grid boosting is just stupid. We take a problem and only push it a bit further. Stuff that have an effect on a fight should be on grid. It's a simple as that. |
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