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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1089
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Posted - 2014.12.15 22:14:44 -
[211] - Quote
https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/ccpclothing
the sound cloud (big thanks to mike azariah for sorting that)
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7380
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Posted - 2014.12.15 22:52:58 -
[212] - Quote
Thanks guys. Keep up the good work.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6516
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Posted - 2014.12.15 23:55:13 -
[213] - Quote
I assume rings would be part of an accessories addition-- gloves, rings, implants that are specifically hands, etc. It would probably require a fair bit of implementation work, though, and clipping would be a concern, depending the margins the models use for sleeves. :x
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27392
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Posted - 2014.12.16 00:01:20 -
[214] - Quote
please, just.. stop talking makoto
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
66
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Posted - 2014.12.16 04:22:23 -
[215] - Quote
All I want :
* Serpentis and Mordu's Legion outlaw outfits.
* Proper colors on the Gallente specific military clothing. Turquoise is not the Gallente's color to me. Never has been, never will be. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1376
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Posted - 2014.12.16 04:26:10 -
[216] - Quote
More PVC. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
3417
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Posted - 2014.12.16 07:51:59 -
[217] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:(...)
I would like identical twins of my characters, perhaps a character resculpt variant that creates a copied appearance.
(...)
Well, on an informal request to CCP Karkur's tweet, she stated that she didn't thought that was possible. But I think that down there at the character file must be some numbers associated to the vectors applied to the control points on the base mesh (something like "control point 2 is at 0.4, -1.8, 0.9"). I am assuming there is a base mesh, which would make sense (but, !!CCP!!).
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Saint Celeste
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2014.12.16 11:34:43 -
[218] - Quote
corbexx wrote:https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/ccpclothing
the sound cloud (big thanks to mike azariah for sorting that)
thank you for posting to soundcloud for those that couldn't attend and thanks to everyone that made this possible by organizing it or doing fine details. good to hear certain things have potential for future release as was mentioned the "low hanging fruit" [of which i assume means the more likely option/s, *never heard the term before*] some things were a given that wouldn't make the cut though that wasn't necessarily worded/mentioned like so. also of some of those things that didn't make it... may be released *though again that wasn't specifically mentioned like that either* at some unknown in some distant future....well that is how i interpreted it.
most of the discussion i agreed with, some i shook my head in frustration, while other times i laughed out loud, overall it was enjoyable hearing the perspectives of other players and that of CCP Devs. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4499
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:03:34 -
[219] - Quote
Saint Celeste wrote: "low hanging fruit" [of which i assume means the more likely option/s, *never heard the term before*]
It's a relatively common phrase. Yes, it's the things which are easiest to do. (You don't pluck fruit from the top of the tree. you pluck the stuff that you can reach the most easily, because it's the lowest in the tree)
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1097
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:23:48 -
[220] - Quote
the other thing that was nice was that the devs had not only looked and checked out the results of the survey, but a couple had also actually filled it in as well.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3417
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:30:40 -
[221] - Quote
Hey, could someone be so kind to summarize what items were brought up as "low hanging fruit" and what others are unlikely to happen?
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Cosmic Girl96
Red Swords
37
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:40:14 -
[222] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:More PVC.
Haha yes!! Its nice to see people who think like I do about this matter.
I love clothes that look like they came from a BDSM party |
Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
239
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:34:35 -
[223] - Quote
Posting in this thread to show support for the initiative and to thank corbexx for organizing this.
As for me, it would be nice to have some ethnic/tribal looking Minmatar stuff.
Also, Sibyyl for CSM. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1372
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Posted - 2014.12.16 14:49:01 -
[224] - Quote
Since we have all these pretty CSM tags in this thread: it sounds like the whole avatar side of the game is struggling with an aging-to-non-existent toolset (no surprise, really: none of it's new anymore, it was rushed, and then it was neglected). As much as I enjoy having my clothing lovingly hand-stitched by a small team of the finest Icelandic tailors, it sounds like they need a toolset in much the same way that the PVE design team needs one.
This isn't "low hanging fruit," but the existing technology is old enough that CCP should be thinking about an upgrade, or at the very least a serious refresh. I take some hope from the fact that CCP karkur thought this was worth dropping in on.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
19217
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Posted - 2014.12.16 17:43:24 -
[225] - Quote
Hi guys,
I'm sorry I missed the discussion. I was on a flight at the time. It is interesting, I could recognize a few voices on the soundcloud recording just by what they said and how they said it (Rain, Kate *cough*). EVE really is a game of people.. and I find myself attached to the people as much as to the game.
I wrote up a summary as I listened to the recording. If I am misunderstanding something, or have made an error please post a reply and I will correct it, thanks!
Attendees: mike. corbexx, Carm, Rain, Kate, Makoto, Dersen, CCP Terminus (did I forget anyone?)
CCP roles
- CCP Terminus: Populates NES with entries, NES backend, implements apparel, general game improvements and growth
- CCP Undoz: Character artist, character asset modeling and integration, veteran of CC, trailers, game assets like space station interiors
- CCP Edgeloop: On Undoz's team and creates/builds character assets and "shiny stuff"
- CCP Karkur: Fixer of defects, a legend
Key Takeaways This is what I took away from the meeting. Appreciate everyone's feedback here.
- Expanding color palettes and releasing old, unreleased clothing items may be an interesting, low effort next step to look into for CCP
- CCP is interested in clothing for scientists/engineers and more cyberpunk/classic EVE style. No promises made for future.
- Player requests for clothing is better off sticking within CCP's design choices and limitations (see below)
- CCP is satisfied with the interest shown in character creation and avatar customization. Women's Eternity and Men's Gurista outfits have been doing well.
Main discussion
- CCP does browse forums and reddit and are generally aware of what players want
- CCP has ~2 engineers working full time on the design for this portion of EVE. When we make requests as players we should keep this in mind.
- Expanding the color palette (hair, clothing) is likely a low hanging fruit which could be implemented. There may be (color-grouped) color swatch options for clothing in the future.
- Releasing unreleased clothing on SiSi could also be another low hanging fruit. Sibyyl's note: SiSi has about 2-3x the color/pattern variants that TQ has. I don't think Rain made this very clear.
- Unlocking racial clothes could be another low hanging fruit, barring effort to solve clipping issues. CCP would like to explore options where players have to access LP stores or gain standings to get access to these clothes.
- Adding backgrounds could be a low hanging fruit.
- Revamping lighting positioning or color-grading/filters on portraits may be possible.
- CCP would like to explore ways in which clothes can be further integrated into the rest of EVE (such as LP stores, standings, drops, etc.).
- CCP fully understands the feedback for more/better hair. Hair is very time intensive to implement and this will be a hurdle for more hairstyles. CCP does understand that more hairstyles will let characters differentiate from each other.
- CCP gets the feedback that players liked the classic EVE styles. Also like the idea of armor, cyberpunk, etc.
- CCP agrees with feedback on labcoats/scientist/engineer type clothing. CCP is thinking of doing something like hangar engineers wear in BSG.
- CCP has no plans to import Valkyrie or DUST clothing. It would be a lot of work to convert it.
- CCP mentioned racial blending would be cool, but did not mention any plans.
- CCP has no interest in rebooting Incarna/WiS and has no plans for it. CCP is not ready for performance/asset generation work. mike: WiS would need a better function in the game than just "emoting at people". There may be a path from DUST/Legion being successful (5-8 year window).
- CCP employees took the poll (yay!)
- Interesting tidbit: the same fellow responsible for making the monocle also had to destroy the Jita monument
CCP design choices and technical limitations
- In Karkur's words, "classy" and representative of EVE lore which is futuristic and dark. This excludes things such as bunny ears or pirate hats. CCP wants to protect the image of EVE.
- With a small design team, choices will be made to design more iconic/"special" clothing, or clothing that fits one extreme or the other since all clothing choices can't be met. For example, jackets will look like they are elaborate/formal dressup or heavy military type. Designing something that falls towards the middle, like a winter coat, is maybe not feasible with limited team size.
- Same reason as above, the pirate outfits or gunner jackets have the same base model because it is easier to implement for CCP. Making elaborate race/faction specific base models may be out of scope for the current team size.
- CCP is very interested in managing clutter in CC/NES/database so as not to overwhelm new players. With more and more assets some engineering changes will need to be made (ie: bundles in NES) before CC/NES is filled with more and more entries. One idea was to collapse color variants into a single entry (note: separate colors would still be purchased one by one)
- Some clothes, especially outerwear may not be as form fitting because they have to account for a lot of clothing combinations, including innerwear items.
- Poses will require animators and will be a bit complicated for now.
- Head items have to include a static hairstyle because designing around different hairstyles is outside of CCP's team bandwidth.
- Alliance and corp logos in portrait (filling the background) are being handled in a different manner. Will be part of adding logos to ships, etc. effort.
- Physics model (like Amarr robe for men). This is very problematic and CCP would like to avoid this.
- Unzipping and rolling up sleeves may be out of scope (model would need to be designed twice). Tucking options and provided for now.
Continued below..
Friendship is the best ship.
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
19217
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Posted - 2014.12.16 17:44:42 -
[226] - Quote
CCP design choices and technical limitations (continued)
- Limit the number of factions to narrow design scope. Can't provide an option for every NPC corp and faction.
Discussion on specific apparel
- Rain: Some Sterling shirts are unavailable. Are they locked in some high tier FW store? No.
- corbexx: Rose colored glasses. CCP will look into it.
- Kate: Pirate faction dresses look like character is pregnant. CCP response: We don't think it looks that bad, and outerwear has to account for clothing underneath.
- Carmen: Collision for hair is inaccurate, we see clipping. CCP response: Can't make the collision boxes smaller due to performance reasons.
- Carmen: Clipping on Sterling dresses for Gallente characters. CCP response: fixed!
- Carmen: Can we enable antialiasing in 3d view of character? Karkur: We may have had it disabled for performance reasons. We can look into it.
- Makoto: What about multi-color hair dyes, frosted tips, etc. No CCP comment on this. Personal comment: Some of this may not fit within EVE's style, too.
- Dersen: Can we fix smiles? CCP animation team was not on call to respond.
- Kate: Can we get clothing with less prominent logos? CCP response: We have logoless jackets, unreleased.
- Kate: Shoes without heels for women possible? CCP response: We have normal shoes on Gallente. We just didn't design these shoes. Will be considering them.
- Male shoes that are not boots? Attendees moved on and there was no response.
- Rain: Can we copy character looks, maybe through a NES certificate? CCP response: Not sure this is a high priority.
- Kate: Character was made earlier, but the skin tone is no longer available. CCP response: We had to get rid of some tones when all races were given skin tone variation. We tried to have a wide range of skin tones.
Jade Blackwind wrote: Also, Sibyyl for CSM.
I love you too, Jade <3
As I am borrowing someone's internet to be here, I have to run!
Friendship is the best ship.
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
274
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Posted - 2014.12.16 18:01:12 -
[227] - Quote
Quote:CCP is satisfied with the interest shown in character creation and avatar customization. Women's Eternity and Men's Gurista outfits have been doing well. D'uh ... was a no-brainer, especially the Eternity. ;)
Anyhow ... did my first work again after ... a while.
Next stop: High heeled sandals and shorts ... greetings to Cosmic Girl96.
Awesome information provided, thanks for writing it up Sibyyl!
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6517
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Posted - 2014.12.16 18:26:20 -
[228] - Quote
Edit; Sibyyl beat me to it, and did a better job to boot. :x
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Hey, could someone be so kind to summarize what items were brought up as "low hanging fruit" and what others are unlikely to happen?
One thing to note is that these scale. There are items that require very little additional work, items that require a bit of work, and on up it goes. Further, there are developer bandwidth issues, and bandwidth over short-term and long-term.
For instance, devs responded that new/interesting backgrounds were something that CCP could do very easily indeed-- but there's the wrinkle that they want backgrounds that better respond to lighting, which would require more development work. Depending on implementation and whether existing backgrounds are easily tweaked for a theoretical new lighting system, they may opt to not implement new backgrounds until they have a new lighting system. The low-hanging fruit may look good in the short-term, but long-term costs depend on implementation and conversion difficult.
I'm going to try to do this from a relatively short-term perspective, because that requires less consideration of variables.
Low-hanging fruit: * Rotating as-yet-unreleased colors of existing clothes through NES. To avoid clutter, this would require rotation. * New backgrounds * Releasing backlog of old avatar assets that have in fact been developed. Will require QA work and some implementation depending on how old the asset is, but still relatively easy.
Not-as-low-hanging fruit: * Covering additional minor factions with existing clothing items, such as factional variants of Sterling jackets, etc. While not as complicated as modelling new clothes, this runs into the clutter issue, and raises the question of the ideal level of granularity. * Additional skin and hair-tones. CCP had trimmed back the options marginally to reduce clutter, but also dislikes options lost. It may be that CCP'll be expanding the options again to return lost options. vOv
High fruit: * Hats. Hats are a clipping nightmare, and you'll notice that the newly-introduced headware uses a fixed hair model to avoid clipping issues. Implementation is difficult and requires a lot of jiggery-pokery to avoid a model that is either excessively frumpy, or not a clipping nightmare. * Hair. CCP both knows that new hairstyles are much needed, but admits that hair modelling is one of the most difficult things to do. vOv * Unlocking racial clothing to other races. This is seen as highly desirable, but there are questions about how to gate it so that players aren't inundated with options when they're first doing their character design, and so that racial styling doesn't go out the window. * Accessories. Mention was made of gloves, watches, rings, etc; this would require a new implementation for models on the hand. CCP, via the Impact line, has demonstrated that reskinned hands for gloves can be done. This is, what's more, how we got sleeve tattoos and leggings. The issue is whether there's an easy way to implement models without excessive risk of clipping, allowing for accessories that require models. * Shirt and jacket variations; sleeves rolled up, jackets unzipped, etc. Any significant modelling work is effectively as involved as modelling a second item. While I'm sure this is slightly an overstatement, it seems like its probably still a reasonable representation. Desirability was made clear, though, for making casual otherwise fairly formal outfits.
Forbidden fruit: * Character cloning. While this would be nifty, implementation would require a lot of work, it seems. It might be that someone finds a way via 20% time to include it, though.
Complications: * Clipping. This is the single biggest issue with authoring clothes; because of how clothes are mapped onto avatars, any new clothing item needs to be made preemptively frumpy to ensure that, for instance, pants don't clip through shirts or coats. * Developer bandwidth. The NES/avatar team is understandably a small one. They do brilliant work, but their through-put will remain limited unless there's a major push. Given that WiS is naturally not a CCP priority for any conceivable time-frame, this is likely to remain the case. * Clutter. CCP naturally dislikes having a cluttered market or character generator, as for most people an excessive number of options causes information overload and increased uncertainty. CCP currently plans to do some UI work to compress options into a color selector in the character creator UI, which may serve to free some needed UI space. Exact details on implementation weren't stated. ;)
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6517
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Posted - 2014.12.16 18:30:31 -
[229] - Quote
Oh, also. When I commented on hair, it wasn't inquiring. Rather, I was trying to lay out hair-styles that are already past their prime. :x There's a danger with excessively bold styles that in four, five years, we'll look at them and laugh.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27403
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Posted - 2014.12.16 20:02:21 -
[230] - Quote
Oh, also. When I commented on hair, it wasn't inquiring. Rather, I was trying to lay out hair-styles that are already past their prime. :x There's a danger with excessively bold styles that in four, five years, we'll look at them and laugh.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3423
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Posted - 2014.12.16 20:06:05 -
[231] - Quote
Quote:CCP has no interest in rebooting Incarna/WiS and has no plans for it. CCP is not ready for performance/asset generation work. mike: WiS would need a better function in the game than just "emoting at people". There may be a path from DUST/Legion being successful (5-8 year window).
Dunno whether they were that blunt, but comes to no surprise.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Rain6636
Perkone Caldari State
2555
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Posted - 2014.12.16 20:11:23 -
[232] - Quote
Achura are born hawt. I'm surprised when I see someone get it wrong. I would question such a person's sense for aesthetics and fashion.
#1 Fan of the Commissar Kate Fanclub || Rainf1337 on Twitch
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1101
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Posted - 2014.12.16 21:32:00 -
[233] - Quote
Well it seemed to go well, from all parties involved I've heard nothing but good things. So much so I now have to sort a write up for CCP's confluence.
I learnt loads, alot of stuff I didn't know much about, so I'm very happy about that.
What I'd like to do is potentially sort another one of these in 2 or 3 months (maybe 2 one eu 1 us tz) for another one of these.
Big thanks to Sibyyl and Makoto Priano for the writeups.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Kellie Dusette
Nighthawk Exploration Anoikis Ronin
3333
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Posted - 2014.12.16 21:35:51 -
[234] - Quote
As always, corbexx's efforts are living up to his corporation's namesake.
Noob Alt | Special Dusette | Silly Robot Arm
Collect all 4 Dusette Action Figures (Now available in Thukker Tribe Edition)
Generic Edition | *NEW Fruit Salad Pleasure Hub Edition
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27406
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Posted - 2014.12.16 22:02:50 -
[235] - Quote
To whoever listens to the soundcloud, you should be aware that Makoto consistently spoke with a tone that implied he was speaking on behalf of CCP. It would lead you to believe he is one of the CCP attendees, but he (obviously) is not. His comments may sound like definitive answers, but really it was just preventing the CCP attendees from speaking.
Obviously, the conference was not the right setting to address this, so I'm doing it here.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6521
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:10:07 -
[236] - Quote
My apologies if I took an overly-authoritative tone. It wasn't my intent. In all but one case where I crossed comms with another attendee, I gave way.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs.
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Kaaeliaa
The Vendunari End of Life
47652
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:22:22 -
[237] - Quote
I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the recording yet, but thank you CCP and to all who attended. It's nice to know that avatar gameplay isn't being neglected.
LAGL Shapeshifter, Princess of Sibyyl's Pillow Fort, Khanid Zealot Rage Queen
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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
391
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:37:20 -
[238] - Quote
Kaaeliaa wrote:I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the recording yet, but thank you CCP and to all who attended. It's nice to know that avatar gameplay isn't being neglected.
I still hold out a tiny sliver of hope that some day it will be for much more than just portraits.
Profit favors the prepared
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Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
67
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:56:03 -
[239] - Quote
Late to the party, but I think a generic coat option in simple colors which places your corp or alliance log on the upper chest or sleeve would be a nice addition to the customizer.
"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."-á
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Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
244
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Posted - 2014.12.17 00:17:30 -
[240] - Quote
Jade Blackwind wrote:Posting in this thread to show support for the initiative and to thank corbexx for organizing this.
As for me, it would be nice to have some ethnic/tribal looking Minmatar stuff.
awesome, I love new clothing options, I can get rid of this caldari coat then.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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