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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15873
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Posted - 2014.12.12 11:54:48 -
[1] - Quote
Character attributes are meaningless and stupid, and only serve to punish players who haven't trained up the basics already (primarily new players, but also older players who have previously focused on specific areas of gameplay). The cost of implants deters high risk PvP amongst those for whom training skills is still very important (again, primarily new players). The stat respec system rewards poor skill training habits and punishes good ones. The cost of implants incentivises and gives excuses for risk averse behaviour.
So:
1)Get rid of stats, or at least dissociate them from skill training and find some other use for them like giving people false hope that there will ever be any WiS gameplay or something, I dont even care.
2) Normalise skill training at 2500 SP/hr
3) Remove all learning boosts from pirate implants, CA-series, etc.
4) Change the current stat boosting implants into +100-+500 SP/hr and put them in slot slot 7, 8 or 9, with wide availability for all three of those slots, with only the highest value implant or booster taking effect.
5) Introduce boosters that give +100-500 SP/hr with, again, availability for all 3 booster slots, and again with only the highest value implant or booster taking effect. (so if you have a +4 learning implant but you take a +500 SP/hr booster, you get 3000 SP/hr for 72 hours, then drop back to 2900 SP/hr after 72 hours when the booster wears off. The Cerebral Enhancer booster will need to be rebalanced accordingly, but I'll leave the details of that for discussion..
Learning Boosters last 72 hours or until you get podded, and then you need to take another one or you drop down to 2500 SP/hr until you do. You can overlap them by just taking another one, with the new dose restarting the 72h clock. (If you don't want to log in every 3 days just to shoot up, then just buy implants.)
Transitioning: Characters who currently have learning implants in clones get them turned into whatever the highest stat value is (so if you have 3 +3s, a +4 and a +5, then they get merged into a +500SP/hr implant already in your head). If slot 7 is empty, it gets put into slot 7. Otherwise slot 8. Otherwise slot 9. If the clone has no empty implant slots, then it gets a free learning booster of equivalent strength applied immediately and the implant appears in the clone's hangar.
This system is simple, easy to understand, flexible, it covers all existing use cases (including being able to maintain skill training while unable to access the client for more than 72 hours, which supports the recent skillqueue change)); it facilitates players engaging in high pod-loss risk scenarios without paying excessive prices to continue training, while maintaining the principle of there being some cost for losing a pod.
The reason for having learning implants available across slots 7-9 is so that they don't have to interfere with pirate sets or mindlinks and to allow players to have a range of navigation, gunnery or missile implants and put the learning implant into the otherwise unused slot. If you want to use all 10 of your implant slots for hardwirings, then you still have the option of using boosters.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15873
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Posted - 2014.12.12 11:59:58 -
[2] - Quote
Additional advantage of this system: slots 1-5 are opened up for potential use for skill hardwirings.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
829
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
A different implentation to the usual posts but I'd still say no. If implants make a player risk averse then they bought the wrong ones. The cost of the implants provide the risk balanced by the reward of higher SP/hr. New players already receive the 35 day booster and 2 free remaps, if this isn't sufficient then extend the booster time. After that I like the system the way it is. |
Catiz Soren
87
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:17:07 -
[4] - Quote
This feature will not solve the main problem you mentioned, high risk PvP amongst new players. They will still need implants/boosters to train faster. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15873
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:37:09 -
[5] - Quote
Catiz Soren wrote:This feature will not solve the main problem you mentioned, high risk PvP amongst new players. They will still need implants/boosters to train faster.
Yes but the point being that they're only risking a single dose of booster, which will implicitly cost far less than an implant of equal strength.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
829
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:37:59 -
[6] - Quote
People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have. New players need to learn to use the skills they are training (along with patience and planning) which invariably comes from gameplay and also invariably takes longer than training the skill itself at all lower level skills. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
380
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:38:52 -
[7] - Quote
And Malcanis fails to quite clear his own law, but puts up a valiant effort.
More hardwirings and pirate sets increase the advantage of someone who specialized in a role in a synergistic manner, which means that they reward veterans (who can also afford them much more easily) far more than newbies.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Catiz Soren
87
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Posted - 2014.12.12 12:45:48 -
[8] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:[quote=Catiz Soren]Yes but the point being that they're only risking a single dose of booster, which will implicitly cost far less than an implant of equal strength. Well this can be done much more easily by just giving Cerebral Accelerator to all new players, not only to those who bought starter pack. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
167
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:06:01 -
[9] - Quote
While I personally wouldn't mind if no learning implants existed, I'm not sure ur OP would achieve what you want because hardwirings can be expensive as well. |
DaeHan Minhyok
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
39
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:08:57 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, let's take more RPG elements out of this MMORPG... if you want a level fielded themepark go somewhere else |
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
1972
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:34:21 -
[11] - Quote
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:Yes, let's take more RPG elements out of this MMORPG... if you want a level fielded themepark go somewhere else
Confirming that Malcanis is a filthy carebear with a track record of trying to destroy Eve.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Aiyshimin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
218
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:38:53 -
[12] - Quote
Your premises are wrong, and suggestion therefore worthless.
Attributes don't punish anyone, and neither implants prevent anyone from PVP.
The reasons are stupidity and fear. |
Shadow' Broker
Nuclear-Blast Back and Forth
13
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:44:03 -
[13] - Quote
I definitely think that getting rid of the attributes remapping --> skill training time system would be awesome.
Most new players don't know how or when to use the remaps, and therefore waste their 2 bonus remaps already in the beginning of their EvE career.
I have had and heard arguments about this particular subject already and I know that some people think that EvE should be hard and decisions should matter, and you should be punished if you take a false decision "even if you are just a one day old new player" just because you didn't know better (bitter Vet smack talk) and bla bla bla, ... ;-))
But seriously, no one benefits from other players F.....g up their attribute remaps and being stuck for an entire year with skills taking forever to train.
That's just plain annoying, nothing else |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
829
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Posted - 2014.12.12 13:52:59 -
[14] - Quote
Shadow' Broker wrote:I definitely think that getting rid of the attributes remapping --> skill training time system would be awesome.
Most new players don't know how or when to use the remaps, and therefore waste their 2 bonus remaps already in the beginning of their EvE career.
I have had and heard arguments about this particular subject already and I know that some people think that EvE should be hard and decisions should matter, and you should be punished if you take a false decision "even if you are just a one day old new player" just because you didn't know better (bitter Vet smack talk) and bla bla bla, ... ;-))
But seriously, no one benefits from other players F.....g up their attribute remaps and being stuck for an entire year with skills taking forever to train.
That's just plain annoying, nothing else
That's an NPE issue then, not a remap issue. Skills don't take forever either, just less time (and not that much). The skill system does not punish a player for a bad decision, indeed if the player used the skill in any way to make isk it was not a bad decision even if the players focus in game changes at a later point. The skill training time, remaps and implants system is well balanced and everyone has the same access to the advantages that can be gained. The longer a player has been in game the more likely they are to be able to afford the highest level gains. How is this wrong? |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
151
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Posted - 2014.12.12 14:04:54 -
[15] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
5) Introduce boosters that give +100-500 SP/hr with, again, availability for all 3 booster slots, and again with only the highest value implant or booster taking effect. (so if you have a +4 learning implant but you take a +500 SP/hr booster, you get 3000 SP/hr for 72 hours, then drop back to 2900 SP/hr after 72 hours when the booster wears off. The Cerebral Enhancer booster will need to be rebalanced accordingly, but I'll leave the details of that for discussion..
Hell no, we don't need that stupid **** again.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2052
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Posted - 2014.12.12 14:38:59 -
[16] - Quote
Howabout a set of pirate implants specifically designed to be cheaper for anyone outside of empire space? They could be like standard learning implants except much cheaper, but if you get caught trying to take em into highsec the border police will remove them.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
685
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Posted - 2014.12.12 14:40:18 -
[17] - Quote
You are on the right track: attributes in Eve are not well-implemented. Learning implants do not make any sense to have in your head if you PVP regularly. Where you go wrong is continuing to have some sort of learning speed implant or booster at all. Eve should limit the number of implants that don't affect spaceships or give you a direct and immediate benefit to using them right now. This "optimize your training plan and plan the first two years of remapping and training in the first week" has got to go. Unfortunately, it is the most rational way to play in the current environment.
Completely remove all learning implants from the game. Unplug all existing implants. Place them in the pilot's cargoholds or station wear house. Normalize SP at 2500 per hour. Then we have two options:
1. Add four new implant sets that affect ships: one for each race. The existing implants get replaced with the equivalent racial set for that character type. This could be where we get an armor repair bonus set, armor resistance bonus set, shield resistance bonus set, and shield boost bonus set (turn Crystals into shield amount). The effect of these sets would not be as strong as the pirate sets. Completely redo all the implants and faction drops to have it make sense in the current Eve universe (I am looking at you, Sanshas).
2. Line up the bonus with the attribute: a +5 Perception implant gets you 5% more lock range and scan resolution. A +5 Willpower implant lets you overheat 5% longer. A +5 Charisma increases bounties by 5%. A +5 Memory reduces your jump fatigue timer by 5%. A +5 Intelligence gives you 5% more effect on a damage control. Or whatever...
Or do something completely different. Turn all existing implants into implant parts. Replace all NPC implant drops with BPCs. Let players build the implants they want.
The key thing is to give people a direct and immediate benefit from risking implants, but not to make it such a stark choice between immediate fun and long term cost benefit analysis.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Seven Koskanaiken
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1373
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 15:44:37 -
[18] - Quote
The booster would be fine of longer, I'd say 30 days length so it's on the same cycle as PLEX. 72 hours is just a blatant attempt to hold onto the drudgery of the old skill queue, since 99% of players will use boosters over implants. Let it go. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2054
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 15:48:58 -
[19] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:The booster would be fine of longer, I'd say 30 days length so it's on the same cycle as PLEX. 72 hours is just a blatant attempt to hold onto the drudgery of the old skill queue. Let it go. I disagree. It could be a fairly cheap booster that you can use when you temporarily jumped into a clone with no implants. Like staying at a hotel. Still a lot more expensive than a house per night, but if you aren't staying long it's not too bad.
At 30 days, the price would have to be increased accordingly, making it once again not worth putting into danger. The entire point is that it's supposed to be cheap.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Waltaratzor
Waltmart
7
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Posted - 2014.12.12 15:49:51 -
[20] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have.
It does however reward people for staying in high sec. |
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Ratchet Conway
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2014.12.12 16:03:07 -
[21] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:A different implentation to the usual posts but I'd still say no. If implants make a player risk averse then they bought the wrong ones. The cost of the implants provide the risk balanced by the reward of higher SP/hr. New players already receive the 35 day booster and 2 free remaps, if this isn't sufficient then extend the booster time. After that I like the system the way it is.
I don't know when this stopped.. but there is no longer a 35 day training booster. (I subbed my account in November and all I got was a free Venture).
On topic, I'm of the mindset to recommend skill point purchases with AUX and the removal of the AUX to Plex conversion. This way players can still purchase Plex in game and transfer it to AUX for these types of purchases, but requires that currency be dedicated to this type of use and permanently spent into the wallet once used. I'm not sure what a proper pricing model for Plex/SP would be as I feel to inexperienced to make that judgment. -- seems simple enough.
Stat remaps could also be sold in this manner -- but these would have to be super expensive. Similar stat bonus remaps on other games cost $250US or more (highest I've seen was $1200US).
Of course, I'm also of the mindset to turn eve into a FTP game. People would still sub, perhaps the incentive could be whatever bonus the quoted poster (Corradhin) mentioned. At least this would be less pay to win than they did in Dust Beta (real money exclusive items that are more powerful than anything you could ever get for free, easiest way to lose your community in my experience).
The game is over 10 years old. --there is no way to catch up to a 10 year player (if there are any left, oldest I've found so far is 6), and total specialization is a 2 year process in its current design.
I like the new life that's recently been invested into the game, and these types of options would only improve that development capability IMO. |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1373
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 16:04:19 -
[22] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:The booster would be fine of longer, I'd say 30 days length so it's on the same cycle as PLEX. 72 hours is just a blatant attempt to hold onto the drudgery of the old skill queue. Let it go. I disagree. It could be a fairly cheap booster that you can use when you temporarily jumped into a clone with no implants. Like staying at a hotel. Still a lot more expensive than a house per night, but if you aren't staying long it's not too bad. At 30 days, the price would have to be increased accordingly, making it once again not worth putting into danger. The entire point is that it's supposed to be cheap.
Then at the least make varieties, 3 day, 7 day, 15 day, 30 day.
To be honest the whole OP seems like a nostalgia for both the old skill queue and the old clone updates mixed together. Removing risk averseness is easy by making skill train a a flat rate, and no jump clone timer for clones in the same station, that's all you need. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
710
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Posted - 2014.12.12 16:25:56 -
[23] - Quote
Here's my personal Beliefs on this...
The majority of new players find that skill training is probably the most important part of Eve. If you ever want to get anywhere or do anything, you need to be training at all times. The faster you train, the sooner you can play the game the way you want to.
A noob may have the intent of PVP, but once he starts, he realizes he needs isk... So, he cuts back on combat training and starts training for something like mining. Then, he realizes he's not making a lot of money mining, so he needs to train for a mining barge. He then finds out that missions actually pay off more, so he trains a combat ship. Once he's trained for that ship and can finally purchase it, he then finds out that he needs a ton of support skills, weapons skills, and all the skills required to use t2 modules. Well, now he realizes that this is going to take a while, so the best course of action is to buy implants to speed up training.
I could keep going with this story, but the ultimate outcome is that this player learns that training skills at your highest potential rate is the best way to go. This leads to the majority of pilots becoming risk averse because they don't want to jump clone and have reduced training for any duration of time, but they don't want to risk losing those implants. So, most of the time they just don't PVP.
It's not until a player gets to a point in Eve where they've trained so many skills and they're so proficient in certain weapons and ships that they don't really know what else to train, then they'll start jumping into an empty clone and possibly engaging in PVP.
However, it always seems to come back to needing/wanting to train for something else, so they're back in the same boat.
I feel any type of SP modification should be removed from the game and rolled into our stats. This means we would all be able to train at the same rate, regardless of how much isk we earn, or whether we can personally afford a ton of PLEX to purchase implants or not...
Everyone is willing to pvp in a frig, cause they're cheap. However, not everyone is willing to pvp with implants in their head, and if I have to chose between losing training time to PVP and keeping training time, i'll stay in high sec every time.
Besides, since the introduction of PLEX. Cash for PLEX = PLEX for isk = Isk for implants = increased training time = more SP = PTW. Last time I checked, everyone in Eve was against PTW, and PLEX aren't going away any time soon.
I guarantee the PVP involvement would increase if we removed all forms of attribute enhancement and rolled it into the attributes, causing all players to have equal training times.(not including remaps)
I know I would get more involved in PVP. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
1053
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 16:27:27 -
[24] - Quote
Waltaratzor wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have. It does however reward people for staying in high sec. How so? You can still get podded easily in High sec. And you do not need to sit in a +5 in order to train with optimal speed. A +3 head is more than sufficient to train skills fast and without prohibitive cost, and they don't matter much when you get podded in High/Low/Null sec.
Whoever puts +5s in their head and then complains about how s/he can't PVP, is just complaining about their own incapability of playing and judging things correctly. You can PVP everywhere just as easily with +5s in your head as with +3s or no implants. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
710
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 16:35:29 -
[25] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Waltaratzor wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have. It does however reward people for staying in high sec. How so? You can still get podded easily in High sec. And you do not need to sit in a +5 in order to train with optimal speed. A +3 head is more than sufficient to train skills fast and without prohibitive cost, and they don't matter much when you get podded in High/Low/Null sec. Whoever puts +5s in their head and then complains about how s/he can't PVP, is just complaining about their own incapability of playing and judging things correctly. You can PVP everywhere just as easily with +5s in your head as with +3s or no implants.
Once you're to a point of being proficient in combat, i would agree with you. However, there are those that aren't, and there are those that wish for something different.
In those cases every little bit helps. Most of those cases are new players. This leads to these players coming to the understanding that max training potential is the most important thing in Eve.
Does anyone here remember training skills? What was the first thing you were told when you started Eve?
Get those skills maxed out. Many of us were also told that by the time they were maxed, we'd likely have enough isk to buy a set of implants, and were told to do so.
Point is, SP is the most important thing in Eve. You can't just train to be really good in a t1 frigate and stay there the entire time you're in Eve. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
832
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Posted - 2014.12.12 16:44:07 -
[26] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:... Once you're to a point of being proficient in combat, i would agree with you. However, there are those that aren't, and there are those that wish for something different.
In those cases every little bit helps. Most of those cases are new players. This leads to these players coming to the understanding that max training potential is the most important thing in Eve.
...
If a player isn't proficient in combat (or avoiding it depending on their chosen proffesions) they rally shouldn't put expensive im[plant in just the same as they shouldn'trun out a blinged gank target.
Players should npt hve the *right* to higher SP/hr, they should pay for it and risk the investment. I totally agree with Rivr that +3's are more than sufficient (I've never bothered with higher even though I can now easily afford it).
Removing attributes and implants removes player choice and risk from the game. I would always be against that.
I do agree wth the point that implants shouldn't drop but rather the BPC, or potentially dissect the corpse (Missions/combat anoms could just drop a corpse instead of implant) to get at the BPC's. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
1053
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 17:08:55 -
[27] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Once you're to a point of being proficient in combat, i would agree with you. However, there are those that aren't, and there are those that wish for something different.
In those cases every little bit helps. Most of those cases are new players. This leads to these players coming to the understanding that max training potential is the most important thing in Eve.
Does anyone here remember training skills? What was the first thing you were told when you started Eve?
Get those skills maxed out. Many of us were also told that by the time they were maxed, we'd likely have enough isk to buy a set of implants, and were told to do so.
Point is, SP is the most important thing in Eve. You can't just train to be really good in a t1 frigate and stay there the entire time you're in Eve.
Then these players need to be reeducated. Not the game needs to change, the players need to adapt to the game. I despise this trend towards more rush, less longterm gameplay. And this change would do nothing but foster more rush. Players and especially new players in EVE must realize that this game is not meant to be casual for the sake of it, in order to make it casual for you, you need to work for it and invest time.
I have never had higher than +3s in my head for an extended period of time (vacation spend offline in a +4 during summers, etc.) and I have more than enough skills after these almost 4 years to fly nearly anything pilots can wish for, with some sidetracks and distractions poured into it for good measure and variety of my activities. I can do almost anything EVE offers, from exploration over to market as well as missions, DEDs, and PVP. Even some basic manufacturing is possible. What else could you possibly want?
Players must realize that they have to wait for big stuff to happen and to take part in in more than a mere frigate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with things taking time in EVE and it is a fatal mistake of players and devs to try to change that fact. While you wait for bigger stuff to fly, you can do a whole range of other stuff with your small frigates (I cite suitonia and clahim and their YT channels again), and you can get to know the game, the mechanics and find your way to play. A rush based gameplay like this faster skill training takes away this opportunity and gives players too much too fast.
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Iain Cariaba
734
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Posted - 2014.12.12 17:22:25 -
[28] - Quote
The player who is too risk averse to PvP with implants plugged into their head isn't going to PvP anyway. The cost of implants just makes the more convienent excuse. If they didn't have expensive implants, they'd find some other excuse for not PvPing.
I used to PvP with +5s and full set of 5% implants, until I lost that pod. Why don't I do it anymore? Not because of the cost, because I can easily afford to keep doing that, but because I'm not feeding anyone another billion isk pod killmail. Since then, I've found a cheap set of +3s to be more than sufficient. The difference in train time between +5s and +3s isn't really enough for me to justify paying more than a full set of +3 for a single +5.
Joe Risalo wrote:Does anyone here remember training skills? What was the first thing you were told when you started Eve?
Get those skills maxed out. Many of us were also told that by the time they were maxed, we'd likely have enough isk to buy a set of implants, and were told to do so. And the people who told you that didn't know what they were talking about. The ones who knew what was what told you to install EvEMon and use the feature that calculated what learning skills would speed up your current goal, and you just trained those.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Mag's
the united
18296
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Posted - 2014.12.12 17:24:39 -
[29] - Quote
If you wish to remove attributes, then simply remove them and any implant bonuses linked to them. Then give everyone a flat 2700 for every skill.
As much as I love you Malc, I dislike your suggestion and booster idea.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15880
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Posted - 2014.12.12 18:55:31 -
[30] - Quote
Mag's wrote:If you wish to remove attributes, then simply remove them and any implant bonuses linked to them. Then give everyone a flat 2700 for every skill. As much as I love you Malc, I dislike your suggestion and booster idea.
The suggestion explicitly does remove any implant bonus linked to stats. That's kind of the point of it.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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