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Aiyshimin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
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Posted - 2014.12.14 07:10:45 -
[91] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Yes, because low SP gets you recruited to new corps all the time...... And everyone love a player who can't even fit a t1 frigate without running out of PG/CPU.
The skills you have trained has everything to do with "winning" in Eve, as "winning" is based on personal goals you set. Those goals typically require SP, so SP has literally EVERYTHING to do with winning.
Take your trollery elsewhere.
SP doesn't get you recruited either, your track record and experience do.
It doesn't have anything to do with winning. Take your trollery elsewhere.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1768
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Posted - 2014.12.14 07:27:12 -
[92] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I'm with FT and I'll add one exception.
Right now we do have SP boosters, they are called Cerebral something-something. They come in a few varieties and boost SP gains for new players only. I would suggest balancing and expanding this, so players up to maybe 6 months in age can enjoy a fairly robust boost to SP/hour. 6 months is vastly too much.
If you actually look at those Boosters, they come from an account which is bought paid from day 1. With no trial period. So the Booster is actually only making up for the free training available during a trial period. Not giving accelerated training beyond that.
So they are only intended to even out the SP gained for the same subscription length vs those that start with a trial and those that buy a prepaid account through a promotion. Which.... if you think about it is yet another argument AGAINST SP implants since it shows a precedent that the same subscription length should be the same SP. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
214
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Posted - 2014.12.14 09:14:15 -
[93] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:I'd have to say no.
Eve was better back in the day when there was learning skills, and you had to study an item to work out how to use it best (Coldgas Arc Jet Thrusters etc).
Hell, Eve was better last week when the clone grades were still here...
The game has been improved by light-years since those days. Removing learning skills was one of the best things that has ever happened to this game, along with the abolishment clone upgrades for the very reason that CCP touted it as. For the life of me I can't understand why any player would say that such an arbitrary requirement for a player to make only one correct choice out of many possible wrong choices, one with potentially devastating consequences for their advancement, is a good thing for the game, particularly when it hurts new player proportionately more than old ones. EVE is brutal enough without them and their removal absolves a huge source of resentment among players and removes, even if its statistically small, a reason why players leave this game.
Remaps fall into the same category because for a given skill-path there's only one right choice to make. Characters will still be allowed to specialize or not if attributes are removed, but probably more importantly it will give new players the freedom to train without the knowledge that they've somehow screwed up their 'optimal' training attributes. People get into ships faster, build ships faster, and generate content faster; all of which happens while removing another unnecassary learning requirement. |
Aiyshimin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 09:18:40 -
[94] - Quote
It's not an unnecessary learning requirement, it's a major part of training your character. Planning your training and remaps is nice and has literally no drawbacks unless you are completely ********.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
835
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Posted - 2014.12.14 09:22:23 -
[95] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote: Remaps fall into the same category because for a given skill-path there's only one right choice to make. Characters will still be allowed to specialize or not if attributes are removed, but probably more importantly it will give new players the freedom to train without the knowledge that they've somehow screwed up their 'optimal' training attributes. People get into ships faster, build ships faster, and generate content faster; all of which happens while removing another unnecassary learning requirement.
However, there isn't just one skill path and a players focus in the game can change over time.
in answer to FT's point I would ask just how often he would have undocked the titan clone anyway whilst it was training since he has had it sat in dock whilst preumably using another character more specialized in smaller ship classes. If someone sits a chracter in dock because of implants it is either because of FT's situation where it is training up for something or the player bought the wrong things and would only complain about something else stopping them from undocking instead.
It boils down to saying people are complaining that if they undock they are risking losing stuff that give them an advantage over other players, please give me that advantage without the risk. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
214
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Posted - 2014.12.14 09:24:25 -
[96] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:It's not an unnecessary learning requirement, it's a major part of training your character. Planning your training and remaps is nice and has literally no drawbacks unless you are completely ********.
Or you don't know anything about the game.
Literally has no drawbacks unless... you're what? New to the game? Don't know what attributes do?
Clones weren't technically necessary, but that's a pretty big technicality when it comes down to the optimization of your gaming experience and doesn't constitute a real choice. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 09:29:10 -
[97] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote: Remaps fall into the same category because for a given skill-path there's only one right choice to make. Characters will still be allowed to specialize or not if attributes are removed, but probably more importantly it will give new players the freedom to train without the knowledge that they've somehow screwed up their 'optimal' training attributes. People get into ships faster, build ships faster, and generate content faster; all of which happens while removing another unnecassary learning requirement.
However, there isn't just one skill path and a players focus in the game can change over time. in answer to FT's point I would ask just how often he would have undocked the titan clone anyway whilst it was training since he has had it sat in dock whilst preumably using another character more specialized in smaller ship classes. If someone sits a chracter in dock because of implants it is either because of FT's situation where it is training up for something or the player bought the wrong things and would only complain about something else stopping them from undocking instead. It boils down to saying people are complaining that if they undock they are risking losing stuff that give them an advantage over other players, please give me that advantage without the risk.
Honestly, I care less about learning implants and boosters than I do about the attribute system. I'd be happy to see it go, but it wouldn't bother me too much if it didn't.
Even then, I don't think that it would hurt the game at all to see the SP/hour rate at the maximum current rate. No implants, boosters, or attributes. Characters that are currently optimized get the same SP/hour and the average rate for all players increases. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
835
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Posted - 2014.12.14 09:53:34 -
[98] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote: Remaps fall into the same category because for a given skill-path there's only one right choice to make. Characters will still be allowed to specialize or not if attributes are removed, but probably more importantly it will give new players the freedom to train without the knowledge that they've somehow screwed up their 'optimal' training attributes. People get into ships faster, build ships faster, and generate content faster; all of which happens while removing another unnecassary learning requirement.
However, there isn't just one skill path and a players focus in the game can change over time. in answer to FT's point I would ask just how often he would have undocked the titan clone anyway whilst it was training since he has had it sat in dock whilst preumably using another character more specialized in smaller ship classes. If someone sits a chracter in dock because of implants it is either because of FT's situation where it is training up for something or the player bought the wrong things and would only complain about something else stopping them from undocking instead. It boils down to saying people are complaining that if they undock they are risking losing stuff that give them an advantage over other players, please give me that advantage without the risk. Honestly, I care less about learning implants and boosters than I do about the attribute system. I'd be happy to see it go, but it wouldn't bother me too much if it didn't. Even then, I don't think that it would hurt the game at all to see the SP/hour rate at the maximum current rate. No implants, boosters, or attributes. Characters that are currently optimized get the same SP/hour and the average rate for all players increases.
Except that it removes another advantage that those less risk averse can have. Note that I do not see a pilot with +5s satbin dock as having an advantage. If the pilot never undocks it is just burning isk/RL currency whilst doing absolutely noyhing at all. That's a pretty big price to pay for training a level 5 skill 2 day faster than if you used +3s. |
Aiyshimin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 10:25:08 -
[99] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:It's not an unnecessary learning requirement, it's a major part of training your character. Planning your training and remaps is nice and has literally no drawbacks unless you are completely ********.
Or you don't know anything about the game. Literally has no drawbacks unless... you're what? New to the game? Don't know what attributes do? Clones weren't technically necessary, but that's a pretty big technicality when it comes down to the optimization of your gaming experience and doesn't constitute a real choice.
How could anyone know something about a game without doing their homework? Attributes and (learning) implants are just another interesting aspect of the game.
Here's the tutorial about attributes:
Quote:The speed of your skill training is determined by your attributes. Your current ones can be seen in the character sheet. Open it up now. Attributes do not influence the chance of success when using skills, only how fast the skills that rely on them are trained. Therefore, high attributes are only beneficial if you are training skills that rely on those attributes. Planning ahead is paramount. Select the attributes tab. There you can see a list of your current attributes. You should familiarize yourself with them, and what they affect. Intelligence is the attribute that is primarily used for training in the Electronics, Engineering, Navigation, Mechanic and Science categories. Intelligence is the secondary attribute for a lot of Social and Industry skills as well. Memory is primary for those that use their time to learn Industry, Corporation Management and Drone skills. Memory is also the secondary attribute to a great number of Engineering, Mechanic, Electronics and Trade skills. Charisma is the primary attribute in speeding up the learning of many Leadership, Social and Trade skills. Also, skills that have to do with Corporation Management receive a secondary boost from Charisma. Willpower is the primary attribute when it comes to the speed at which you learn many Trade, Leadership and Advanced Spaceship Command. But it is also a very important secondary attribute, as the Gunnery and Missile Launcher Operation skills and the bulk of the Spaceship Command skills rely partly on a character's Willpower. Perception is the primary attribute when it comes to reducing training times for Gunnery, Missile Launcher Operation and the Spaceship Command skills and the secondary attribute for the Advanced Spaceship Command, most of the Drones and Navigation skills. Please refer to the following EVElopedia articles for more information about attributes.
And about learning implants:
Quote:An implant is a device that is surgically placed inside your head to enhance your abilities. They can help you with a host of actions but in this tutorial we will be focusing on implants that increase your attributes, thereby making you train skills faster. Even the most basic implants require you to have the Cybernetics skill trained. Some require additional skills but the basic ones only require Cybernetics. You have been given the skillbook for Cybernetics now and it is recommended that you train it right away, so you can use your newly acquired implant. To use an implant, locate it in your items hangar or cargohold and right-click it to bring up the contextual menu. Then select plug in from the list of options. When you remove an implant, it is immediately destroyed, making reselling implants impossible. Be sure that you want to use your implant at this exact time before plugging it in. Please refer to the following EVElopedia article for more information about implants.
Now add Rookie Help, corp chat, Help chat, forums and Google to these basics and tell me that "knowing not what attributes do" isn't a player's own fault.
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Aiyshimin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 10:28:32 -
[100] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote: Honestly, I care less about learning implants and boosters than I do about the attribute system. I'd be happy to see it go, but it wouldn't bother me too much if it didn't.
Even then, I don't think that it would hurt the game at all to see the SP/hour rate at the maximum current rate. No implants, boosters, or attributes. Characters that are currently optimized get the same SP/hour and the average rate for all players increases.
When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
566
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 11:40:01 -
[101] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I'm with FT and I'll add one exception.
Right now we do have SP boosters, they are called Cerebral something-something. They come in a few varieties and boost SP gains for new players only. I would suggest balancing and expanding this, so players up to maybe 6 months in age can enjoy a fairly robust boost to SP/hour. They will still benefit my alt just as much if not more than a new player. Flat rate for all characters.
Yes, but we need to suck that up. No one cares if their alt is a week off a core fit because you have main(s).
A noobie doesn't, it's worth the risk for a better NPE in my opinion. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
619
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 13:27:03 -
[102] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can?
Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
836
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 15:23:05 -
[103] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed.
Why should new players keep up with older players who've put more in and played the game longer? The older pilots have earnt the isk to do with as they will and newer pilots will get there too sooner or later. Also they can always catch up to a vet in any given ship class because *all relevant skills are capped at V*. Pick a ship, focus on it and I guarantee you will become exactly the same SP as the vet given time for that ship class. The vet gets there faster because of implants? Good. They've paid a lot for them and get the rewards. If they refuse to fly in the implants then more fool them because they are making nil isk whilst the pilot sits in dock. |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
231
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 15:27:10 -
[104] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed.
Who uses full sets of +5s man, seriously :D
+3s in the form of Genos or pie sets, or then 2x +4s is what most PVP players use.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
696
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Posted - 2014.12.14 16:23:57 -
[105] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed.
This is precisely the point. If new players do invest in the implants, whether through grinding them up or selling PLEX, the loss of those items is disproportionately harder on them than it is on an older character.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
696
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Posted - 2014.12.14 16:32:57 -
[106] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed. Who uses full sets of +5s man, seriously :D +3s in the form of Genos or pie sets, or then 2x +4s is what most PVP players use.
I know plenty of folks who PVP in 0.0 with all 10 implant slots filled, they just don't usually fly small ships. We had a fleet last week where we totally stomped the enemy. Something like 12b destroyed for 4.5b lost. Then an assault frigate pilot lost his 1.5b ISK pod. Still a nice win, but funny to see 1/4 of our losses come from one pod. I lost a nice clone like that too when I did FW and got some lag as my ship exploded.
Don't fly what you cannot afford to lose applies at all times.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
566
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Posted - 2014.12.14 16:35:27 -
[107] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed. Why should new players keep up with older players who've put more in and played the game longer? The older pilots have earnt the isk to do with as they will and newer pilots will get there too sooner or later. Also they can always catch up to a vet in any given ship class because *all relevant skills are capped at V*. Pick a ship, focus on it and I guarantee you will become exactly the same SP as the vet given time for that ship class. The vet gets there faster because of implants? Good. They've paid a lot for them and get the rewards. If they refuse to fly in the implants then more fool them because they are making nil isk whilst the pilot sits in dock.
It's not that you don't undock, you don't PvP. You can carebear like a bastard with a pricy pod in high sec. In fact, it's utterly worth doing so. An extra 10% DPS on my Mach/marauder? Yes please. More falloff? More tracking? Don't mind if I do. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
837
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 16:51:37 -
[108] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed. This is precisely the point. If new players do invest in the implants, whether through grinding them up or selling PLEX, the loss of those items is disproportionately harder on them than it is on an older character.
And they shouldn't have bought them until they could afford to lose them. I see absolutely no problem with this. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
837
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 16:52:44 -
[109] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed. Why should new players keep up with older players who've put more in and played the game longer? The older pilots have earnt the isk to do with as they will and newer pilots will get there too sooner or later. Also they can always catch up to a vet in any given ship class because *all relevant skills are capped at V*. Pick a ship, focus on it and I guarantee you will become exactly the same SP as the vet given time for that ship class. The vet gets there faster because of implants? Good. They've paid a lot for them and get the rewards. If they refuse to fly in the implants then more fool them because they are making nil isk whilst the pilot sits in dock. It's not that you don't undock, you don't PvP. You can carebear like a bastard with a pricy pod in high sec. In fact, it's utterly worth doing so. An extra 10% DPS on my Mach/marauder? Yes please. More falloff? More tracking? Don't mind if I do.
A 'carebear' of that sort wouldn't PvP anyway so removing the +5s would absolutely not suddenly make them think 'Hey maybe I should go fight someone else instead now I have no implants...' |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2054
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 17:13:11 -
[110] - Quote
i'm pro removal of learning implants because they are what ppl are referring to as an illusion of choice (That you pretty much have to always have some form of learning implant, not just +5's).
However, they dont stop anyone from PvP'ing unless you put too much value on SP/hour and too little value on PvP. And thats your own dumb arse fault. +3's provide almost the same training speed. Hell +2's are good enough for new players. Like Mag's, if learning implants were removed id rather it would not be replaced by some other form of booster that essentially does the same thing.
Educating players that +5's are not that important would be a better way of changing PvP attitudes.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
837
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Posted - 2014.12.14 17:17:06 -
[111] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:i'm pro removal of learning implants because they are what ppl are referring to as an illusion of choice (That you pretty much have to always have some form of learning implant, not just +5's).
However, they dont stop anyone from PvP'ing unless you put too much value on SP/hour and too little value on PvP. And thats your own dumb arse fault. +3's provide almost the same training speed. Hell +2's are good enough for new players. Like Mag's, if learning implants were removed id rather it would not be replaced by some other form of booster that essentially does the same thing.
Educating players that +5's are not that important would be a better way of changing PvP attitudes.
I'm pretty sure removing implants wouldn't change PvP attitudes in the slightest as it is the fear if losing *something* that puts people off. The something in question is irrelevant and would be replaced with another if it were removed. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
696
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 17:46:08 -
[112] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote: Remaps fall into the same category because for a given skill-path there's only one right choice to make. Characters will still be allowed to specialize or not if attributes are removed, but probably more importantly it will give new players the freedom to train without the knowledge that they've somehow screwed up their 'optimal' training attributes. People get into ships faster, build ships faster, and generate content faster; all of which happens while removing another unnecassary learning requirement.
However, there isn't just one skill path and a players focus in the game can change over time. in answer to FT's point I would ask just how often he would have undocked the titan clone anyway whilst it was training since he has had it sat in dock whilst preumably using another character more specialized in smaller ship classes. If someone sits a chracter in dock because of implants it is either because of FT's situation where it is training up for something or the player bought the wrong things and would only complain about something else stopping them from undocking instead.
That is correct - on that same account I have a character who almost exclusively flies Interdictors. She's maxed skilled for frigate and destroyer class ships. Groomed that way from Day 1. Her training clone sits in high sec and she clone jumps to it only if CCP adds a new frigate or destroyer related skill. As an Interdictor pilot, she dies a fair amount, so she never has implants, unless they make her ship better.
As for whether I could have used the Titan pilot in training while she was training - sure to a point. Among her prerequisite skills are Amarr Battleship V and Large Energy Turrets V. On the other hand, part of min-maxing a character means that she spent basically one year knocking out Perception/Willpower skills and one year doing Int/Mem skills. So, when on an optimal skill plan, she could sit in ships that she did not have the support skills to fly properly. Yet another reason that the attribute respec needs to go away. It works beautifully for someone who has already made a long term commitment to Eve, but it is wretched for someone exploring Eve and trying to incrementally improve their character. They either use their remaps sub optimally, or have to accept fewer SP/hour.
Lots of veterans will also manage their risk by respecializing and then injecting only the two implants they need. This works once you have a baseline of core skills. If you are the new player, however, having to train Amarr Frigate IV one day and Engineering V the next, you either defer training those skills to optimize your plan, or have a generic respec and at least four implants installed, which makes it harder to manage the risk (and is still suboptimal SP/hour). This makes it disproportionately harder on players less than six months old - who have a shotgun of skills they need to train. If they last past that six months, then they have it much easier, but we know that many players never make it that far. Additionally, with the limited access to jump clones that most new players have, jumping around to your Int/Mem clone and then back to your Perc/Will clone is not really an option.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:It boils down to saying people are complaining that if they undock they are risking losing stuff that give them an advantage over other players, please give me that advantage without the risk.
As a new player, you are risking your future SP and incurring a proportionately much greater risk than the established veteran. Yet the ships you are expected to fly are worth a fraction of your implant value. It's the same as asking me to fly a T1 frigate in this character two weeks ago - my clones were 40m each. I could afford to lose them, but typically wouldn't bother to in anything smaller than a HAC. Asking a newbie to risk a 20-40m ISK pod (assuming a pair of +3s or +4s) to come tackle for me in his Rifter is just silly.
You should risk the stuff that gives you an immediate advantage. The most satisfying pod mail I have ever taken was a dude in his Virtue set. He was out in space risking something valuable that gave him a direct and immediate advantage. Then he ended up in my interdictor bubble in his faction fit covert ops ship. I want more pod mails like that, not some paltry two implants that only help a player be better six months from now.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2054
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Posted - 2014.12.14 17:46:40 -
[113] - Quote
i actually agree,
but PvP aversion is the main argument made by players who want learning implants removed. just saying, if they REALLY think its a problem, then educating players that +5's are not important would do what they want without any need for removing implants.
I'd like the implants removed for other reasons.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
566
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Posted - 2014.12.14 18:51:00 -
[114] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: When a new player comes to the game they often think that they can never catch up to older players, and this would be even more true if they had no control over their training speed.
Yea, because newbies are capable of buying a 500mil set of +5s like vets can? Fixed training speed would help newbies keep up, rather than the current system where cost and knowledge disparity gets them off to a slow start, and at best they end up matching a vet's speed. Why should new players keep up with older players who've put more in and played the game longer? The older pilots have earnt the isk to do with as they will and newer pilots will get there too sooner or later. Also they can always catch up to a vet in any given ship class because *all relevant skills are capped at V*. Pick a ship, focus on it and I guarantee you will become exactly the same SP as the vet given time for that ship class. The vet gets there faster because of implants? Good. They've paid a lot for them and get the rewards. If they refuse to fly in the implants then more fool them because they are making nil isk whilst the pilot sits in dock. It's not that you don't undock, you don't PvP. You can carebear like a bastard with a pricy pod in high sec. In fact, it's utterly worth doing so. An extra 10% DPS on my Mach/marauder? Yes please. More falloff? More tracking? Don't mind if I do. A 'carebear' of that sort wouldn't PvP anyway so removing the +5s would absolutely not suddenly make them think 'Hey maybe I should go fight someone else instead now I have no implants...'
Depends, I keep a learning clone I'm in right now for away periods. I also pimp clones for high sec missioning. I also maintain cheap/emptied for my null use. |
Waltaratzor
Waltmart
8
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Posted - 2014.12.14 18:57:35 -
[115] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Waltaratzor wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have. It does however reward people for staying in high sec. How so? You can still get podded easily in High sec. And you do not need to sit in a +5 in order to train with optimal speed. A +3 head is more than sufficient to train skills fast and without prohibitive cost, and they don't matter much when you get podded in High/Low/Null sec. Whoever puts +5s in their head and then complains about how s/he can't PVP, is just complaining about their own incapability of playing and judging things correctly. You can PVP everywhere just as easily with +5s in your head as with +3s or no implants.
You only get podded in high sec if you are dumb or lazy. In null sec you get podded frequently and in low a little bad luck of lag will get you podded. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
112
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Posted - 2014.12.14 20:17:57 -
[116] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I'm with FT and I'll add one exception.
Right now we do have SP boosters, they are called Cerebral something-something. They come in a few varieties and boost SP gains for new players only. I would suggest balancing and expanding this, so players up to maybe 6 months in age can enjoy a fairly robust boost to SP/hour. They will still benefit my alt just as much if not more than a new player. Flat rate for all characters. Your alt is low SP so it shouldn't matter too much. There's only so much you can do with an alt of that age. The benefits afforded to actual newer players in being able to train quicker would outweigh it.
Maybe 6 months is too long. 4 months perhaps. It would also scale the same way it does now, i.e. you get less boost to SP/hour as the 4 months elapse.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
698
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Posted - 2014.12.14 20:18:03 -
[117] - Quote
Waltaratzor wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Waltaratzor wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have. It does however reward people for staying in high sec. How so? You can still get podded easily in High sec. And you do not need to sit in a +5 in order to train with optimal speed. A +3 head is more than sufficient to train skills fast and without prohibitive cost, and they don't matter much when you get podded in High/Low/Null sec. Whoever puts +5s in their head and then complains about how s/he can't PVP, is just complaining about their own incapability of playing and judging things correctly. You can PVP everywhere just as easily with +5s in your head as with +3s or no implants. You only get podded in high sec if you are dumb or lazy. In null sec you get podded frequently and in low a little bad luck of lag will get you podded.
The first time I got podded was in high sec. It was the first day my corp was in our first war. I was two months old and jumped through a gate in a salvage Catalyst. At that time, I did not know about neutral scouting alts or log off tactics. A war target assault frigate logged in on the gate (which I had scouted) and killed my Catalyst. I warped to the nearest station and tried to run back home in my rookie ship. He caught me again and when that ship exploded I lagged a little and he got my pod too. Clone wasn't up to date, lost a set of +4s, and a level 5 skill. That was over seven years ago. It still smarts a little.
Most of the lessons I learned in that first war still hold true: 90% of Eve is knowing game mechanics, don't fly what you cannot afford to lose, and if you cannot stand losing anything this is not the game for you. That first war dec also cost me 9-10 really close friends - about a dozen of us had joined Eve at the same time, having all played another game together. At the end of the first war, having been abused by station games, neutral scouts, neutral remote repair alts, neutral off grid boosters, and about 200m more SP than our corp had combined, only two of us were left. The two of us headed to 0.0 to get away from that and never looked back - the rest of my friends quit Eve.
The point is that for an experienced player you should never get podded outside of 0.0, you know to spam warp constantly, or maybe even eject a bit early. New players don't know these things and/or lack those reflexes.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2014.12.14 20:22:36 -
[118] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Character attributes are meaningless and stupid, and only serve to punish players who haven't trained up the basics already (primarily new players, but also older players who have previously focused on specific areas of gameplay). The cost of implants deters high risk PvP amongst those for whom training skills is still very important (again, primarily new players). The stat respec system rewards poor skill training habits and punishes good ones. The cost of implants incentivises and gives excuses for risk averse behaviour.
How does it reward poor skill training habits and punish good ones?
It does the exact opposite.. I have to pay attention to what my skills are based on so instead of just plugging in willy nilly skills, I have to follow the path I laid out for myself if I bothered to actually spec myself.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15884
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Posted - 2014.12.14 20:25:23 -
[119] - Quote
Shakira Akira wrote:Malcanis wrote:Character attributes are meaningless and stupid, and only serve to punish players who haven't trained up the basics already (primarily new players, but also older players who have previously focused on specific areas of gameplay). The cost of implants deters high risk PvP amongst those for whom training skills is still very important (again, primarily new players). The stat respec system rewards poor skill training habits and punishes good ones. The cost of implants incentivises and gives excuses for risk averse behaviour.
How does it reward poor skill training habits and punish good ones? It does the exact opposite.. I have to pay attention to what my skills are based on so instead of just plugging in willy nilly skills, I have to follow the path I laid out for myself if I bothered to actually spec myself.
New players (or older players who are training out of hyper-specialised characters like station traders, inventors, etc) have to train a diverse set of skills, and they're forced to accept slower training speeds than characters who can train skills based on a single stat combo for a whole year.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
698
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Posted - 2014.12.14 20:28:37 -
[120] - Quote
Shakira Akira wrote:Malcanis wrote:Character attributes are meaningless and stupid, and only serve to punish players who haven't trained up the basics already (primarily new players, but also older players who have previously focused on specific areas of gameplay). The cost of implants deters high risk PvP amongst those for whom training skills is still very important (again, primarily new players). The stat respec system rewards poor skill training habits and punishes good ones. The cost of implants incentivises and gives excuses for risk averse behaviour.
How does it reward poor skill training habits and punish good ones? It does the exact opposite.. I have to pay attention to what my skills are based on so instead of just plugging in willy nilly skills, I have to follow the path I laid out for myself if I bothered to actually spec myself.
Character attributes reward deferred gratification and skill plans that are years long. Implants represent a long term investment with no immediate reward if they are lost. If you decided in the first few hours that Eve was the game for you, then you are in the minority. Most people will get bored with high sec content and quit long before they see any benefit from a lengthy skill plan or the learning implants people encourage them to use to catch up.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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