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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:10:02 -
[1] - Quote
Sorry for the utter geekyness of this question, but what coordinate system does Eve use to represent space?
I'm assuming Eve space is a polar coordinate system as opposed to cartesian, based off the 'centre' of each star system. I'm guessing this because of the billiard ball nature of objects in Eve, and developer head banging and throwing TVs out of the window over storage if it was cartesian. Doesn't this generate lots of annoyingly dependent on accuracy and messy trigonometric floating point math to deal with and store? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4491
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:19:48 -
[2] - Quote
Actually, it's all cartesian coordinates, as evidenced by the SDE.
So we have the position of all the stars in new eden (down to the meter) (mapSolarSystems)
We also have the position of all the celestials (mapDenormalize) in relation to their star.
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:25:04 -
[3] - Quote
Humm thanks. Could you link to that info please?
If it's cartesian that means it would be much easier to represent large objects e.g. titans not just as spheres but as meaningful shapes. Imagine ships so large you could fly in and around their features instead of bouncing off the invisible bubble.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:27:17 -
[4] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Sorry for the utter geekyness of this question, but what coordinate system does Eve use to represent space?
I'm assuming Eve space is a polar coordinate system as opposed to cartesian Polar would be two dimensional. Did you mean spherical coordinates, or cylindrical?
Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:27:52 -
[5] - Quote
The physics of Eve makes much more sense if viewed through polar coordinate glasses. I assumed this was down to the underlying choice of coordinate system. |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:29:18 -
[6] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:virm pasuul wrote:Sorry for the utter geekyness of this question, but what coordinate system does Eve use to represent space?
I'm assuming Eve space is a polar coordinate system as opposed to cartesian Polar would be two dimensional. Did you mean spherical coordinates, or cylindrical?
Polar is 2d or 3d, whichever you want. If you did polar at at school it may have been 2d because it's easier to draw on 2d paper, but polar can quite happily cope with 3d also. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:29:46 -
[7] - Quote
Clearly ships in EVE use 3-axis gimbals since they can't continue rotating past vertical.
Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:31:54 -
[8] - Quote
care to elaborate on that last post?
PS looked up the polar spherical thing - I guess you are right, 3d polar appears to be called spherical. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
348
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:33:51 -
[9] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Polar is 2d or 3d, whichever you want. If you did polar at at school it may have been 2d because it's easier to draw on 2d paper, but polar can quite happily cope with 3d also. No, it can't. What you're thinking of as 3D polar coordinates would have either been cylindrical or spherical coordinates, since there are two ways that you can extend the polar system into 3 dimensions (either by adding a second angular parameter, or by adding a second distance parameter).
Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
350
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:44:06 -
[10] - Quote
Actually, doing some more reading, it would seem that EVE uses Euler angles for ship and camera orientations. They're much easier to code, but they lead to problems like the aforementioned gimbal lock. If we wanted the ability to rotate our ships or camera past vertical then CCP would need to use quaternions instead, which are a bit more complicated to code.
I realize this thread is about coordinate systems for position and not orientation, but I'm geeking out a bit myself on this so please forgive me for the tangent.
Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
251
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Posted - 2014.12.15 12:45:47 -
[11] - Quote
The first time I rotated the camera, back in 2009 ...
"Oh, gimbal lock!"
Still wondering why they don't use quaternions. |
Gillia Winddancer
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
419
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:00:06 -
[12] - Quote
Just want to chip in and say that the gimbal lock has always been a bit of a pet peeve for me in EVE. It is not a huge deal but still would be nice to see it changed into a true free-form. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4492
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:27:11 -
[13] - Quote
The collision system represents ships as a collection of spheres, which mostly cover the model. It's done to simplify collision mechanics. It's not a single sphere, hence why you can get closer to an avatar on the side, than if it was a single sphere.
Nothing to do with the coordinates system.
The universe data can be grabbed from https://developers.eveonline.com/resource/static-data-export (it's the sqlite file)
Or you can get individual exports from https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/dump/latest/
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Josef Djugashvilis
2759
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:48:15 -
[14] - Quote
What does any of the above mean in English? :)
This is not a signature.
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CCP Falcon
9944
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:49:47 -
[15] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:What does any of the above mean in English? :)
There be twinkly bits. There be black bits. There be shiny bits. There be spaces between them.
CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:55:39 -
[16] - Quote
where be the dragons? |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
190
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:58:13 -
[17] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:What does any of the above mean in English? :)
We are talking about the "laws of nature" of Eve. What Eve is built upon and how those bits fit together. More, but very mathy info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinate_system
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Ned Thomas
Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
473
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:01:02 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:
There be twinkly bits.
I read that as "Twinkie bits" and now I want a Twinkie.
Vote Sabriz!
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Highfield
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
66
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:09:03 -
[19] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Actually, it's all cartesian coordinates, as evidenced by the SDE.
So we have the position of all the stars in new eden (down to the meter) (mapSolarSystems)
We also have the position of all the celestials (mapDenormalize) in relation to their star.
The question that arises is ofcourse what the origin of the cartesian coordinate system is. From a lore perspective, the EVE gate comes to mind, but is that truth? |
Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
258
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:48:02 -
[20] - Quote
This thread reminds me of Korinne, who complained that there is an "arbitrary up". |
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3021
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:48:51 -
[21] - Quote
almost everything in computer graphics works with cartesian coodinates. Thats how you pass the geometry to the graphics card. You could in theory use different representations but its like working against a pseudo standard ;)
camera and ships use euler angels for sure, thats why you can't directly look down or up (or why ships can't do a loop) due to the gimbal lock which happens when you use absolute angels for the orientation matrix. (quaternions would be a way how to avoid it, relative transformations would be another).
whatever noise functions or coordinate systems ccp used to generate the universe, the end result are xyz coordinates.
eve style bounties (done)
dust boarding parties
imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW
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Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.12.15 17:26:39 -
[22] - Quote
understanding it is seen as XYZ. However, that dosnt have to be a straight line XYZ.
If angles/azimuths are used instead of straight lines, an XYZ could be plotted onto a stereographic projection which would seem to make more sense, as well as easier to plot and code - particularly for individual star systems, as sites outside of the celestial plane could be plotted in 2 figures rather than 3 and would allow for smoother arcs and curves without the need for the 'step path' of straight line XYZ.
It would then also allow an interesting physical effect by allowing an element of star gravity to be modelled and come into play - but I suppose this would be both fun, and potentialy a nightmare!! |
RomeStar
dskjdahsk
545
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Posted - 2014.12.15 19:10:19 -
[23] - Quote
So when can we barrel roll our carriers?
Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5818
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Posted - 2014.12.15 20:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
So if we could get a database of all of these systems and their orbiting bodies "down to the meter", there be some serious number crunching going on. Not sure if I want to deal with double floats (are they floats or ints?) just to see the exact distance in meters between a station in one system and a station in some other system.
(would be fun though - where's my FORTRAN compiler.... )
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
350
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Posted - 2014.12.15 20:38:47 -
[25] - Quote
Distance in meters on the scale of New Eden could be represented with unsigned 64 bit integers. 100 light years is on the order of 10^18 meters, whereas 2^64 is on the order of 10^19.
Alt of [redacted on advice from a reputable internet spaceships lawyer]
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Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
8
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Posted - 2014.12.15 20:44:44 -
[26] - Quote
And just remember that you can switch between one system of reference with one mathemathical representation of an idea ot another .. you know switching between carthesian and polar is an often used thing (for example electronics .. you know phase shifts of some stuff like condensators etc) so it actually don't matter wich system you use to descripe the positions ... |
Cosmic Girl96
Red Swords
35
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Posted - 2014.12.15 20:53:25 -
[27] - Quote
Necronomicon2 keeps me around because I'm pretty and have a bubbly, pleasant personality, not because I'm smart (I'm not but I do have my moments of brilliance)
That being said, for me trying to understand this thread is like trying to read Russian, spelled backwards and written by a 3 year old with crayon. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5621
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Posted - 2014.12.15 20:59:32 -
[28] - Quote
Cosmic Girl96 wrote:Necronomicon2 keeps me around because I'm pretty and have a bubbly, pleasant personality, not because I'm smart (I'm not but I do have my moments of brilliance) That being said, for me trying to understand this thread is like trying to read Russian, spelled backwards and written by a 3 year old with crayon.
Euler is pronounced like "Oiler" - or phonetically "OY-ler"
That should get you past the toughest part of the thread :)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4492
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Posted - 2014.12.15 23:04:01 -
[29] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:So if we could get a database of all of these systems and their orbiting bodies "down to the meter", there be some serious number crunching going on. Not sure if I want to deal with double floats (are they floats or ints?) just to see the exact distance in meters between a station in one system and a station in some other system.
(would be fun though - where's my FORTRAN compiler.... )
As I mentioned, it's all the in the data provided by CCP.
If you download the SDE from them, the SQLite database is the universe data.
mapDenormalize doesn't contain the absolute positions of everything, but it does contain relative to the star in the system. mapSolarSystem contains the absolute position of the star.
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Sir Substance
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
656
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Posted - 2014.12.16 00:19:33 -
[30] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:where be the dragons?
Same cage they keep the quaternions in. They sit at either end and snarl at each other.
The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex
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