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GaKarr
Savage Research Technologies
0
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just installed patch , as usual my daily task is exporting Enriched unranium from my planets to customs office to haul to station, last night pre-patch from each launch pad i export approx 750 to 850 Units of Enriched Unranium, this would cost approx 8,000 iskies , now the same amount post patch is 724,000 isk !!!! This is in a high sec 0.5 system, this is absolutley nuts,
To import refined materials for about 10 k of each would cost about 8,000 now its 100,000 !!
Check your walllets guys when you are doing that importing/exporting , NO WAY are they meant to be this high , 1000% increase , this has got to be a bug.
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Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 21:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
GaKarr wrote:Just installed patch , as usual my daily task is exporting Enriched unranium from my planets to customs office to haul to station, last night pre-patch from each launch pad i export approx 750 to 850 Units of Enriched Unranium, this would cost approx 8,000 iskies , now the same amount post patch is 724,000 isk !!!! This is in a high sec 0.5 system, this is absolutley nuts,
To import refined materials for about 10 k of each would cost about 8,000 now its 100,000 !!
Check your walllets guys when you are doing that importing/exporting , NO WAY are they meant to be this high , 1000% increase , this has got to be a bug.
It's not a bug - see the following developer-moderated page: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Taxation
Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value. This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
The fact is, in order to ensure that anyone would actually bother with using a player owned customs office, they needed to be able to 1) generate enough revenue that anyone would care to put them up and 2) provide an attractive tax haven alternative to highsec.
If you don't like the tax rates, either include the cost in your sell price, put up your own POCO with a 0 tax rate, or partner up with someone who owns a POCO to get a favorable tax rate. |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Did you wonder why PI prices went up 100% in the last couple of months? That is what is covering the tax. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussie carebears with teeth. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
14
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Taxation
Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value.
This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax
The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
Custom tax rates can be set based on corp to corp standings, as well as for alliance members or corp members.
So for your High Sec Factory planet.
Per Cycle
Import Tax (assuming importing Toxic Metal and Prec Metal) = (40+40)*500*.05 (half of 10%) = 2,000 Isk Export Tax = 5 * 9,000 *10% = 4,500 isk
Total Tax = 6,500 isk per cycle or 1300 isk per unit.
Should be easy to confirm the numbers.
So for a factory planet with say 24 factories.
24 factories * 6500 isk/cycle * 24 hours = 3.7M per day in taxes.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
40
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yea the crappy thing is the valuation. it would have been nice if they had been updating the market value all along. Then there would not have been this major spike. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 21:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Yea the crappy thing is the valuation. it would have been nice if they had been updating the market value all along. Then there would not have been this major spike.
The question is how often will they reindex it? |
Rex Augustus
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
:smug:
Working as intended.
Valuation indexing - this WILL be interesting to see. Monthly actually would be pretty badass, but I suspect it may be more along the lines of quarterly or every major update like this.
*shrug* We shall see, tho. |
Tahna Rouspel
BWE Special Forces Rage Alliance
20
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Posted - 2011.11.29 21:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ouch, this is unexpected. I knew they were raising the NPC tax to 10%, but I didn't know the value was increased!
This will definitely have some serious impact on the market prices and POS fuel costs. |
Rex Augustus
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.11.29 22:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeTaxation Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value. This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK Custom tax rates can be set based on corp to corp standings, as well as for alliance members or corp members. So for your High Sec Factory planet. Per Cycle Import Tax (assuming importing Toxic Metal and Prec Metal) = (40+40)*500*.05 (half of 10%) = 2,000 Isk Export Tax = 5 * 9,000 *10% = 4,500 isk Total Tax = 6,500 isk per cycle or 1300 isk per unit. Should be easy to confirm the numbers. So for a factory planet with say 24 factories. 24 factories * 6500 isk/cycle * 24 hours = 3.7M per day in taxes.
You forgot a very, very critical tax point in here that =SOMEONE= is going to have to pay: P1 export.
Your assumption is that there is no initial export of the P1 (I guess you're assuming market purchase?) If you are running P1 harvest planets too, you need to add in another 4000 isk per P2 factor.
24 factories * 10,500 isk/cycle * 24 hours = 6,048,000 isk per day in taxes.
Hisec PI => nerfed. Hard. |
Party Lips
Blackened Skies Death Jesters
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
twiddles fingers yess yesssss come to low sec. muhahahaha |
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Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Party Lips wrote:twiddles fingers yess yesssss come to low sec. muhahahaha
Mwhahaha-no, I don't like being forced to play one way or the other. CCP will not make me go anywhere in eve I don't want to go.
I will unsub first... wait... I already have. |
Caiyuga Onishi
Custos Lumini
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Unsubbing because of nerfed high sec PI.. you really shouldn't. Prices for commodities will most likely take another kilogram of crack soonGäó It's like on the real market - the customer pays the tax. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Caiyuga Onishi wrote:Unsubbing because of nerfed high sec PI.. you really shouldn't. Prices for commodities will most likely take another kilogram of crack soonGäó It's like on the real market - the customer pays the tax.
Fewer PI products will be bought because of their significantly higher cost which results in a larger supply of PI products.
More supply means lower costs. It will balance out. The people with PI planets will suffer for it. Meanwhile, the massive alliances in nullsec effectively don't even notice this change since they will be able to buy a baker's dozen of POCOs every day if they needed to.
Low/null sec gets a massive buff, high sec gets a massive nerf = CCP is trying to get players out of high sec and into low/null sec. Sorry, this game was billed to be as a sandbox. In my sandbox the devs don't paint me into a corner. |
General Sauron
Saurian Industrial Corporation DSM FOUNDATION
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Anyone know the difference between prices for using the launchpad and the command center for launches? |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Good luck using the launch pad to do a meat 500 m3 per how or whatever. Though I do agree there is too much moaning here about this. It's kind of sad really that people cannot learn to adapt. |
General Sauron
Saurian Industrial Corporation DSM FOUNDATION
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:Good luck using the launch pad to do a meat 500 m3 per how or whatever. Though I do agree there is too much moaning here about this. It's kind of sad really that people cannot learn to adapt.
For the amount produced by high sec PI, 500 is decent for launching P2. |
General Sauron
Saurian Industrial Corporation DSM FOUNDATION
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
For those that are interested, I did a little experiment on one of my planets. The launchpad now costs alot more as well. It equates to a about 15% tax rate.
For those with low sec planets, under certain circumstances, it may be better to forgo the POCO, and just use the launchpad every two days. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Party Lips wrote:twiddles fingers yess yesssss come to low sec. muhahahaha
The problem with this is that no one in their right mind is going to go to low sec either. The predictable outcome is that prices will rise like the temperature on Texas asphalt at noon until CCP decided to 'correct' the issue because nerfing High sec this hard means that PI is now out of reach for newbs AND POCOs die too fast to defend unless your corp lives in that system alone 24 7 and has more then a handful of people. So, PI, at 250k a day in profit at best will require an easily destroyed 100m isk floating turkey.
The vets will just sit back and watch and wait to see what happens, because as of right now, the market is in for a wild rollarcoaster as T2 prices soar so high that harvester drones look attractive again. |
Frederheim
Dark Angel Freight Brotherhood of Legion's
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
If your only doing P2 in high sec, honestly your doing it VERY wrong. The main issue with it is import tax, due to being unable to extract the amount of materials you need in a HS planet to run enough to make P2/P3's from P0's.
I ran, pre-expansion, P2 > P3 robotics factory worlds. Now post-expansion I'm looking at swapping over to possibly P1 > P3 production (unsure if robotics is going to be the final product or if something else is more profit).
The major issue with CC launches is the 1 hour CD they have, and if your doing the old way of making P3's from say 19 factories, that's 57 an hour at 6 m3/unit. Every hour it makes 342 m3 worth of robotics. All fine and dandy for doing a launch an hour and picking it up. However realize not many people are online every hour of every day to do the 500m3 CC launch to keep up with demand, thus you will eventually be forced to export using the higher tax. I am not sure what teh tax you pay in CC launches but there is one I know. Another thing this prevents you from doing is being more than a few jumps away from the planet/s in question to pick up the cans in space, limiting your other fun pew pew's or other isk generating activities like missioning/incursions/camping Jita 4/4 and hoping to get a stupid hauler with more ISK than sense.
I guess CC launches could be used for the P1-P3 worlds as they generate 12 robotics an hour at CCU 4 and 15 at CCU 5 and can thus be left for about 5 hours between exports. Not sure if the lower ISK/Hour would be worth it however, I'm going to run the numbers tonight after work. |
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Can someone give me an forecast on what will happen with construction blocks? I have seen the massive spike in PI POS fuel (I bought about 750M about 6 weeks ago for safekeeping), but construction blocks have gone down in the same period. |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Yea the crappy thing is the valuation. it would have been nice if they had been updating the market value all along. Then there would not have been this major spike.
That would actually be very bad if they decide to constantly update the base price based on the market price. The market will price in the tax, meaning prices will go up. Then if they set the base to the new price, and then tax on top of that again, the price will go up to reflect the tax again, set base, price raises, new base, raises again. That would guarantee that the price of the products would continually and rapidly rise. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Expect all PI related products to slowly start to creep up in price. By how much I honestly have no idea but they will go up, people will want to still make their profit with these extra taxes.
One thing I do know is everything that has any required part thats PI related is going to go up in price so T2 drones, T2 missiles/torps, PoS structures and PoS fuels (and thus T2/T3 indirectly due to higher running costs) amongst many other things.
It's a whole cycle of life thing, something that happens at the bottom resonates all the way tot he top, eventually.
EDIT:
The only thing I can see that is really bad about this price hike in taxes is the new players wanting to get into PI or who have just gotten into PI and don't have another reliable source of income, though if they know what they are doing they can skill up fo incursions or higher level missions, still kind of sucks for them however. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rex Augustus wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeTaxation Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value. This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK Custom tax rates can be set based on corp to corp standings, as well as for alliance members or corp members. So for your High Sec Factory planet. Per Cycle Import Tax (assuming importing Toxic Metal and Prec Metal) = (40+40)*500*.05 (half of 10%) = 2,000 Isk Export Tax = 5 * 9,000 *10% = 4,500 isk Total Tax = 6,500 isk per cycle or 1300 isk per unit. Should be easy to confirm the numbers. So for a factory planet with say 24 factories. 24 factories * 6500 isk/cycle * 24 hours = 3.7M per day in taxes. You forgot a very, very critical tax point in here that =SOMEONE= is going to have to pay: P1 export. Your assumption is that there is no initial export of the P1 (I guess you're assuming market purchase?) If you are running P1 harvest planets too, you need to add in another 4000 isk per P2 factor. 24 factories * 10,500 isk/cycle * 24 hours = 6,048,000 isk per day in taxes. Hisec PI => nerfed. Hard.
Didn't forget it, just clearly stated it was for a factory planet.
|
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
If they rebase the price every so often, they'll need to remove the tax price from it before doing so.
(Oxygen is a tax of 50 per unit, btw) |
Severian Carnifex
80
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:Question: Did the cost of planetary launches from the command center (limited to 500 m3 as often as you can keep doing expedited transfers to them) go up as well?
Or it is possible to launch high tier, high value, items up 500m3 at a time and avoid the tax? The price of command center launches is pretty close to the price of using the customs office. For example, launching 333 coolant with the customs office costs 509k, launching it from the command center costs 439k.
CCP... if you don't want to lower the price of Customs Office tax... please lower the price of Command Center launch so that that difference mean something... so that we can have a little bigger profit for much more trouble... |
Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm not really sure why they tax the jetcan exports so highly. I can understand using a PCO but if it's my command center?
Anywho, best thing to do now is to wait out the price changes. Not exporting any PI for a bit until this gets changed or the prices stabilize. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! https://sourceforge.net/projects/eveiph/ |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
wow just tried to export some of my hi sec robotics, saw the cost and came here to see what was up. It's not worth the trouble at all with the new tax rate. PI was a pain in the ass but it paid, now its barely profitable. Hope this was a mistake otherwise PI in high sec is pretty much dead... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yeah, CCP just pretty much broke the economy. Taxes are at 22% in Metro. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
I have just updated my PI profit calculator with the new tax rates and such. However, I haven't verified the taxes I saw on sisi two days ago and today. Any PI product will need to rise way up in costs because of these new tax rates. way up as in like, woah. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
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Gritchee
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 02:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lets see...right now I can sell coolant at around 7000 a unit. It costs me 9000 per unit to export.
hmmmm |
ohno riceagain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 02:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'm also seeing about 1000% increases across the board in import and export taxes.
I plan to pass that along to whomever buys my stuffsa
I really would'nt mind this if the donut eating Concord pukes would actually blast someone before they gank me while mining, but I cant really count on that now can i?
No, Im not mad bro No you cant has my stuffs No you cant pet my lolz cat
What I would like is some stabilization in market before I go throw my PI into the mix.
For now, I too am sitting on everything I make until the Eve Economist comes out of his fricking Icelandic fog and figures out how to rectumfy this volcanic CCP mess.
Also while I am whining, please fix the Loz and HW consumption for Towers and fricking hamster pellets some Dev hemped up on ash decided was a good idea.
( Really? did you guys have the napkin upside down when you were coding after a hard night at the pub)?
On a good note, the Noobuleas and pretty stars look nice and I likes AP to a station ( thats cool)
and +1 for the font , us old farts like it.
Overall I would say a good expansion, but some ideas implemented need some tweaking. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
410
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 02:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Alisarina wrote: The only thing I can see that is really bad about this price hike in taxes is the new players wanting to get into PI or who have just gotten into PI and don't have another reliable source of income, though if they know what they are doing they can skill up fo incursions or higher level missions, still kind of sucks for them however.
Not really. For the new players doing PI harvest in hi-sec, it won't change a thing. Prices will go up for P1, so they'll be able to charge more - and people who find math difficult will abandon the market, making P1 prices higher, which means more money for the PI harvesters at the bottom of the pile.
For new players trying to do lo-sec PI - they'll have to adapt or die. Or join forces and get standings with the residents or move to null/w-space. Or change their setups to produce P2 and survive off of command center launches.
For the factory planets - if it's not profitable to make if you assume that you buy inputs off the market and pay the import/export fees - then don't make that particular commodity. Find another niche rework your factory planets to pull from lower down on the tier. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 02:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Not really. For the new players doing PI harvest in hi-sec, it won't change a thing. Prices will go up for P1, so they'll be able to charge more - and people who find math difficult will abandon the market, making P1 prices higher, which means more money for the PI harvesters at the bottom of the pile.
For new players trying to do lo-sec PI - they'll have to adapt or die. Or join forces and get standings with the residents or move to null/w-space. Or change their setups to produce P2 and survive off of command center launches.
For the factory planets - if it's not profitable to make if you assume that you buy inputs off the market and pay the import/export fees - then don't make that particular commodity. Find another niche rework your factory planets to pull from lower down on the tier.
Bob, the problem is that new players will be scared off by the fact that a single day's production costs more then their ships to export and takes days to sell off at seller's prices, and they take a loss at buy order prices.
And P2 isn't possible in lowsec due to the 500m3 limit on launches. You'd have to launch every hour to keep up.
Effectively this is going to bring quite a large amount of T2 production to a halt due ot the increase in cost of doing business, until the players start screaming about the rising cost of T2 heading back to what it was in the bad old days when a handful of people held a monopoly on it. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Bob, the problem is that new players will be scared off by the fact that a single day's production costs more then their ships to export and takes days to sell off at seller's prices, and they take a loss at buy order prices.
And P2 isn't possible in lowsec due to the 500m3 limit on launches. You'd have to launch every hour to keep up.
You're just all sorts of wrong. Let's go in reverse order:
You can still use COs in lowsec and not be limited to 500m3. Interbus is there and most POCOs will be accessible to all (at varying rates). PI prices will go up, so people won't be taking a loss at buy order prices in liquid markets (trade hubs). Seriously how dumb do you think Eve players are that a market equilibrium will be reached where people consistently lose money selling items in Jita? A day's worth of PI production never takes "days" to sell unless it's sickly overpriced. As PI prices go up, it's still a passive income goldmine for new players.
Your hysterical, panicky posts make it sound like you think PI prices will not change in response to the tax changes. Obviously wrong, but then you say T2 cost of doing business will rise, which implies you realize PI prices will go up, which means doing PI won't be unprofitable for newbies (or anyone).
The hysterical complaints over taxes today are pretty funny. Taxes went up? List your goods for a higher price! The market will adjust. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
I've compared the old taxes to the new ones. the minimum increase was 270%, and that was for the highest tier.
Here's the old taxes per unit for export: P0: 0.1 P1: 0.76 P2: 9.0 P3: 600.0 P4: 50000.0
and here's the new taxes per unit for export at 10%: P0: 0.5 P1: 50.0 P2: 900.0 P3: 7000.0 P4: 135000.0
So the new ones(at 10%) compared to the old, its really: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old
These increases will be interesting to watch. This'll increase the cost of new POS's, then trickle down to moon goo, then T2 stuff. I foresee lots of complaints. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
electrostatus wrote:I've compared the old taxes to the new ones. the minimum increase was 270%, and that was for the highest tier.
Here's the old taxes per unit for export: P0: 0.1 P1: 0.76 P2: 9.0 P3: 600.0 P4: 50000.0
and here's the new taxes per unit for export at 10%: P0: 0.5 P1: 50.0 P2: 900.0 P3: 7000.0 P4: 135000.0
So the new ones(at 10%) compared to the old, its really: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old
These increases will be interesting to watch. This'll increase the cost of new POS's, then trickle down to moon goo, then T2 stuff. I foresee lots of complaints.
And make the tax rate 17% for WH and wow its a massive increase. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
pmchem wrote:[quote=Cygnet Lythanea] The hysterical complaints over taxes today are pretty funny. Taxes went up? List your goods for a higher price! The market will adjust.
Well, it all depends on how exactly the market adjusts. We do not know how much influence hi sec will have on the prices as opposed to null/wh which can operate for cheaper. We also do not have a sense for how the taxes wil adjust as the market averages change.
This will also impact new players heavily since it impacts the barrier to entry. Launch costs of a few thousand ISK are easy for newbies to play with.. launch costs in the high hundres or even millions, up front, can be a big deal for people without much buffer yet.
And let us not forget that this will probably reduce or wipe out factory planets in high sec, while not a horrible thing decreases the variety of types, which is sad.
For the short term, till we see how the new equations behave, we really do not know where or if the market will stabilize, or if that possible point of equilibrium is something that is good for the whole player-base (as opposed to null alliances) |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gritchee wrote:Lets see...right now I can sell coolant at around 7000 a unit. It costs me 9000 per unit to export.
hmmmm
No its 900 per unit. The 9000 is the valuation for the 10% tax |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 05:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
ATM I don't do PI to sell, I do it to supply a couple of towers, so in a way it doesn't affect me that way, it just means I've got to run a few missions every so often to top up the wallet. I've not re-done my spreadsheet yet to take the new changes into consideration, but the main thing I can see is the fact that the old way, fees were fixed, and if I get it correctly, the new system, fees are based on the market value? which market, which value (buy orders or sell orders, or a complete average of everything on the market?) cos that's going to be a pain in the ar$e to work out.
Yet another shaft in the side of the industry guys, yeah I know put your prices up, the market will adapt, but surely if the prices go up for all materials, won't the fees?
I'll admit to not reading much of the dev blogs since I don't sell the stuff, I didn't think it affected me that much, how wrong I was
Guess that's my reading for tonight, try work out what figures to put in my spreadsheet, and whether it's worth continuing with the towers for the increased cost or not. atm I produce plenty of stuff to keep the towers going, and build a little stockpile, but I'm going to have to look at it and see if it's worth it. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
410
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nobody knows for sure that the fees will be adjusted. (My guess is that they'll probably never be adjusted.)
What we do know is that it costs (at a 10% CO/POCO) exactly 50 ISK/u to export P1, no matter which type of P1.
And the new players will simply have to learn the primary rule of manufacturing: don't make stuff that isn't profitable to make. We've been prepping the students in our channels for a few weeks now about the upcoming changes to tariffs, including exploring ways to get a competitive edge on others by doing more steps on a single planet. Teaching them how to approach the upcoming change and how to spot opportunities in the turmoil.
(Most PI planets pay off in 1-2 weeks, even for hi-sec P1 harvest planets. As long as you didn't just setup your PI planet in lo-sec yesterday, there's no chance of losing your initial seed capital that you spent in setting up the PI planet. Picking up and moving to another system is a temporary setback, not a permanent death.) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
410
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote: And let us not forget that this will probably reduce or wipe out factory planets in high sec, while not a horrible thing decreases the variety of types, which is sad.
Actually, I think it will be the other way around. No sane individual is going to setup a PI factory planet in an area where they have no control over the tariff (such as lo-sec). In lo-sec, they might pay 0%, they might pay 10% (equal to hi-sec), or if the owner of the POCO gets in a mood, they may suddenly have to pay 100% tariff rates.
Which means that the vast majority of factory planets are going to be done in hi-sec, where you *know* that the tariff will always be 10% setting and you can make your profit estimates accordingly.
(The ability of a POCO owner to charge 10x more then what hi-sec charges in fees is where the POCO concept falls flat. Yes, it will drive player interaction and probably PvP. But it means that a PI factory planet owner has to deal with way too much risk and won't be able to plan their costs. CCP may eventually have to limit the POCOs to charging no more then 30% tariff.) |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:21:00 -
[43] - Quote
Bob I'm going to sleep now but keep fighting the good fight.
If the nearly polar opposite organizations of goons and Eve University agree on some part of game design, one marvels that the idea is not universally acclaimed. People will come around. |
Andromeda Risen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
I've run 5 accounts for the past 3 1/2 years and 3 of those for the past 4 1/2 years. I've recently let 3 expire and this one goes next week.
I've had my POS for the last 2 1/2 years. I've always just enjoyed testing and playing and building things from the beginning to completion. It's been a fun and leisurely past time.
This tax hike and the added manufacturing step for the POS fuel has simply made EVE (For me that) more and more of a tedious logistics game. (Actually started with PI) It saddens me to be pulling down my POS after so much time and work but for me the end is near.
The lowsec POCO's are simply another 'moon goo' monopoly in development. For me it's CCP trying to force me to play the game in a way that I don't enjoy. (So much for the sandbox) I would have loved to actually see some developments towards making combat more dependent on some real flying tactics or a real 'Smuggler's profession!
I may keep one account just to see where the dust settles. (And NO I'm not making a PUN of the 'ahem' console game. (Not really that is
I've met a handful of friends, (They know who they are) who's company I've enjoyed.
I wish them well. |
Deena Amaj
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Working as bullcrap, imo, rather than intended.
Changes like these are probably coming from the same people who came up and QA'ed Super capitals pre-Crucible |
Party Lips
Blackened Skies Death Jesters
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 07:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.
can i haz your stuff? PI is going to be even more profitable now. depending on how the market adjusts. an individual doing PI in high sec could make even more profit. all the custom offices btw are gone in low and 0.0 right now. hint hint wink wink. what does it take to build these? hrrrm |
Chichkata
Legion Enterprises Inc
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 08:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
Good thing they changed the POS timers though - if PI prices go up again people will just quit bothering and pull down their towers. I know I will
o/ Chich Legion Ent. Inc |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
I saw the last month that the numbers of players decreased, now I expect, with this exorbitant TAX increase, that these numbers of players will continue to fall.
If CCP want a players boost, than it's very unwise to make things more expensive.
Any economist can count on his ten fingers that when people stay away because the game gets less interesting, is not to make the game more difficult or raise up costly (because that will result in even more leaving of players...... witch result in a lower profit for CCP), But to make it more interesting, like (and i must ambit this is a great and wonderful update) the graphics and new vessels.
electrostatus wrote:I've compared the old taxes to the new ones. the minimum increase was 270%, and that was for the highest tier.
Here's the old taxes per unit for export: P0: 0.1 P1: 0.76 P2: 9.0 P3: 600.0 P4: 50000.0
and here's the new taxes per unit for export at 10%: P0: 0.5 P1: 50.0 P2: 900.0 P3: 7000.0 P4: 135000.0
So the new ones(at 10%) compared to the old, its really: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old
These increases will be interesting to watch. This'll increase the cost of new POS's, then trickle down to moon goo, then T2 stuff. I foresee lots of complaints.
A Tax raise of 200% (max.) each P-level would be more reasonable, and would be accepted by (i think) most of the players.
I think the PI would be doomed, because not only will leave EVE players, but also a lot of players will drop PI. This will result in more or less an decrease of Pos'es, POS Fuel and lot's of other Stuff what is needed for the safety spots in Low/Null sec for Corporations Chichkata wrote:if PI prices go up again people will just quit bothering and pull down their towers. I know I will
Personal i think, CCP scared off the players, who are more Traders than pvp'ers. This will be the first group will who not extend there accounts
my 2 Gé¼-cents (....... raised in 2002 --- The European players know what i mean wirn this 2002-Raise ) |
Aktaviala
The Shadow Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
With the reference prices like bellow:
Gùª Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Gùª Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Gùª Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Gùª Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Gùª Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
and CONCORD fix taxes, any PI-products - especial POS fuel - will be immediatly ajusted with new tax prices. So, a quick extrapolation give us new prices for beginning just multipiled with 100.
Robotics will costs instead of 70,000 around ~700,000 - 750,000 ISK Mechanical parts ~ 110,000 - 130,000 ISK Enriched Uranium ~ 110,000 - 130,000 ISK Coolant ~ 140,000 - 160,000 ISK
And lowsec/nullsec/wh players will ajust the prices too, because they have a new risk of the destructible CO (that each costs around 100m ISK). Just wait a while, when all PI players will calculate the new profit and ajust Jita prices.
.... otherwise CCP will ajust the reference prices.
:)
|
Umega
Solis Mensa
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:54:00 -
[50] - Quote
To the people quiting over a simple, boring feature as PI napfest.. buh-bye.
PI was no where near the gold standard motto of 'risk vs reward'.. now it is leaning in that direction, with a fun EVE-twist too. PI actually just got made entertaining, and very beneficial to people that don't even do it and just want wars/fights. I think some of you have no idea the implication that can be brought about under this new system outside of high.. oh well, nvm seriously your loss.
And on a high/low agenda.. all you got to do is readjust your prices. If you aren't making profits doing something in science/industry.. you must be an idiot, or quit doing it.
If it doesn't sink in that you should readjust your POS fuel costs into your final products price you use the POS for.. you must be an idiot, and you should tear down your tower(s).
If these very simple, basic ideas flew right over your head from the very beginning, and you are so enraged over these PIs changes that you want to quit because of them.. you are brilliant for once and doing yourself a grand favor, as this game is not meant for you. So quit.
Some ppl stopping inventions, BPO research and other highsec POS activities will obviously cause a problem with supply when demand will most likely be going up as older players come back after this summer's shitstorm. Ontop of the usual new players surge that hit during the cold winter months for something to try/do. Ontop of new items introduced in this expansion ppl will jump into, stopping their previous works. Guess what.. other ppl will pick up the slack cause there will be profits to be had by those that aren't idiots.
You aren't special coming in here crying about something some of you apparently do not understand.
Adapt and overcome, or simply whither away into nothing. Your wallet can't grow fat if you are nothing, a nobody. Choice is yours. |
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AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 10:24:00 -
[51] - Quote
@Umega: Imagen, Your Milk, Beer, Bread, ect. will tax raised with 1000%... you still would not complain? or take other action????? I don't know where you live, but here in the Netherlands the milk would be (after such tax raise) Gé¼ 11.90 The Tax raise will not raise my Salary neither do the missions raise the bounty prices
I don't think your one of those who accept all of these thinks, or be a opportunist.....
Be realistic, these Eve-TAX-raises are extreme and disproportionately heavy
Like i said, before, 200% (maximum) Tax raise would be acceptable by everyone, keeping in mind that it is really to improve relations between 'risk vs reward', and in a half year (next patch) an other TAX raise of 100% maximum..... |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
190
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 10:47:00 -
[52] - Quote
why arent you guys buying the cheap listed PI on market and relisting it at what is costs to bring to makret with the new tax?
This will also bring market prices in line with the new production price
I cant imagine you arent going to be able to sell your goods for a profit for long.
also, stop moaning and just pass the tax increas on to the customer |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 10:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
The problem was that taxes were irrelevant for anything under P4 production. This meant the ROI on POCOs was measured in years, even decades.
The 10000% tax increase on P2 looks like a lot... until you realize it's the result of moving from 0.1% of market (i.e. nothing) to 10%. If there had been no tax at all, and a 0.1% tax had been introduced, you would have complained about an "infinite tax increase". But it wouldn't have made prices infinite.
But I do think it was a good troll by CCP to take the prices after the post-devblog speculation as a reference. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 10:55:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Caiyuga Onishi wrote:Unsubbing because of nerfed high sec PI.. you really shouldn't. Prices for commodities will most likely take another kilogram of crack soonGäó It's like on the real market - the customer pays the tax. Fewer PI products will be bought because of their significantly higher cost which results in a larger supply of PI products. More supply means lower costs. It will balance out. The people with PI planets will suffer for it. Meanwhile, the massive alliances in nullsec effectively don't even notice this change since they will be able to buy a baker's dozen of POCOs every day if they needed to. Low/null sec gets a massive buff, high sec gets a massive nerf = CCP is trying to get players out of high sec and into low/null sec. Sorry, this game was billed to be as a sandbox. In my sandbox the devs don't paint me into a corner.
Risk = Reward |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:The problem was that taxes were irrelevant for anything under P4 production. This meant the ROI on POCOs was measured in years, even decades.
The 10000% tax increase on P2 looks like a lot... until you realize it's the result of moving from 0.1% of market (i.e. nothing) to 10%. If there had been no tax at all, and a 0.1% tax had been introduced, you would have complained about an "infinite tax increase". But it wouldn't have made prices infinite.
But I do think it was a good troll by CCP to take the prices after the post-devblog speculation as a reference.
I 'dont agree with your line of comment: you would have complained about an "infinite tax increase"
There should be a TAX, but raising it in 1 patch is ridiculous, this means the prices have to raise as well with 1000%,. BUT when the awards in the missions stays the same, and the loot prices do not raise the whole TAX raise of 1000% is a big failure..
You can compare this with the Euro and the current crisis. The prices of the products, and raw materials are since 2001 doubled (the biggest price raise was in 2003 and 2004) now in 2011 Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal have financial problems. The Netherlands and Belgium have also large debts by the EU. The only solution for these EU financial problems would be that the prices should be reducing it by 30 to 40% (And that is feasible, because the traders and importers determine the price, not the the suppliers in the country of origin or the suppliers of raw materials)
Reflect this conclusion (like economist do in RL) with the Eve Tax, and mission/loot income of the players, you will see that is will be problematic to buy stuff for the POS'es, for new vessels or even weapons/ammo. It will take way more time to collect your money (ISK) to buy these materials, vessels, weapons, ammo, fuel What results in less buying those things and with that an even higher rise of market prices by the sellers to make ISK profits
Like i said: There should be a TAX. But do these introductions of Raises in a proper way, bit by bit, and not at ones |
Roime
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Hi!
My wallet is pleased.
Fly dangerous o/ |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
AyFourDee wrote:I 'dont agree with your line of comment: you would have complained about an "infinite tax increase"
There should be a TAX, but raising it in 1 patch is ridiculous, this means the prices have to raise as well with 1000%, You are using a percentage on a percentage, which is absurd.
If your "cost" in time/isk before was 100, and the tax was 0.1%, your total cost was 100.1. Now, you cost in time/isk is still 100, but the tax is 10%. You your total cost 110. That's only a 9.8% increase in cost. Unless you were thinking your time was free and calculating profit percentage solely on the tax cost.
It gets more complicated further on the production chain, when you have to import materials at 5% tax, but still not dramatic.
Quote:BUT when the awards in the missions stays the same, and the loot prices do not raise the whole TAX raise of 1000% is a big failure.. This bit here is weird. Missions are unrelated, you should be making back the tax by selling your PI. Unless you were thinking "the PI I make is free".
Quote:You can compare this with the Euro and the current crisis. The prices of the products, and raw materials are since 2001 doubled (the biggest price raise was in 2003 and 2004) now in 2011 Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal have financial problems. The Netherlands and Belgium have also large debts by the EU. The only solution for these EU financial problems would be that the prices should be must be reduced with 30 to 40% That's called deflation, and it's generally thought to be a Bad Thing, as far as I know. |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: You are using a percentage on a percentage, which is absurd.
If your "cost" in time/isk before was 100, and the tax was 0.1%, your total cost was 100.1. Now, you cost in time/isk is still 100, but the tax is 10%. You your total cost 110. That's only a 9.8% increase in cost. Unless you were thinking your time was free and calculating profit percentage solely on the tax cost.
It gets more complicated further on the production chain, when you have to import materials at 5% tax, but still not dramatic.
0.1 to 10 is not 9.8% If 100% = 1 than 1000% =10 Base was 1% Tax, riser this with 1000% (increase) it will become 10%Tax 1000% is a multiple of 10 I see it is confusing when using "%" for Tax and the Increase, i should have used The 10 times Multiple
*EDIT The TAX in Stations is 0.1%, in CO's it was 1% |
Oswald Patsee
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:43:00 -
[59] - Quote
I'm looking at the long range picture here...
1. The tax rate changes in PI will rebalance the in game market... may not be a nice balance for some, but it will change the game for most.
2. The tax rate changes will be awesome for null and losec corps and alliances... right up until they realize that the changes were designed to drive people into null and losec so that thousands of tween Xbox addicts will have something to shoot at and fight over in Dust.
You see, I don't think the PI changes have anything to do with EVE. When Mittens and others have to spend money to play a second game just so they can keep their hold on their PI stuffs in the game they really want to play, the forum and CSM wails will be epic.
I'm thinking there will probably be a rage POCO geddon. |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:51:00 -
[60] - Quote
Oswald Patsee wrote:I'm looking at the long range picture here...
1. The tax rate changes in PI will rebalance the in game market... may not be a nice balance for some, but it will change the game for most.
2. The tax rate changes will be awesome for null and losec corps and alliances... right up until they realize that the changes were designed to drive people into null and losec so that thousands of tween Xbox addicts will have something to shoot at and fight over in Dust.
You see, I don't think the PI changes have anything to do with EVE and when Mittens and others have to spend money to play a second game just so they can keep their hold on their PI stuffs in the game they really want to play the forum and CSM wails will be epic.
That is also my Thoughts, they trying to drive the players to LOW/NULL sec, and there is a security level that a lot of players never liked, and never going to like.... these players will in the end stop playing Eve, and maybe switch to Dust.....
Quote:I'm thinking a rage POCO geddon.
This is hilarious... that is what i this morning told in EVE chat: "First there is Hulkageddon, whats Next: POCOgeddon?" I gave this player a thought, now he only places POCO's in Alliances dominated systems
|
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:12:00 -
[61] - Quote
AyFourDee wrote:0.1 to 10 is not 9.8% If 100% = 1 than 1000% =10 Base was 1% Tax, riser this with 1000% (increase) it will become 10%Tax 1000% is a multiple of 10 I see it is confusing when using "%" for Tax and the Increase, i should have used The 10 times Multiple My point went way over your head, so let's try to make it simpler.
If a a month ago you were selling, let's say, oxygen for 250 isk/u, of which to you all was profit (except for 0,76 isk of tax). Now you pay 65x more tax, 50 isk, so you only make 200 isk/u. In order to make the same isk/unit, you have to sell at 300 isk/u, not 250 x 65 = 16,250 isk/u.
Funnily enough, it's gone up far more than that on speculation alone. So profits right now are higher than ever.
Quote:This is hilarious... that is what i this morning told in EVE chat: "First there is Hulkageddon, whats Next: POCOgeddon?" I gave this player a thought, now he only places POCO's in Alliances dominated systems Lol Sure, because undocking a brutix and ganking a hulk is exactly as fun as getting 10 people in battleships together, going to lowsec, shooting a structure for 20 minutes, and then coming back the next day at 3am to do it again. I can totally see it. |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:AyFourDee wrote:0.1 to 10 is not 9.8% If 100% = 1 than 1000% =10 Base was 1% Tax, riser this with 1000% (increase) it will become 10%Tax 1000% is a multiple of 10 I see it is confusing when using "%" for Tax and the Increase, i should have used The 10 times Multiple My point went way over your head, so let's try to make it simpler. If a a month ago you were selling, let's say, oxygen for 250 isk/u, of which to you all was profit (except for 0,76 isk of tax). Now you pay 65x more tax, 50 isk, so you only make 200 isk/u. In order to make the same isk/unit, you have to sell at 300 isk/u, not 250 x 65 = 16,250 isk/u. I know what you mean, BUT, there must be ISK available from the Buyers, when they do not have it, you can not sell it.....
Therefor i already mentioned, that CCp is better of with raising the TAX in 2, 3 or 4 periodes, so everyone can everyone is to prepare him/herself to the new prices..... |
Erik Legant
Eclats de verre
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:17:00 -
[63] - Quote
I tried to export some P2s from a planet in lowsec, yesterday evening, and wow, that tax rise is ridiculous.
I won't spend 30M per week only to be able export some P2 stuff from less than a dozen of planets. Instead I'll unsusbscribe my alt's account and I'll buy what I was producing by selling some time codes with the money I was spending on the said alt. Will be cheaper.
Between the rise in POS fuel price due to the PI, the rise on ice products price because of the goons, the price rise on Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone because of the fuel blocks, the price rise because of easier suicide ganks because of the destroyers' buff and such, that tax rise because of the POCOs is the final nail in the coffin.
Should CCP divide that tax by, six, at least, I may think otherwise.
-- Erik |
AyFourDee
The Dutch Corporation Property Management Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Erik Legant wrote:I tried to export some P2s from a planet in lowsec, yesterday evening, and wow, that tax rise is ridiculous.
I won't spend 30M per week only to be able export some P2 stuff from less than a dozen of planets. Instead I'll unsusbscribe my alt's account and I'll buy what I was producing by selling some time codes with the money I was spending on the said alt. Will be cheaper.
Between the rise in POS fuel price due to the PI, the rise on ice products price because of the goons, the price rise on Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone because of the fuel blocks, the price rise because of easier suicide ganks because of the destroyers' buff and such, that tax rise because of the POCOs is the final nail in the coffin.
Should CCP divide that tax by, six, at least, I may think otherwise.
-- Erik
Like Erik, there will be much more who quit there alts, and even there mains....
Curcible.... The backdraft of a Smartbomb.... killing it's own gunner |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
The macro economic effects of this are ridiculous
Effectively CCP doubled the costs of running a POS - no matter where it is or what it's doing.
The degree of profit on any item is irrelavent, prices will just adjust in time - most likely doubling what they were on Monday.
This adjustment will all take time. In all probability PI will vanish from the market for 4-8 weeks whilst people adjust. As a knock on from this pretty much all POS's will have to shutdown for that period (except for the NULL SEC power blocks) and all invention T2 production will cease(no moon goo, no bpc's)
When the prices re-adjust the most likely out come is that highsec T2 production will either cease or double in price (the former is more liekly as the NULL SEC power blocks will be able to undercut highsec production by more than by 50%.
And as has been stated else where the most likely outcome is all the high sec industrialists unsub - and moving to low sec or null sec is not a viable option unless you want to be part of one of the power blocks. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
411
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:The macro economic effects of this are ridiculous
Effectively CCP doubled the costs of running a POS - no matter where it is or what it's doing.
Eh, I call bull-pockey on your numbers. Show your work.
Oct 19th fuel prices (millions of ISK per 30 days):
Amarr: 151 / 231 / 392 Caldari: 158 / 245 / 421 Gallente: 190 / 310 / 549 Minmatar: 174 / 276 / 482
Nov 7th prices:
Amarr: 136 / 213 / 366 Caldari: 140 / 220 / 381 Gallente: 176 / 291 / 523 Minmatar: 139 / 217 / 375
Estimated costs after the new fuel pellets arrive, using the following target prices:
11300 - Coolant 12400 - Enriched Uranium 12200 - Mechanical Parts 400 - Oxygen 90000 - Robotics 2750 - Charters 130 - Heavy Water 500 - Isotope price 420 - Liquid Ozone
Which gives prices of: 105 / 207 / 412 (S/M/L per 30 days)
If isotope prices go back up to 600 ISK/u, then: 112 / 221 / 441 |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Nevryn Takis wrote:The macro economic effects of this are ridiculous
Effectively CCP doubled the costs of running a POS - no matter where it is or what it's doing. Eh, I call bull-pockey on your numbers. Show your work. Oct 19th fuel prices (millions of ISK per 30 days): Amarr: 151 / 231 / 392 Caldari: 158 / 245 / 421 Gallente: 190 / 310 / 549 Minmatar: 174 / 276 / 482 Nov 7th prices: Amarr: 136 / 213 / 366 Caldari: 140 / 220 / 381 Gallente: 176 / 291 / 523 Minmatar: 139 / 217 / 375 Estimated costs after the new fuel pellets arrive, using the following target prices: 11300 - Coolant 12400 - Enriched Uranium 12200 - Mechanical Parts 400 - Oxygen 90000 - Robotics 2750 - Charters 130 - Heavy Water 500 - Isotope price 420 - Liquid Ozone Which gives prices of: 105 / 207 / 412 (S/M/L per 30 days) If isotope prices go back up to 600 ISK/u, then: 112 / 221 / 441 Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change.
Howvever, as of last night the tax on importing 200K isk worth of T1 raw material to a planet is 100K ... so the effects are actually far more significant. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:39:00 -
[68] - Quote
Real Wormhole Numbers
I sat down and plugged the numbers in.
My P1 to P3 factory planet in W-Space
Old Taxes
Import Tax - 25k units of 4 different P1 products - 9,500 isk each Export Tax - 930ish units of P3 - 560,000 isk
Total Tax per unit produced - about 650 isk
Value of Product - 45,000 average = about 1.4% tax on final product
New Taxes
Import Tax - 25k units of 4 different P1 products - 1,062,500 isk each Export Tax - 930ish units of P3 - 11M isk
Total Tax per unit produced - About 16k isk
Value of product to compensate for increased tax = 60k = about 26% tax on final product
So yes the tax burden just soared almost 150x, but the overall cost increase is about 33% to the final goods to cover the new tax. And that is Wormhole tax of 17%. Use HS numbers and it is lower.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
179
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change. Accumulated import/export taxes for all layers, assuming you never export raw materials, but export at every step along the way (pretty much the worst case scenario):
P150 P22,100 P332,500 P4783,000
If you export P1, but do P1 -> P3 at a single planet:
P319,000 P4540,000
If you actually do P2 in the extractor planet, then export for P3 or P4 production:
P320,500 P4378,000
I'm actually going to split this up into import/export taxes next. |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
*happily hugs her 0.1 PI system* |
|
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote: Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change.
Howvever, as of last night the tax on importing 200K isk worth of T1 raw material to a planet is 100K ... so the effects are actually far more significant.
How is a worst case increase in 84 Isk in taxes going to lead to a doubling of P1 goods with an average price of 500-550isk? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
179
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ok, I believe CCP has messed up. They adjusted taxes to a flat rate of market value (at an inflated time, no less). But they didn't take into account the import/export process.
The extractor planet I was focusing in won't really be affected. Their taxes can be easily passed on to the market price, profit untouched.
But, as you go up the chain to P3 and P4, the accumulated taxes from previous layers start to outweight the taxes you pay in that planet.
Even with a single export step before reaching the factory planet, the accumulated export tax for a P4 item is roughly 150k isk, and for a P3 item it's 8k isk. At the factory planet, you have another roughly 200k (P4) or 11k (P3) of combined import/export tax.
The best solution for this would be to reduce the base values progressively as you go up the tiers. |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 16:29:00 -
[73] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:Nevryn Takis wrote: Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change.
Howvever, as of last night the tax on importing 200K isk worth of T1 raw material to a planet is 100K ... so the effects are actually far more significant.
How is a worst case increase in 84 Isk in taxes going to lead to a doubling of P1 goods with an average price of 500-550isk? Prior to the increase my T1 item is say 2isk to buy based on its low tax on export The real world change means that my 2 isk item will rise to 3.5 or 4 isk due to the doubling of the export tax add another 1 for the import tax and my base price is now 4.5 or 5 isk.
So my P2 item which previously had a base cost of 3000 *2 = 6k now has a base cost of 3000 * 4.5 = 15k (approx) Assuming that previously the T2 sold for 10k to make a profit I now need to sell for 20k (ignoring the change in T2 tax) my 80 T2 items that previously cost 80k now cost 160K (ignoring tax change) so I now sell for 200k from 100k previously my 12 T3 items that previously cost 120K now cost 240K(ignoring tax change) so i now sell for 300K as opposed to 150K
Whether you do this on a single planet is irrelavent - it all harks back to the "its free coz I mine it argument" its not. If you sell it for less than the cost to produce then its a loss, even if you're isk balance is posative after producing it. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 16:52:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:Nevryn Takis wrote: Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change.
Howvever, as of last night the tax on importing 200K isk worth of T1 raw material to a planet is 100K ... so the effects are actually far more significant.
How is a worst case increase in 84 Isk in taxes going to lead to a doubling of P1 goods with an average price of 500-550isk? Prior to the increase my T1 item is say 2isk to buy based on its low tax on export The real world change means that my 2 isk item will rise to 3.5 or 4 isk due to the doubling of the export tax add another 1 for the import tax and my base price is now 4.5 or 5 isk. So my P2 item which previously had a base cost of 3000 *2 = 6k now has a base cost of 3000 * 4.5 = 15k (approx) Assuming that previously the T2 sold for 10k to make a profit I now need to sell for 20k (ignoring the change in T2 tax) my 80 T2 items that previously cost 80k now cost 160K (ignoring tax change) so I now sell for 200k from 100k previously my 12 T3 items that previously cost 120K now cost 240K(ignoring tax change) so i now sell for 300K as opposed to 150K Whether you do this on a single planet is irrelavent - it all harks back to the "its free coz I mine it argument" its not. If you sell it for less than the cost to produce then its a loss, even if you're isk balance is posative after producing it.
PI taxes in high sec change according to the price of the good in that region. So if you pass the cost to the customer then the taxes go up to match the increase. Basically CCP is forcing everyone into low/null/W-space where pocos can be blown up left and right, you waste time and ISK defending the pocos, and the sandbox becomes more linear.
All the other changes in Crucible were just a cover for them break PI. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
179
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 17:13:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:PI taxes in high sec change according to the price of the good in that region. So if you pass the cost to the customer then the taxes go up to match the increase. You have no idea what you are talking about.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Quote:Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value.
This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax
The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier
Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
|
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 17:22:00 -
[76] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:Nevryn Takis wrote: Add a zero to the end of the robotics, uranium, and mech part prices, then recalculate ... the effect of the PI change is to double the price of the Tier 1 base commodity. Factor that into the price of all other tiers and you get the real impact of the change.
Howvever, as of last night the tax on importing 200K isk worth of T1 raw material to a planet is 100K ... so the effects are actually far more significant.
How is a worst case increase in 84 Isk in taxes going to lead to a doubling of P1 goods with an average price of 500-550isk? Prior to the increase my T1 item is say 2isk to buy based on its low tax on export The real world change means that my 2 isk item will rise to 3.5 or 4 isk due to the doubling of the export tax add another 1 for the import tax and my base price is now 4.5 or 5 isk. So my P2 item which previously had a base cost of 3000 *2 = 6k now has a base cost of 3000 * 4.5 = 15k (approx) Assuming that previously the T2 sold for 10k to make a profit I now need to sell for 20k (ignoring the change in T2 tax) my 80 T2 items that previously cost 80k now cost 160K (ignoring tax change) so I now sell for 200k from 100k previously my 12 T3 items that previously cost 120K now cost 240K(ignoring tax change) so i now sell for 300K as opposed to 150K Whether you do this on a single planet is irrelavent - it all harks back to the "its free coz I mine it argument" its not. If you sell it for less than the cost to produce then its a loss, even if you're isk balance is posative after producing it.
First stop mixing tier and P levels.
Second, it has almost never been profitable to take P0 level products and export them. Most people make the P1 level product on the extraction planets. So the tax increase on P0 level is near meaningless.
Yes prices are going to have to go up and the poor high sec people will not be able to recoup it. Boo hoo.
The risk we will take with poco in w-space will be rewarded with allowing us to count as profit what you will have to try to pass on. |
mnybag1
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 18:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
AyFourDee wrote:[quote=Jack Dant] 0.1 to 10 is not 9.8% If 100% = 1 than 1000% =10 Base was 1% Tax, riser this with 1000% (increase) it will become 10%Tax 1000% is a multiple of 10 I see it is confusing when using "%" for Tax and the Increase, i should have used The 10 times Multiple
When you say a tax increase you need to say the amount the taxes went up by, as in the taxes used to be 1%, now they are 10%, sp they went up 9%. When the government says theyre increasing taxes by 2%, they do not mean you will pay 35.7% instead of 35%, you will pay 37%. saying the tax went up 1000% to 10% total is a misleading and moronic approach to presenting numbers.
Furthermore, using the above example. you need to do percant change formula which looks like this:
(110-100.1)/110 = .09 or 9% increase.
|
Rex Augustus
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 18:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
tl;dr: prices should and will go up, but they shouldn't double again. If they do, its pure speculation and douchebaggery (welcome to EVE...), primarily by P1 harvesters who think that a 50isk per unit 'cost' increase means that they can increase their prices by 2 or 3 or 4 times that tax amount.
I'm really, really amused here :)
First - okay, my original replies were regarding a factory planet. That's fine, and the numbers still basically work. I'm also one of those weirdos that has always done P1->P2 then export, rather than doing harvest planets and factory planets.
So here's the old taxes per unit for export: P0: 0.1 P1: 0.76 P2: 9.0 P3: 600.0 P4: 50000.
These were 5% taxes, so going back to algebra to figure out the original base value/assessed value, we get the following: P0: 2 P1: 15.2 P2: 180 P3: 12000 P4: 1000000
The new base prices have been posted several times, but here they are again for reference: P0: 5 P1: 500 P2: 9000 P3: 70000 P4: 1350000
The TAX RATE has been doubled from 5% to 10% in high sec, and increased to 17% (or whatever) in WH space [sucks to be you guys, jeez...]. So for those of you saying that the taxes should have been doubled...they were, if you look at the rate rather than the amount of isk drained off. So, really, it isn't the -rate- that you all are really upset about, it's the re-assessment of the value. Had only the RATE changed, you're still basically paying nothing in taxes for everything except P4. Which is stupid.
So what is really biting everyone in the collective rears - on top of the RATE doubling, the ASSESSED VALUE also increased, and with the exception of P4, by quite a bit: P0: 150% P1: 3189% P2: 4900% P3: 483% P4: 35%
So... if you double the rate on top of HUGE assessment increases, you're going to pay a lot more in taxes, but we shouldn't see prices on anything double, including P1 (although they will, and should, go up). Since a LOT of the null-sec constructed fuel will be consumed locally, and they're going to want to maximize their export income if some do jump it out to high sec for sale, they will only undercut to sell faster, but will still look for better margins than they may be getting back home. This also means that the taxation is actually in balance with the market to a much better degree than it had been prior to this change.
Using Robotics as an example, with the following assumptions: Importing P1 to turn into P2 and then P3 with no additional importing of materials: You will have 4 P2 factories for each Robotics factory producing 72 Robotics per day. You will need 80 units of P1 per hour for each of those P2 factories, and you're importing the P1. Assume ~300 isk per unit imported for a total raw import cost of 80 * 300 24000 per factory per hour for P2.
Pre Increase: Single factory taxes, import: ((15.2 * 80) * .05)/2 = 30.4isk Times 4, that's 121.6isk per hour in import taxes. Pocket lint. Export of the resultant 3 Robotics: ((12000 * 3) * .05) = 1800isk for -3- Your material costs were 24k * 4 = 96k
Total isk lost to taxes for 3 Robotics: 1921.6 isk. Per HOUR, or 640.53isk each. These were selling for ~30k 2-3 months ago, or so, and pushing 50k isk per unit just before this change (now 70k+), they were pretty much pure profit (total loss of 1.28% tax selling @50k per unit). You're making, @50k per Robotics, ~49.4k post tax revenue, and a net profit of 17.4k per unit. Per day that comes out to 1,252,800 profit on gross revenue of 3,600,000 per 'chain'.
WIth the new taxes and values: ((500 * 80) *.05)/2 = 2000 Export taxes on the 3 Robotics: ((70000 * 3) * .10 ) = 21,000
But what about the costs of the 320 P1 that were consumed to make the 3 P3? Your export 'costs' to bake in are 4000 isk per factory hour of P2 - so your costs are now 28,000 for an hour of P2, rather than 24,000. How? 500 * 80 * .1 = 4000 isk. That export cost will takle your 80 units that you paid 300 for before Crucible to 350isk each. Nowhere NEAR the 'double' that some folks seem to think will be happening here. Let's say for sake of argument someone decides that they want to increase their profit, too, so we see P1 @400 isk. That means our costs per factory hour are now 32,000, and the total cost to produce 3 Robotics, including all taxes, is now 151,000. If we assume that we want to keep our 17.4k per unit profit, then Robotics pricing only needs to go up to 68k per unit. Not even 70k base price, but only 67k.
If we assume 500isk per P1 unit, we jump to 78.4k per Robotics to make the same profit amount (which makes ~80k the most sensible 'floor').
And finally, if we assume a double from 300 to 600 (which is totally unnecessary, since, again, the taxes per unit P1 are only 50isk and can be recovered by increasing the cost by just that amount), Robotics would then cost ~90k.
Conclusion: Prices will go up. Some people are going to be tools and try to push P1 costs up far, far more than they need to. PI product costs will probably go up just enough to cover MOST of the difference the taxes add into the process, meaning lower profits for most High Sec PI (except P1) . |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
412
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 19:15:00 -
[79] - Quote
Old tariffs vs new tariffs (as a percentage of the market price of the item).
P0 paid 0.10 ISK/u on products worth 1.50-3.50 (about 2.8% to 6.67%) P1 paid 0.76 ISK/u on products worth 200-800 (anywhere from 0.095% to 0.38%) P2 paid 9.00 ISK/u on stuff worth 6k-10k (about 0.09% to 0.15%) P3 paid 600 ISK/u on stuff worth 35k to 70k (0.86% to 1.7%) P4 paid 100000 ISK on stuff worth 500k to 1200k (8.3% to 20%)
Under today's prices and the new CONCORD tariffs:
P0 - 10% to 20% effective rate P1 - 6.7% to 33% P2 - 7.5% to 17% P3 - 6% to 11% P4 - 6% to 12%
Under the old system, the tariffs on P1/P2 were a joke compared to the other tiers. So everyone got lazy and stopped including those tariffs in their import/export calculations. Even the P3 tariffs were a bit of a joke. From a point of consistency, the new tariffs make a lot more sense across the P1-P4 tiers. As the cheaper P1/P2 products rise a bit in value, you'll see 6-12% tariffs across all of the tiers.
Now you have to pay attention to the tariffs and decide how many steps you want to do on a single planet. The more effort you put in (and the more tiers that you can skip), the better positioned you will be to make a profit at a price point below what your competitor (who is stuck in the old mindset) can survive at. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:11:00 -
[80] - Quote
GaKarr wrote:Just installed patch , as usual my daily task is exporting Enriched unranium from my planets to customs office to haul to station, last night pre-patch from each launch pad i export approx 750 to 850 Units of Enriched Unranium, this would cost approx 8,000 iskies , now the same amount post patch is 724,000 isk !!!! This is in a high sec 0.5 system, this is absolutley nuts,
To import refined materials for about 10 k of each would cost about 8,000 now its 100,000 !!
Check your walllets guys when you are doing that importing/exporting , NO WAY are they meant to be this high , 1000% increase , this has got to be a bug.
I expect you've already been told this, but mate you are completely wrong in your figures.
P1 tax value increased by ~32 P2 tax value increased by ~50 P3 tax value increased by ~5.8
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AploM5dd7fuEdGNvSXRsUFlYekExMHdCbjRqczZOcEE&authkey=CK78g4kO&hl=en_GB&pli=1#gid=49
In my spreadsheet linked above you can see that most goods do sell at or above the new tariff values. Stop trying to sell the ones which are priced terribly. Serious, if the goods which you are selling are worth much less than the equivalent '100% tariff" then you are in the wrong market mate. I'd go so far as to say you'd make more isk selling the P1 items than the P2 items and are in fact losing isk each time you combine them into a P2 item. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
|
Puissant
Tempora Heroica
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:[ In my spreadsheet linked above you can see that most goods do sell at or above the new tariff values. Stop trying to sell the ones which are priced terribly. Serious, if the goods which you are selling are worth much less than the equivalent '100% tariff" then you are in the wrong market mate. I'd go so far as to say you'd make more isk selling the P1 items than the P2 items and are in fact losing isk each time you combine them into a P2 item.
You just keep posting the same thing. If an item on the market was unsellable because CCP wanted to ISK sink it's value before it got to the market, like say a Tech 2 Invulnerability Field, you wouldnt be saying this. Everyone would be saying "what the frell, CCP? Why are you hating on this one module?" But somehow, because you don't do high-sec PI, your opinion is valid that it's ok to turn high-sec PI into a "privilege to help CCP sink ISK". Bravo. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:AyFourDee wrote:[quote=Jack Dant] 0.1 to 10 is not 9.8% If 100% = 1 than 1000% =10 Base was 1% Tax, riser this with 1000% (increase) it will become 10%Tax 1000% is a multiple of 10 I see it is confusing when using "%" for Tax and the Increase, i should have used The 10 times Multiple When you say a tax increase you need to say the amount the taxes went up by, as in the taxes used to be 1%, now they are 10%, sp they went up 9%. When the government says theyre increasing taxes by 2%, they do not mean you will pay 35.7% instead of 35%, you will pay 37%. saying the tax went up 1000% to 10% total is a misleading and moronic approach to presenting numbers. Furthermore, using the above example. you need to do percant change formula which looks like this: (110-100.1)/110 = .09 or 9% increase.
I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.
The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.
So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.
|
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery Dead On Arrival Alliance
425
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 23:13:00 -
[83] - Quote
Seriously.
Some of you are UNSUBBING because your almost worthless highsec activity is now even more worthless?
Risk : Reward, retards. If you won't risk doing PI where it is valuable ... you don't get to reap the rewards.
Working as intended, finally. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 23:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Seriously. Some of you are UNSUBBING because your almost worthless highsec activity is now even more worthless?
I think R&D, BPO researching, and invention is boring. Does that give me the right to call it worthless? No. It's fun for someone I'm sure.
I liked PI and I liked that I could make a decent living being a PI mogul. Now it's a sub-micro-career. Thanks CCP. Next time just remove the entire feature instead of nerfing it into oblivion. |
freils
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 23:38:00 -
[85] - Quote
Using existing Command centers the cost for 500 units of Robotics will cost 5m isk to export.
It seems to keep running my POS feasable, I will have to replace 14 customs offices, So i can adjust the tax rate.
But also have the addition of having to defend/reinforce.. with currently, a 3 man corp trying to survive in 0.0
Seems to me CCP would rather Small corps run from stations, rather than try to expand and inhabit the vast wasteland we call 0.0. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery Dead On Arrival Alliance
426
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 09:22:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:Seriously. Some of you are UNSUBBING because your almost worthless highsec activity is now even more worthless? I think R&D, BPO researching, and invention is boring. Does that give me the right to call it worthless? No. It's fun for someone I'm sure. I was referring to income rate, not the potential fun factor. The income from it was already terrible in highsec. The fact you spent time doing it in highsec, is indicative of the problem.
Quote:Thanks CCP. Next time just remove the entire feature instead of nerfing it into oblivion. They haven't "nerfed" it - 90% of the increased costs is the fact that you were riding a gravytrain of incorrectly calculated costs. They have fixed that issue, and made it so players can avoid it entirely in low/null. If all you knee-jerk bears weren't so stupid and reactionary, you'd realise you should: a) Still be making money if your setup was half decent in the first place b) That prices will inevitably rise due to this, and thus so too will your profits. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
44
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 14:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
Puissant wrote:You just keep posting the same thing. If an item on the market was unsellable because CCP wanted to ISK sink it's value before it got to the market, like say a Tech 2 Invulnerability Field, you wouldnt be saying this. Everyone would be saying "what the frell, CCP? Why are you hating on this one module?" But somehow, because you don't do high-sec PI, your opinion is valid that it's ok to turn high-sec PI into a "privilege to help CCP sink ISK". Bravo.
I don't really understand your example to be honest. And I clearly *do* have experience with High-sec PI mate - check my sig.
I understand your point that the tax currently makes it relatively unprofitable to extract and sell certain PI items on the market due to the blanket tariff prices per tier. But this only applies to transforming it from (say) P1 to P2. I would just say don't do this then. Focus on a different P2 item to make.
Since this problem doesn't apply to all items in the tier the actual problem is oversupply of some items compared to market demand. The oversupply has pushed the market value down. What *should* happen is that people stop trying to extract and produce that item and once the supply goes down the price will come back up to a profitable price again.
The only aspect of the game which will mean this might not happen is the attitude of "minerals I mine/extract are free" and hence *any* price they get is fine as it is above zero. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:08:00 -
[88] - Quote
Well there certainly are many many different ways of looking at this.
But no matter how you look at it this will over time cause huge inflation in the EVE market.
Everything in EVE is made by players. most common items sold in Jita have very tight profit margins.
If the costs of the base materials goes up drastically, which is what has just happened with PI products, needed for every thing Tech 2 and POS fuel, the prices of the products produced from those base materials will also go up.
I thought the whole point of CCP hiring that economist guy wast to curb the market inflation in the EVE economy. This PI change will have to oposite of the intended effect.
Care bears will not under any circumstances move their operations to low or null. there are null sec indy pilots, but they have learned to live with the risks that go along with that. High sec huging carebears will unsub before they move to low or null. most of these players enjoy the social aspects of the game but have no interest in PVP.
Considering +80% of all goods in the EVE economy are created by high sec carebears this is a big problem.
If the base price is left as is and not updated the market will stabilize at a much higher level with eventually everything costing more isk.
This makes it much harder for new player to get a foot hold in EVE. Unless they are going to start giving new characters 10,000,000 isk starting capital instead of 5,000 isk they have just pushed new players out of the PI market. No new player can afford to pay millions in import/export taxes. Give your head a shake CPP, WTF were you thinking. You obviously missed some big factors in your impact assessment.
PI was introduced as a passive income available to all including brand new players only a few days old. |
Caveman Dreadstalker
Society of lost Souls
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
Like Bugsy said.
WTF
Wasn't PI supposed to be an easy to get into mechanic for new players?
What new player can afford these tax rates?
Send a new player to null before they even know how to play?
This makes no sense to me. |
Ariane VoxDei
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:48:00 -
[90] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:I understand your point that the tax currently makes it relatively unprofitable to extract and sell certain PI items on the market due to the blanket tariff prices per tier. But this only applies to transforming it from (say) P1 to P2. I would just say don't do this then. Focus on a different P2 item to make.
Since this problem doesn't apply to all items in the tier the actual problem is oversupply of some items compared to market demand. The oversupply has pushed the market value down. What *should* happen is that people stop trying to extract and produce that item and once the supply goes down the price will come back up to a profitable price again.
The only aspect of the game which will mean this might not happen is the attitude of "minerals I mine/extract are free" and hence *any* price they get is fine as it is above zero. Our real problem, in regard to getting those underpriced intermediates off the market, is that we are not allowed to reprocess PI products, intermediate or otherwise. If we were, we would be buying up the underpriced products, "melting them" and relisting as correctly prices raws or precessing into what has demand, as long as there is a sufficient arbitration gap. However, even if that was allowed, the taxes now provide a significant arbitration barrier, even if we could smelt in station for free. Taxed in the import of the smelted raws, and taxed on the output P1/P2/P3/P4. I wont tire you with my numbers (and my new sheet is incomplete), but you know the basics. 5% on the input, and 10% on the output (of which there considerably less).
If we didnt have to deal with that taxbarrier and if we could melt those intermediates, then "we" (the hisec industry and markets) would soon see to it that they were priced correctly and act like "the invisible hand" of Smith fame.
It wouldnt deal with overproduction of some P1/P0, but it would see to it that all p2-P4 products get balanced around the correct prices as per raw material cost.
|
|
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
Ariane VoxDei wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:I understand your point that the tax currently makes it relatively unprofitable to extract and sell certain PI items on the market due to the blanket tariff prices per tier. But this only applies to transforming it from (say) P1 to P2. I would just say don't do this then. Focus on a different P2 item to make.
Since this problem doesn't apply to all items in the tier the actual problem is oversupply of some items compared to market demand. The oversupply has pushed the market value down. What *should* happen is that people stop trying to extract and produce that item and once the supply goes down the price will come back up to a profitable price again.
The only aspect of the game which will mean this might not happen is the attitude of "minerals I mine/extract are free" and hence *any* price they get is fine as it is above zero. Our real problem, in regard to getting those underpriced intermediates off the market, is that we are not allowed to reprocess PI products, intermediate or otherwise. If we were, we would be buying up the underpriced products, "melting them" and relisting as correctly prices raws or precessing into what has demand, as long as there is a sufficient arbitration gap. However, even if that was allowed, the taxes now provide a significant arbitration barrier, even if we could smelt in station for free. Taxed in the import of the smelted raws, and taxed on the output P1/P2/P3/P4. I wont tire you with my numbers (and my new sheet is incomplete), but you know the basics. 5% on the input, and 10% on the output (of which there considerably less). If we didnt have to deal with that taxbarrier and if we could melt those intermediates, then "we" (the hisec industry and markets) would soon see to it that they were priced correctly and act like "the invisible hand" of Smith fame. It wouldnt deal with overproduction of some P1/P0, but it would see to it that all p2-P4 products get balanced around the correct prices as per raw material cost.
I don't think being able to reprocess the materials will help. Allow some time for the prices to come up the P1 > P4 chain and for people to dump large stock of PI products they have. I think at least 2 weeks will be required before we can analyse the market for data and make conclusions.
Personally, I'd have liked POCOs to have been extended to highsec too (with some restrictions on tax rates and possibly an ownership flip mechanic rather than destruction) in order to capitalise on the factory planets around Jita. However they have decided to allow highsec to prop up volumes on the PI market - and I do empathise with the caution employed here. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
116
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:25:00 -
[92] - Quote
The classic thing about this is that the entire community is going to cry when the price of just about everything goes up in the coming days. Lowsec PI usage is going to drop significantly, further increasing demand. POS fuel is going to become significantly more expensive as the producers pass along their new pain to the consumers. I expect the commodities currently on the market to evaporate quickly at the current price points as folks buy it all up to resell in a couple weeks.
Good times ahead. |
Count Rais
CyberShield Inc ROMANIAN-LEGION
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:12:00 -
[93] - Quote
Let's not forget why this really happened. It's to create a storyline/tie-in for a console game I could give a rats ass about. Running a POS sucks more now than it ever has... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Seriously.
Some of you are UNSUBBING because your almost worthless highsec activity is now even more worthless?
Risk : Reward, retards. If you won't risk doing PI where it is valuable ... you don't get to reap the rewards.
Working as intended, finally.
Oh, another clueless one saying 'risk reward!' again.
Please.
Let me be blunt: eve is about dodging risk and stealing reward. Even the PvP is 'risk adverse'.
Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.
I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.
To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.
Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.
Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.
But just think about that. Two Years.
Risk vs reward indeed.
BTW: I'm surprised that CCP hasn't locked this thread yet too. |
Vhan
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 23:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
I mentioned this in another thread that got locked:
Most MMO developers have learned from other MMO mistakes to not mess with their core carebear playerbase. CCP is not playing it safe with this change. CCP is known for making tough decisions, however. Balance changes to rigs negatively impacting salvaging profits comes to mind.
Changing a popular playstyle (granted, PI is slightly more advanced than small ship PvE and mining) can shell shock their largest playerbase and drive them away.
The fallout of the tax rate change will take a while to settle, as far as market price readjustments and the shock to PI participation. Until the general fallout subsides, my advice is to wait and closely watch what the market does, while producing in PI and adjusting to that market.
Risk versus reward? It was already there, with increased resources from PI in lower security systems. BTW- Carebears do not care about risk, as long as they are having fun. A large population of the game does not care about PvP and are focused on profits and enjoying the other game systems (market, mining, sites, industry, science, etc).
The playstyle of having fun: Not having your gaming experience interrupted/changed after you've become accustomed to doing something fun. Introduce new systems with new sinks to get to your balance goals. It's something I learned early on as a systems designer on Ultima Online (even though management sometimes ignored my cries for sanity).
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
427
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:00:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.
I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.
If you're only making 300k average per day per world, then you're doing it wrong. Especially in lo-sec.
Hi-sec PI harvest planets, with daily or every other day resets of the ECUs, can easily make 800-1200k ISK/day (average price during October / early November) for each planet. Even after paying 50 ISK/u for export tariffs to take the goods to market. And that's with only Command Center Upgrades IV (not V).
1-2 ECUs, 2-4 BIFs, 1 LP is the standard setup. Move your ECUs no more often then once a week to save a bit of ISK, never move the LP/BIFs (maybe once every 3-6 months).
P2 factory world (3 LPs 18 AIFs) that takes P1 from the market and makes P2. Makes 2-3M ISK per day, even post-tariff.
|
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:08:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vhan wrote:I mentioned this in another thread that got locked:
Most MMO developers have learned from other MMO mistakes to not mess with their core carebear playerbase. CCP is not playing it safe with this change. CCP is known for making tough decisions, however. Balance changes to rigs negatively impacting salvaging profits comes to mind.
Changing a popular playstyle (granted, PI is slightly more advanced than small ship PvE and mining) can shell shock their largest playerbase and drive them away.
The fallout of the tax rate change will take a while to settle, as far as market price readjustments and the shock to PI participation. Until the general fallout subsides, my advice is to wait and closely watch what the market does, while producing in PI and adjusting to that market.
Risk versus reward? It was already there, with increased resources from PI in lower security systems. BTW- Carebears do not care about risk, as long as they are having fun. A large population of the game does not care about PvP and are focused on profits and enjoying the other game systems (market, mining, sites, industry, science, etc).
The playstyle of having fun: Not having your gaming experience interrupted/changed after you've become accustomed to doing something fun. Introduce new systems with new sinks to get to your balance goals. It's something I learned early on as a systems designer on Ultima Online (even though management sometimes ignored my cries for sanity).
There is so much wrong with what you've written there that I don't know where to start.
Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.
CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI. They simple do not drive the sandbox storylines of the game which keep the majority of people playing.
Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market. Without PVP you gut market demand. Who is going to buy minerals or stuff from the LP store or anything else for that matter is it isn't to replace ships and assets lost in PVP.
That's about as far as I can be bothered to write.. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:08:00 -
[98] - Quote
You're assuming too much there Bob.
You fail to factor ship loss, clone costs, and any import taxes. Those are also losses that count against your profits. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:17:00 -
[99] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote: There is so much wrong with what you've written there that I don't know where to start.
Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.
CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI. They simple do not drive the sandbox storylines of the game which keep the majority of people playing.
Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market. Without PVP you gut market demand. Who is going to buy minerals or stuff from the LP store or anything else for that matter is it isn't to replace ships and assets lost in PVP.
That's about as far as I can be bothered to write..
As a carebear, I have enough isk I really don't care about it. What I do care about is CCP trying to force certain styles of gameplay.
I AM however, curious about this 'sandbox storylines' thing you speak of. I've played this toon since 04 and the game since 03, and this is the first I've heard of this. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
Unless you mean that carebears don't have private GM's/Devs like the major alliances do, and then I'll admit that yes, we're sadly lacking in having our own pet CCP employees to lobby for us.
ANd, conversly, without carebears, who is going to mine for those ships that Pvp looses? I've actually had to sit and listen to a bunch of PvPers have to mine their replacement ships when I refused to do so for them.
If you think that people whine on the forum, try that sometime. They put the forum whines to shame. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:You fail to factor ship loss, clone costs, and any import taxes. Those are also losses that count against your profits. If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses.
And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare. |
|
Vhan
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:38:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote: Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.
CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI.
Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market.
You've missed the point of my post entirely. It is about shocking a playstyle and pointing out a risk versus reward already existed.
Carebears not caring for risk implies that they do not wish to involve themselves in a high risk situation, which is the same as a lower tolerance for risk. That is their playstyle.
CCP definitely has to consider their own form of risk with an update and that is risk analysis of a game change. It's common practice for a large system change to include a risk analysis along with the design documentation and technical doc (or, atleast, I've written many many risk analysis docs for changes).
Stating that CCP "should not care too deeply about carebears" is like stating "CCP should not care deeply about its largest share of customers". CCP would lose a massive amount of revenue with that attitude. I can only surmise that you are attempting to troll with that backward statement.
It's obvious that PvP drives a good portion of the market, but that is way off topic and has nothing to do with my post. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:31:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses.
And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare.
Jack, I fly a blockade runner cloaked.
And, if you're not getting podded, than whoever is the tackler is for your local PvP corp, sucks.
I always factor in the possibility of at least two losses, because I have to contend with heavy alliance action in my area. Hot dropping carriers isn't their only trick, you know. If I don't lose them, I made additional profit. But when I figure my numbers, I always factor it in. |
Broomhilde
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:53:00 -
[103] - Quote
Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.
^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass.
Done. |
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC. Blue Moon Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:20:00 -
[104] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.
I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.
To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.
Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.
Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.
But just think about that. Two Years.
Risk vs reward indeed.
You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:44:00 -
[105] - Quote
Marsan wrote:
You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.
Marsan, I have about three planets that I even have a single other player using.
How much you think I'm gonna get at 10%?
BTW: I actually did look into doing one myself: while it will only take me an hour or two to kill the existing interbus unit, the 200m that the POCO currently costs seems like wasted isk. |
Katowen
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 09:10:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:
I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.
The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.
So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.
That's the root of the problem right there....
CCP didn't say a WORD about the base price of the goods being the average of Nov 2011 trade price index now for this release as compared to the 2009 average for the index of the good.
If they would have said the index price was also going up, we would have heard a lot more pre-whining but people wouldn't be as bitchy as they are now.
Katowen
Katowen |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:08:00 -
[107] - Quote
Forum ate full reply
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Jack, I fly a blockade runner cloaked.
And, if you're not getting podded, than whoever is the tackler is for your local PvP corp, sucks. Not really. With the spam warp method, your pod is in warp before it even shows on everybody's overview. You can't start to lock it. I know this, because people do it to me all the time. And saving extreme bad luck or pilot error, you shouldn't really lose a BR.
Quote:Marsan, I have about three planets that I even have a single other player using.
How much you think I'm gonna get at 10%? Roughly 200-300k isk/day per colony on the planet. So you would nearly double your profits! |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:31:00 -
[108] - Quote
Broomhilde wrote:Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP. ^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass. Done.
You do know that those customers (like me, who do business with POSes and T2 production) are perfectly prepared for this "raping" of yours. Please keep selling the goods at a price you find profitable. I'll keep buying them and then shifting the cost to the people buying the goods I produce.
Or you can give up and let someone else take up the slack.
Either way, I'm a buyer of PI goods (4 bil ISK bought over the past week, partially to top up stockpiles as the prices are heading up) and I will remain a buyer of PI goods, no matter what the price is. It is up to you (and other PI producers) to determine what price to sell the goods at. I'm quite sure the market will make sure the lowest profitable price is on top of the "sell orders" list.
If you cannot comprehend this, may I suggest some education in business econ 101?
|
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:36:00 -
[109] - Quote
Katowen wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:
I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.
The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.
So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.
That's the root of the problem right there.... CCP didn't say a WORD about the base price of the goods being the average of Nov 2011 trade price index now for this release as compared to the 2009 average for the index of the good. If they would have said the index price was also going up, we would have heard a lot more pre-whining but people wouldn't be as bitchy as they are now. Katowen
Initially CCP was just as clueless as most PI producers seem to be. Hence the announcement about "taxes are going to be doubled".
However, some players did the math and pointed out that at these completely insignificant tax rates (where "5 percent tax" was not actually 5 percent tax on the market price of the goods, but on some completely imaginary base price that then worked out to a fraction of a single percent) meant that nobody would build POCOs because it would literally take years to pay off the investment even if you could work at 0% tax (or tax others, even at 100% "tax rate").
Then CCP suddenly realized that what they thought was "5% tax on PI goods" was not actually that, so they revised the "prices for taxation purposes" at the very last moment - a very much needed change - and failed to communicate that properly.
Now the taxes actually reflect reality. If POCO taxes at 10%, it will be 10% of a rate that is at least close to market prices. Personally I'd wish the "prices for taxation purposes" would automatically be recalculated monthly or quarterly, based on average real market prices, but that involves :code: and :effort: from CCP, so until then this last minute hack job works as a placeholder.
|
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:39:00 -
[110] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.
I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.
To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.
Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.
Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.
But just think about that. Two Years.
Risk vs reward indeed.
You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.
Only reason POCO replacement isn't happening yet is because the price of POCO hardware is still over-inflated. Only people buying POCO structures are math-deficient WH dwellers that just want that magical 0% tax rate for their private hole.
Give it a few weeks.
|
|
Vihura
Vihura Cor
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:09:00 -
[111] - Quote
All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose. Fack some people just don't want adapt and learn. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:27:00 -
[112] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Marsan wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.
I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.
To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.
Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.
Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.
But just think about that. Two Years.
Risk vs reward indeed.
You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank. Only reason POCO replacement isn't happening yet is because the price of POCO hardware is still over-inflated. Only people buying POCO structures are math-deficient WH dwellers that just want that magical 0% tax rate for their private hole. Give it a few weeks. 1. POCO's are made using P4 mats so as they go up in price due to the tax increase the cost of installing POCO's will go up. The price they are costing right now is the lowest they will ever cost. 2. Learn wtf you are talking about before talking about something. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:39:00 -
[113] - Quote
The cost of cap ship parts is not likely to go down much because of this, the initial cost of the gantry is in the 100m range. The additional PI items to bring it online are currently about 90m and climbing in my region. |
Katowen
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote: Now the taxes actually reflect reality. If POCO taxes at 10%, it will be 10% of a rate that is at least close to market prices. Personally I'd wish the "prices for taxation purposes" would automatically be recalculated monthly or quarterly, based on average real market prices, but that involves :code: and :effort: from CCP, so until then this last minute hack job works as a placeholder.
I agree with you...I do wish that the price index of PI good would adjust base on market values over X amount of time too. That way, taxes are not static or too low / high for a PI type.
Katowen Katowen |
Boris Ginnungagap
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:52:00 -
[115] - Quote
Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP. You add that 550 000 into your sell order. Simple. |
Ragneir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:58:00 -
[116] - Quote
I'm derpy the care bear. I like magical rainbows, peace and love.
O noes CCP has coded in something that nerfs my high sec income its time to complain!
I fully understand that I would have to group up with pvpers to maintain PI in low or null sec but that screws up with my fluffy vibes and that is a no go.
I could go into a WH but I could run into pirates! Even though WH pirates are not too common I don't want blood on my fur!
So my best resort is to complain about a mechanic that can't get along with my Fluffalicious gameplay. I refuse to adapt to new mechanics so only change low sec and 0.0! |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:49:00 -
[117] - Quote
It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.
Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.
Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream.
Arkonor? Really? Really?
You think we mine? |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
182
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:08:00 -
[119] - Quote
0% tax in my riskless null sec space 8)
also hahaha he thinks people who own 76 tek moons mine
hahaha we own one and even we don't mine |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:35:00 -
[120] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote:
Arkonor? Really? Really?
You think we mine?
You, personally, no, I doubt you have the patience. But others do, and they work for, or are alts of, goons, meaning they're part of your income too.
And, notice, neither of them denied the rats bit.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:FastJack316 wrote:
Arkonor? Really? Really?
You think we mine?
You, personally, no, I doubt you have the patience. But others do, and they work for, or are alts of, goons, meaning they're part of your income too. And, notice, neither of them denied the rats bit.
No, we don't. I can guarantee you that nobody in Goonwaffe mines and if you ever find someone who does I promise I will ask the Directorate for authority to give them an incredibly demeaning title or shoot them.
And of course we're not going to deny we make ISK ratting, that's where the main body of goons gets their cash. 0.0 complexes have shitloads of battleship and battlecruiser rats that our focus on PvP skillpoints lets us kill. Nothing close to what a dedicated L4 empire mission runner with his officer fit tengu or Incursion runners will make, but you don't seem particularly angry about them. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:05:00 -
[122] - Quote
ratting.. you mean botting.. no need to lie about it, CCP doesnt even care.... |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:57:00 -
[123] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:FastJack316 wrote:
Arkonor? Really? Really?
You think we mine?
You, personally, no, I doubt you have the patience. But others do, and they work for, or are alts of, goons, meaning they're part of your income too. And, notice, neither of them denied the rats bit.
Nobody mines in 0.0 (except maybe Intrepid Crossing, but they are the exception that proves the point). Other activities make so much ISK that 0.0 dwellers who need minerals can just buy them from high sec peons who lick asteroids 23/7 for pennies.
The only real mineral source in 0.0 is drone rats (drone goo refines into minerals) and that's probably where most of the high end materials come (=ratting). Prices would have to rise considerably before there is much point in mining the 0.0 rocks.
|
Riley Moore
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 08:59:00 -
[124] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:FastJack316 wrote:
Arkonor? Really? Really?
You think we mine?
You, personally, no, I doubt you have the patience. But others do, and they work for, or are alts of, goons, meaning they're part of your income too. And, notice, neither of them denied the rats bit. Nobody mines in 0.0 (except maybe Intrepid Crossing, but they are the exception that proves the point). Other activities make so much ISK that 0.0 dwellers who need minerals can just buy them from high sec peons who lick asteroids 23/7 for pennies. The only real mineral source in 0.0 is drone rats (drone goo refines into minerals) and that's probably where most of the high end materials come (=ratting). Prices would have to rise considerably before there is much point in mining the 0.0 rocks.
Until, in a not so distance patch, drone rats stop dropping dronegoo and have bounties instead. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:22:00 -
[125] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:You fail to factor ship loss, clone costs, and any import taxes. Those are also losses that count against your profits. If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses. And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare.
I agree. If you fly something like a blockade runner, the losses are negligible. I've flown a blockade runner in low sec off and on for something like three years and occasionally in null sec. Never lost one. Cygnet, you are doing something wrong, especially given your claim that you're only making 300k per planet. But I don't find this surprising after reading your posts in this thread. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 17:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Seriously.
Risk : Reward, retards. If you won't risk doing PI where it is valuable ... you don't get to reap the rewards.
Working as intended, finally.
This, Mr ******, only works if you only do extract+P1, export them and sell them.
People like me who BUY P1 to make P4 and then use them to build things are screwed.
Buy P1 more expensive, pay P1 import taxes, pay P4 export taxes, sell them for ... how much ? To have my old income again, i'd have to sell them 4mil each. Who gonna buy ?
And i don't need to go in nullsec or w/e to install factory planets or POS. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:26:00 -
[127] - Quote
So what will people who need p4 do, then? |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:42:00 -
[128] - Quote
Go back to mining ? It pays more... |
Gorgon Spinoza
Solaris Project Border World Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 01:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
I work all day to earn Euro's to pay CCP for my EVE account. The RL goverment taxes my income very much like a maffia organization. CCP hits me with even more taxes - f%$@g hell.
CCP is creating a huge money-sink to take out billions of ISK out of the game. Buying a PLEX with ISK is not an option now since we will all go broke on taxes. Instead I am forced to draw my creditcard again.
To me this looks as a cheap scam to steal my ISK. Suprisingly it is not a player scamming me now but God ... (correction) CCP Almighty.
Has no-one ever thought you guys; never bite the hand that feeds you? |
Menrith Hadel
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 03:26:00 -
[130] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.
Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream. The Mittani wants moons (Tech, at least) nerfed, and has pushed for this as leader of the CSM. I'm interested to see what you'll come up with to reconcile that with your Goons-as-Illuminati worldview. |
|
Sage Revinour
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 04:09:00 -
[131] - Quote
Broomhilde wrote:Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP. ^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass. Done.
Contemplating shutting down my towers now, since high sec PI has been gutted. And with no towers, 50% of this game is not worth bothering with. Will make a decision to stick with no PI/Industry, or just bail (4 accounts).
And yes, this is an alt. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 08:31:00 -
[132] - Quote
Sage Revinour wrote:Broomhilde wrote:Frederheim wrote:PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP. ^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass. Done. Contemplating shutting down my towers now, since high sec PI has been gutted. And with no towers, 50% of this game is not worth bothering with. Will make a decision to stick with no PI/Industry, or just bail (4 accounts). And yes, this is an alt.
Have you considered Economics 101?
If the towers are not producing profit even with fuel bought from the market, why did you run them? Your POS fuel parts from PI are not free. Never were. If the only way you could profit from the towers was by making the fuel, you would have profited the same (or more) by just making fuel for the market.
Why are so many people so bad at math and basic business logic? Has TV and today's education mushed the brains of everyone or what...!?
|
Hoohnzy
Vintage heavy industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 12:20:00 -
[133] - Quote
Vihura wrote:All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose. Fack some people just don't want adapt and learn.
Yea recalculate, but who will buy if there are others selling under this price because they have no tax? Like the diference between Veldspar mining crystal II made from invented BPC and BPO. I dont want to whine about T2 BPO. I just want to say, that noone will buy my Veldspar crystal II from invented -4/-4 BPC for 200k if they are selling for 100k from 20/x researched BPO. |
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 14:33:00 -
[134] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Old tariffs vs new tariffs (as a percentage of the market price of the item).
P0 paid 0.10 ISK/u on products worth 1.50-3.50 (about 2.8% to 6.67%) P1 paid 0.76 ISK/u on products worth 200-800 (anywhere from 0.095% to 0.38%) P2 paid 9.00 ISK/u on stuff worth 6k-10k (about 0.09% to 0.15%) P3 paid 600 ISK/u on stuff worth 35k to 70k (0.86% to 1.7%) P4 paid 100000 ISK on stuff worth 500k to 1200k (8.3% to 20%)
Under today's prices and the new CONCORD tariffs:
P0 - 10% to 20% effective rate P1 - 6.7% to 33% P2 - 7.5% to 17% P3 - 6% to 11% P4 - 6% to 12%
Under the old system, the tariffs on P1/P2 were a joke compared to the other tiers. So everyone got lazy and stopped including those tariffs in their import/export calculations. Even the P3 tariffs were a bit of a joke. From a point of consistency, the new tariffs make a lot more sense across the P1-P4 tiers. As the cheaper P1/P2 products rise a bit in value, you'll see 6-12% tariffs across all of the tiers.
Now you have to pay attention to the tariffs and decide how many steps you want to do on a single planet. The more effort you put in (and the more tiers that you can skip), the better positioned you will be to make a profit at a price point below what your competitor (who is stuck in the old mindset) can survive at. ^^ THIS
I paid milions of tax per day cuz I was producing P4. Other tiers had almost 0% tax compared. Now in the new system my tax just went up by 170%
Old system P4 market coasts 1.000.000 isk/unit New system P4 market coasts 1.085.000 isk/unit
Rly nothing to panic. The customer pays the tax.
|
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 14:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Hoohnzy wrote:Vihura wrote:All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose. Fack some people just don't want adapt and learn. Yea recalculate, but who will buy if there are others selling under this price because they have no tax? Like the diference between Veldspar mining crystal II made from invented BPC and BPO. I dont want to whine about T2 BPO. I just want to say, that noone will buy my Veldspar crystal II from invented -4/-4 BPC for 200k if they are selling for 100k from 20/x researched BPO.
The vast majority comes from highsec and that sets the price. The only effect of the tax is that those who are doing it under their own (invested, expensive) POCOs profit more. They won't be supplying enough to set the price level.
|
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 15:30:00 -
[136] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote:No, we don't. I can guarantee you that nobody in Goonwaffe mines and if you ever find someone who does I promise I will ask the Directorate for authority to give them an incredibly demeaning title or shoot them.
Then you should better watch what is happening in Deklein.
5S-KXA, industry level 5 (B: 7) 85-B52, industry level 4 (B: 10) 3JN9-Q, industry level 3 (B: 14) O-2RNZ, industry level 1 (B: 8+3) K5F-Z2, industry level 2 (B: 8) AD-CBT, industry level 1 (B: 16) R8S-1K, industry level 2 (B 6+1)
Industry index is maintained only with mining. Maybe in Goonwaffe nobody mines, but not in CONDI. Or is it some carebear slaves (bots?) working for you ? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 15:36:00 -
[137] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:FastJack316 wrote:No, we don't. I can guarantee you that nobody in Goonwaffe mines and if you ever find someone who does I promise I will ask the Directorate for authority to give them an incredibly demeaning title or shoot them. Then you should better watch what is happening in Deklein. 5S-KXA, industry level 5 (B: 7) 85-B52, industry level 4 (B: 10) 3JN9-Q, industry level 3 (B: 14) O-2RNZ, industry level 1 (B: 8+3) K5F-Z2, industry level 2 (B: 8) AD-CBT, industry level 1 (B: 16) R8S-1K, industry level 2 (B 6+1) Industry index is maintained only with mining. Maybe in Goonwaffe nobody mines, but not in CONDI. Or is it some carebear slaves (bots?) working for you ?
Shush, we're not supposed to know that goons are lying through their teeth in order to get what they want. It's 'social PvP'.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 15:37:00 -
[138] - Quote
Oops |
Borun Tal
One More Corp
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 16:55:00 -
[139] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Have you considered Economics 101?
--usual "opportunity cost"/"minerals are free" goose-stepping snipped--
Why are so many people so bad at math and basic business logic? Has TV and today's education mushed the brains of everyone or what...!?
Think about it for a second, I'm sure it'll come to you.
Or not. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 18:12:00 -
[140] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:Then you should better watch what is happening in Deklein.
5S-KXA, industry level 5 (B: 7) 85-B52, industry level 4 (B: 10) 3JN9-Q, industry level 3 (B: 14) O-2RNZ, industry level 1 (B: 8+3) K5F-Z2, industry level 2 (B: 8) AD-CBT, industry level 1 (B: 16) R8S-1K, industry level 2 (B 6+1)
Industry index is maintained only with mining. Maybe in Goonwaffe nobody mines, but not in CONDI. Or is it some carebear slaves (bots?) working for you ? Dearie me, a whole 4 systems where there's some sporadic mining going on, and 3 where there might be some organized mining going on. Quick, to EN24.
Compare the number of mining systems to total systems in GSF space to, say, NCdot and their pets, Raidendot, and all the russian space. What do you get? |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 18:25:00 -
[141] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: ---gets caught in a lie---- BUT OTHERS ARE DOING IT MORE!!!
Sorry, something > nothing.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 18:29:00 -
[142] - Quote
I've never said "nobody ever mines in GSF", that was FastJack. Search my posts if you like, what I've said is that there's no organized alliance-level mining, especially not of ice. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 19:25:00 -
[143] - Quote
To maintain level 5 industry you have to mine 12,000,000 m3 PER DAY
Now, thats a crapload of orcas filled every day, right ?
And you a trying to bullshit saying it is not organized, yeah, sure. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 19:46:00 -
[144] - Quote
12m m3 to reach it, 6m m3 to maintain it, it seems. I was surprised there was a level 5 index myself, since everyone I ask say level 4 is the maximum level that's sensible to maintain. So I went in and checked the system myself, there were 2 people in that system a while ago, and now the map is saying 0 average in space and 3 docked. vOv |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:09:00 -
[145] - Quote
And yet, they insist that I know nothing of goons.
I suppose this shows... neither do goons.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:58:00 -
[146] - Quote
Nope. What this shows is that there are apparently a group of people in goons who are dumb enough to spend time mining. Still doesn't change the fact that there are no alliance-level mining ops. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:51:00 -
[147] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:12m m3 to reach it, 6m m3 to maintain it, it seems.
ISK 3.0 say: 24M to reach, 12M to maintain. Idk if it changed, couldn't find anything on evewiki. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 22:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
Well, that just makes whomever it is that's mining enough to get that system to level 5 are even dumber motherfuckers than initially thought. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 22:30:00 -
[149] - Quote
Just look at the iHub and you'll know what corp is responsible for this humilation.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 03:19:00 -
[150] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Well, that just makes whomever it is that's mining enough to get that system to level 5 are even dumber motherfuckers than initially thought.
What, you think they bought all those ships they give you?
Let me see if I got this straight: they charge you a premium, for ships they're building themselves, and making more isk off it then they would in high sec, while you loose the ships defending the ops, which in turn build you more ships at a premium. '
And you think they're the dumb motherfuckers?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
212
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 07:15:00 -
[151] - Quote
Yes, because I would certainly make my maelstroms in a station with just a reprocessing plant with no direct access to a system with a manufacturing plant, only to then move all of them either to VFK, y-2 or m2-.
Yes, I think they're the dumb motherfuckers. I also think you have absolutely no clue as to how **** works in 0.0. At least not our little piece of 0.0. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
IS HE REALLY AS DUMB AS HE POSTS?
This is so funny.... |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
218
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:24:00 -
[153] - Quote
You're going to have to be more specific than that, sunshine. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 14:53:00 -
[154] - Quote
You totally missed the point. Basically you're paying for the privilege of losing ships to defend ops that sell you ships at inflated prices. The fact that you apparently totally missed this point was what billngi was talking about.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
223
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 14:58:00 -
[155] - Quote
Oh dearie me, I have to pay someone a million or so over cost to buy, haul, fit, equip and setup contracts, all so I just have to travel to the staging system, search contracts and buy a single ship. Then, I have to pay an insurance fee, and when it's blown up, I get some money back. Then I tell the alliance I lost the ship, and I get more isk so I mostly break even, or at most lose a few million isk.
I'm literally crying into my bismuth tea here over how they dare take a small fee to make my life so much easier, and then pay me for it afterwards. Literally. |
Sub Prime
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:02:00 -
[156] - Quote
AFAIR the goon mining system is located in a deadend system in a TEST pocket - some buddies and myself got it down to level 3 by camping it with SB's but obviously they got it back up again. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:08:00 -
[157] - Quote
For some reason, PT Barnum just came to mind...
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
229
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:40:00 -
[158] - Quote
I was going to wait a while to see if a better explanation than a hint to the guy that popularized the phrase "there's a sucker born every minute", but I guess not.
So, since you think I'm a sucker, do tell how you think it is that I get my ships, and how you would solve the same task. |
Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 21:21:00 -
[159] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Party Lips wrote:twiddles fingers yess yesssss come to low sec. muhahahaha Mwhahaha-no, I don't like being forced to play one way or the other. CCP will not make me go anywhere in eve I don't want to go. I will unsub first... wait... I already have.
Buh-bye!
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
229
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 00:45:00 -
[160] - Quote
I guess not. vOv |
|
Bahr Cudas
Beta Ray Bill
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 06:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
I'm a High Sec PI operator. I don't mind the changes at all. In fact, I was feeling alittle guilty by the spoonfed ISK of the pre-Crucible PI setup.
Its basically just a cost-of-living increase across the board. Once the shock wears off pilots will return to it. The first half dozen exports are the hardest. Your wallet blinks and your butt clenches, but when you complete your high end products and sell them it all evens out in the end... |
Var Redin
SaberCorp Draconian Protection Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 02:41:00 -
[162] - Quote
My taxes go up 100%, CCP's bank account gets $15.00 lighter per month. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
279
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 12:40:00 -
[163] - Quote
And another one pretends to quit the game over an increase in costs which the market has already begun adjusting to.
vOv |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 23:39:00 -
[164] - Quote
Jita Buy orders 5 mins ago: Broadcast Node: 1,408,002.20 isk Integrity Response Drones: 1,420,000.08 isk Nano-Factory: 908,182.29 isk Organic Mortar Applicatiors: 700,004.52 isk Recursive Computing Module: 1,100,000.37 isk Self-Harmonizing Power Core: 1,400,001.52 isk Sterile Conduits: 1,003,181.49 isk Wetware Mainframe: 1,670,000.00 isk
I did many test on Sisi: With my 24/7 P4 factory planet setup, i have to spend 6.9M isk per hour, and i get 8.5M isk per hour selling my P4s. There is still more taxes(41.7M/day) than profit (32.4M/day). Of course, if done in low/null/wh, there is 0 taxes. So those who are doing PI in highsec can't compete with others.
-> CCP has to add NPC buy orders @ 1,350,000 isk to solve the problem
|
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 00:11:00 -
[165] - Quote
Var Redin wrote:My taxes go up 100%, CCP's bank account gets $15.00 lighter per month.
You won't be missed. |
Ewa Cromwell
Sparrows Boys
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 02:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
So I was working out the maths as I run a POS with alts and was wondering if it's worth it to put them back up.
As an example, Mechanical Parts, made of precious metals and reactive metals
to get 1 unit of precious metal off the planet is 50 isk in taxes likewise 1 unit of reactive metals off the planet is also 50 isk
material ratio for mech parts is 40:5, or reduced, 8:1
importing 8 units of each to the planet is is 200 isk each
exporting 1 unit of mech parts 900 isk
so... exporting P1 50 X 8 X 2 = 800 isk importing P1 25 X 8X 2 = 400 isk exporting P2 900 X 1 = 900 isk
total cost for 1 mech part is 2100 isk
2 large POS's consume 7200 mech parts per 30 days or 1,512,000 isk per month (at just the tax rate).
Having been drinking while doing the maths I'm not going to guarantee the results, so if I botched the math please feel free to correct it.
I can see how this would cripple a noob because it would be hard to keep that much liquid isk on hand. Off loading 3 Pi planets and 2 P2 planets and reloading the same 2 P2 planets cost me just shy of 10 mil isk. |
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 16:04:00 -
[167] - Quote
It's pretty bad. 17% of these values is too high. If it dropped down to 12% or 10% it'd be in a good place. |
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