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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
915
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:04:59 -
[1] - Quote
Title is king; Teams are not providing what was wanted from them. In a very rare course of action they are being removed for the health of Industry.
Head on over here to read Team Game of Drones' dev blog about it.
Give us your feedback and tell us what you think.
CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3013
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:11:40 -
[2] - Quote
Well, I never used them. For much of my industry, they would not have helped, so there was no reason to. For the rest, it seemed to be a high complexity task for a chance at a small gain, and not worth the effort. I could get more gain by spending that time mining another load of ore.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1668
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:13:48 -
[3] - Quote
Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union
185
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:17:28 -
[4] - Quote
Something that was discussed in the original thread regarding the removal that hasn't been addressed to my knowledge- Teams were being used to balance certain recent changes in Manufacturing and Invention:
- Teams are one of the only ways to get an ME reduction during a manufacturing build process
- The increased success change from the use of of Meta items used in the Invention process was balanced against Teams providing additional success. This is on top of the original Invention changes having more complexity via different outcomes based on the success percentages, which was not implemented.
If Teams are being removed, will you be making any adjustment to the base stats in these kind of use cases?
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp CCP Engineering Alliance
404
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:22:23 -
[5] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already.
Mostly because a forum thread does not receive the same traffic that a blog post does, so we want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to see this.
Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
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iwannadig
Nagibators Inc.
1
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:24:20 -
[6] - Quote
I could refer to my old post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4645030 This system is too complex now and gives too little bonus to team bidder. When I want to produce something I gather resources by myself and I can predict when I gather all I need and start job immediately. But teams is non-controllable resource mainly because of bidding system which does not allow to control when the team will be available. To get rid of this ballast players simply don't use them as they break (slow down) production chain. |
Arkarn
DeathByDestruction
1
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:27:45 -
[7] - Quote
I used teams as much as I possibly could. The minor increase in batch costs was nothing compared to the hundreds of millions saved with 2.5% ME on materials that can cost tens of billions.
The only thing that stopped me from using them as much as possible was the awful bidding system. Most of the teams were either ending in the wrong timezone or would get sniped at the very last second. If those two issues were sorted I bet you'd see a much larger uptake with teams. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:28:32 -
[8] - Quote
Since mostly large scale supercapital/capital builders are concerned I would like to thank CCP for making my bros and me supers supercheap for a few months and harder for upcoming superpilots. #OldGuardeSupremacy
Follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Follow my blog: http://crossingzebras.com/author/forlorn-wongraven
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Vanessa Vansen
Perkone Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:32:52 -
[9] - Quote
-- begin irony Excellent move!
Did you know that me (and probably others as well) turned their back on manufacturing and co. due to the excellent ideas of teams?
And now you remove them again.
Well, done! -- end irony
Another nail in the coffin |
iwannadig
Nagibators Inc.
1
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:33:27 -
[10] - Quote
Arkarn wrote:I used teams as much as I possibly could. The minor increase in batch costs was nothing compared to the hundreds of millions saved with 2.5% ME on materials that can cost tens of billions.
The only thing that stopped me from using them as much as possible was the awful bidding system. Most of the teams were either ending in the wrong timezone or would get sniped at the very last second. If those two issues were sorted I bet you'd see a much larger uptake with teams. Right. Large scale industry jobs can benefit from team bonuses, but small can not. |
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PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
454
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:37:45 -
[11] - Quote
While you are at it, please go back to the more useful industrial interface. To be sure, the new interface is "cute", but not concise. |
Cloon McCloon
Space Fukery
8
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:42:54 -
[12] - Quote
Why remove them before you have a better option in mind? Not many people used them, so what? They aren't hurting anything, why not leave them there until a better option is in the works?
Since ME-5 is as good as it gets with invention now, that extra ME bonus from teams is the only thing that made certain manufacturing profitable, taking them away now does nothing positive for manufacturers.
I agree the bidding system sucks, but there was always the option of just moving to manufacture stuff where another team is already available, which I thought was one of the points of teams.
I just don't see the harm in just leaving them in. |
drummendejef maaktnietuit
Active Fusion
14
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:43:51 -
[13] - Quote
I do some manufacturing but never had the feeling I should use teams, they seemed expensive for what they would do, and would make EVE more "spreadsheet online" for me.
I don't think it's a bad thing that they leave.
When I heard about them I thought "teams, cool, now we can manufacture together with other players", and then we got dissapointed :(
So, idea from me: "It's an MMO, make 'Teams' something with other players, like building stuff together" |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux
403
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:44:24 -
[14] - Quote
Teams are missing the risk v reward. I would have much prefered teams to be lowsec/null sec and only work for pos's. This would provide another pillar for player interaction to happen. |
David Beta
The Mission Guys
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:51:26 -
[15] - Quote
I know that I for one used them extensively on large scale or large volume production projects, and found them to be quite useful.
If they're not providing benefit for certain types of jobs, or provide that benefit at a prohibitive cost, why not simply let economics sort the problem out? People will use teams on jobs and in situations that merit them, and avoid them where the benefit is not present.
If there's very low utilization, then obviously most industry is continuing in the absence of teams, so they don't represent a mandatory increase in complexity, merely one that is applicable in certain situations.
I'm really just failing to see how this is damaging to the economy as a whole. Why not just leave them in for those who use them as an extra marginal benefit to chase? For those engaged in activities that don't really benefit from teams, it's a non-issue, and those who are, it's just one more element of competition and cost-benefit to factor in. |
Noriko Mai
1689
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:55:54 -
[16] - Quote
Please bring back Dark Opaque Theme! |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
238
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:56:03 -
[17] - Quote
Teams are a rarely used feature which was actually interesting and had positive consequences for everyone, so you decide to remove it?
This makes no sense whatsoever. |
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
68
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:58:37 -
[18] - Quote
A good decision, in my opinion.
It's nice to see, you are not to proud or undiscerning, to question "features" you implemented in the past.
Now, please, get rid of the system cost index as well, because, with your words, "in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity" and it is "not positively impacting the overall gameplay experience in EVE."
Thanks CCP and keep it up!
Regards,
Damjan |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5622
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:58:52 -
[19] - Quote
tl;dr: Teams were barely used, too complex, and it will be harder to yank and replace them farther down the road, so we're pulling the plug now.
Kudos on the frankness and boldness in admitting the idea didn't work out as planned. I don't think you've communicated very clearly why you had to pull the plug rather than leaving the feature in there though.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Alexander McKeon
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
72
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:59:56 -
[20] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:If Teams are being removed, will you be making any adjustment to the base stats in these kind of use cases? Very much this; the industry changes were balanced upon the the premise that later-to-be-implemented teams would bring them to the desired point of balance. Now that teams are being removed from the equation, a look at invention success chance would be appropriate, along with some consideration of T2 ship build costs: these saw a significant increase with Crius, with ship costs balanced around 150% of the old ME 0 build requirements and reductions applied from there, rather than the 110% available with a Process decryptor. Teams have been helpful in mitigating the price increase associated with that rebalance, and the decision to remove them should include a way to prevent unintended economic changes.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1239
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:10:11 -
[21] - Quote
Still pretty disappointed about the removal of teams (not the least of the factors behind this disappointment being that I had a killer webdev project regarding teams that I had to mothball,) but I understand.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Neville Smit
Metro Trucking and Trade Ad-Astra
45
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:11:15 -
[22] - Quote
I wish that Teams were being preserved. I agree they need work, but they aren't really broken, per se, in their current state - they are simply not used very much. I make some specific suggestions for improvement in my blog post, here: http://nevillesmit.com/blog/2014/12/7/taking-one-for-the-team
I am an unapologetic fan of EVE Online. My blog: http://nevillesmit.com/ - My Twitter: https://twitter.com/NevilleSmit
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Milton Middleson
Scrap Metal Squadron
557
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:17:45 -
[23] - Quote
If teams had been a destroyable system upgrade/deployable where you could pick and choose to some extent instead of dependent on an awkward auction system with an erratic supply, they might've been a bit more popular and interesting.
Props for doing this now, though, rather than waiting until a bad feature got entrenched.
Damjan Fox wrote:A good decision, in my opinion.
It's nice to see, you are not to proud or undiscerning, to question "features" you implemented in the past.
Now, please, get rid of the system cost index as well, because, with your words, "in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity" and it is "not positively impacting the overall gameplay experience in EVE."
So 95% of everything would be built in Jita/Amarr/Rens/Dodixie? |
EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
7
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:18:21 -
[24] - Quote
Removing them is still a terrible idea and I see no reason why they couldn't just be left alone until a better system was thought of. The other feedback thread had a few pages of similar replies; another thread like this isn't needed.
Eve Manufacture Tool - making industry easy
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Rictor Thellere
Rictor Thellere Private Trade Corporation
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:20:25 -
[25] - Quote
Can't say I'll miss them TBH, never made much use of them...
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Dark Drifter
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
141
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:28:49 -
[26] - Quote
is there possability of seeing them back in some other formant on the cards?
would not mind having a PI related structure that produces teams for used in R&D make them a tier 5 PI product!
gives PI some more use and still retains the team functionality make them one team per station/POS though
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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
149
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:33:48 -
[27] - Quote
Teams were an interesting idea, but they just weren't worth the effort and risk.
The consideration of Teams interested me, but the auction mechanic meant I was unlikely to ever be able to utilize them. I had put in a few bids on them, but the auctions (on most, if not all teams, not just the ones I bid on) all ended during times that I was unable to be online. No sense in wasting effort on something when last-minute-bids are the only real way to achieve it.
While the option to move to a system with a number of teams was indeed present, many teams would be either in nulsec, or they would be in a system whose industry index was so high that it negated a lot of the savings of the Team. Combined with the need to move everything to the new system, putting several billion to several tens-of-billions of ISK-value assets at risk in the move, and Teams just weren't worth the effort.
Moving to a quiet system and putting up a tower was not only more reliable in terms of long-term savings, but it allowed you to actually be able to set up long-term plans without having to potentially move your entire base of operations just because a set of Teams was lost / moved while a middle step was still being completed. As well, managing ISK, risk, and assets was simply easier by not moving.
While multiple industrialists could have banded together to try for a team, you run right back into the issue of the industry index. You might get a team that saves you 5% on materials cost, but with more industrialists in the same system, your industry index is going to be higher. On many items, the real savings may end up being closer to 1-2% after you factor in all of the other increased industry index costs that the Team is not affecting. Of course, that is only so long as you have that team. Just as soon as your system is unable to win that team, you'll be losing on that item due to the industry index.
I can absolutely see the value in teams for the production of larger things (battleships and capitals, for example), but smaller things? Rigs and many (most?) mods seemed to me to have better (and more stable) savings available to moving to a backwater system with a low industry index.
Anyway, that's why I never got into Teams.
-áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
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Kym Sorenson
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
22
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:37:23 -
[28] - Quote
Teams were great for those of us smart enough to use them. Every indy player in my alliance used them. Screw you, CCP. |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:41:08 -
[29] - Quote
I suspect teams are really being removed because some people have become too efficient in cornering the very good ones, and as a result, also cornering some high end (low volume, high margin or high volume, decent margin) markets, such as JF, marauders, freighters etc.
I don't doubt that the use of teams overall is in the single digits, percentage-wise, and you know that's because most of the teams are not worth the trouble investing in. But that also tells you that a lot of teams are useful..
This move is like throwing away the baby with the entire pool, where all you had to do was maybe get a bath for it.
Not having teams will democratize the markets a bit more, so I don't entirely dislike it. But it reduces some of the complexity in industry and this game has been dumbed down enough already... |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
179
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:43:29 -
[30] - Quote
This is a good move on the part of CCP. If you will go back and read the various comment threads I had recommended repeatedly that the team idea not be implemented at all because it was just needless complexity. It became even more apparent to me once the feature was live.
Now, if you want to pull the rabbit out of the hat, make it so that players can somehow work with other players to get similar results to teams. That is, a decrease in production time or a slight decrease in materials required. The idea of Eve lately is to increase player interaction and you guys have implemented some good ideas. Figure out a way where an alliance of industrial players gets an advantage by working together and you will have another great feature on your hands. |
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