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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
123
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Posted - 2014.12.17 20:12:50 -
[61] - Quote
so in other words.. you knew he screwed up.. we complained about that at the very start of the implementation how much of a drastic change he did.. and now you see your numbers are what we were saying this entire time.. to add to it he even screwed up invention with a promise that teams would be added..
you basically are just admitting your faults and a Crius II is going to occur sometime in 2015.
and seriously you DO need to fix it you caused an epic level of pain for industry all together. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
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Posted - 2014.12.17 20:28:22 -
[62] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:ANYONE WHO SAYS TEAMS AREN'T WORTH THE PRICE YOU PAY
YOU DON'T BUILD ENOUGH
TEAMS SCALE, THE MORE YOU BUILD, THE MORE YOU SAVE AND THE MORE YOU CAN PAY FOR A TEAM AND STILL SAVE
YES, I MEANT TO BE ALL CAPS!!!!!
I am agreeing with someone from PL, damn what has EVE come to |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1054
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 20:29:33 -
[63] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already.
ignored ones it seems .. there were far too many good cases of teams being used and liked apparently, so they start another one assuming those people wont put the effort in too repeat themselves so they can remove it without so much resistance ... its one way to avoid negative feedback i suppose
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
123
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Posted - 2014.12.17 20:35:53 -
[64] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Aryth wrote:Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already. ignored ones it seems .. there were far too many good cases of teams being used and liked apparently, so they start another one assuming those people wont put the effort in too repeat themselves so they can remove it without so much resistance ... its one way to avoid negative feedback i suppose
its been well stated and known due to a guy that's no longer with ccp.. stated he stops reading a thread after so many pages.. they take their feedback in with a short attention span.. now once again they must look at industry altogether again after so many have repeated and stated its broken due to the work HE did..
talk about denial syndrome.. it nearly takes an act of congress for them to take in feedback.. like summon a threadnaught level or something.
my thing is.. many folks said this feature would not be used, that this feature is very broken, that his "vision" was delusional.. but look where we are now.. right back at the drawing board. now everyone is going to suffer from a broken cost index and even more.. now their researched bpo's and all the TE and ME is going right back to where it begins..
oh man this is going to take some dedicated work to sort out and fix..which they even stated they don't have time for. epic.. break a game mechanic, then add a mechanic that breaks it further, then says welp! its going to take longer to fix/replace it..
do they ever have plan b's?? back up plans?? one must ask this. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
15
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Posted - 2014.12.17 20:49:42 -
[65] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:my thing is.. many folks said this feature would not be used, that this feature is very broken, that his "vision" was delusional.. but look where we are now.. right back at the drawing board. now everyone is going to suffer from a broken cost index and even more.. now their researched bpo's and all the TE and ME is going right back to where it begins.. You seem to be delusional; I remember the thread when teams were announced, and I can't remember everyone saying that.
Industry has MASSIVELY improved since Crius. Apart from a few small issues, the overwhelming effect of the changes has been positive. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
123
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 21:08:44 -
[66] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:my thing is.. many folks said this feature would not be used, that this feature is very broken, that his "vision" was delusional.. but look where we are now.. right back at the drawing board. now everyone is going to suffer from a broken cost index and even more.. now their researched bpo's and all the TE and ME is going right back to where it begins.. You seem to be delusional; I remember the thread when teams were announced, and I can't remember everyone saying that. Industry has MASSIVELY improved since Crius. Apart from a few small issues, the overwhelming effect of the changes has been positive.
son you're just angry you will no longer be able to snipe bids at the last minute. no one asked for this feature it was part of his "vision".. we knew it was going to fail but no..they allowed him to make the change and now look here.. accept the facts
it failed! as many stated it would. |
Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Fatal Ascension
134
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:04:53 -
[67] - Quote
Where I'm coming from vs where MOST are coming from I've been doing industry in EVE for just shy of 9 years now, the teams system was interesting for someone like me because I run 20 characters doing industry, not mining, but building, researching and invention. A team could make a system excellent with reduced costs. However since I don't play all day, time factor savings almost never mattered to me. The majority of players run 1 to 4 indy characters, a team wouldn't do much for them unless it was a ME team and even then the interface to use the team wasn't easy to understand.
Why was it hard for the average player to understand Teams were billed as 'being able to effect an attribute of industry' however each team came with 4 different specializations, when asking most players about it in the various channels, most didn't understand that aspect. I think that level of confusion hurt the teams, and drove down their usage.
Manufacturing vrs research teams Personally I looked all over, and I never even saw the option to use teams in research, I mostly invent, but I looked at the ME and TE tabs and never saw a blank slot to put a team into when I started those jobs. I'll bet many other players did that as well, and if players don't see it easily and have to hunt for it, especially when doing dozens of jobs per day, they usually forget about it.
Player migration for teams and bonuses Hands down, almost no player that is serious in industry will do this. I have just shy of 400,000 bpo's and bpcs sitting in a single station in empire, could I move it with my swarm, possibly but it's a giant pain. Even smaller players are going to have 5+ freighters full and once you add the costs of the tools we use in industry (Datacores, tech 2 components, BPO's, etc) those freighters quickly become worth 10b+ each trip. With current mechanics of freighters, and CCP's refusal to give us the ability to move large amounts of cargo easily without being either EASILY gankable or well armored but no capacity, why would anyone want to risk billions to save a few hundred mill?
Cha-cha-CHANGES!!! The changes you are trying to make are good, they really are, the interface change helped a person like me a great deal. Being able to 'repeat' a job is something that is MAJOR for me. As I usually put a character on each build job with 10 of the same BPO to keep things 'easy' for myself. But the problem you have to remember isn't just costs and time, we don't have the tools to move a massive operation on a dime, it's akin to trying to turn a super tanker going full speed in the ocean. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with ganking freighters, I take the steps so I won't be ganked. But one of those steps is staying put and not putting hundreds of billions at risk when it only takes af hundred mill to pop any freighter these days.
We need better tools! Not just systems! This isn't a knock against CCP, it's just that very few changes, if ever have happened to industry up until recently. We could use tons more to make our jobs easier and more fun. (PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY LET ME QUEUE UP INDUSTRY JOBS UP TO 24 hours or 3 days PER CHARACTER PLZ) *ahem* Without being able to move our operations easily and safely, the end result is what you got, most simply won't move. We could use more ways to do the same things and that might make it easier. BPC's are the first step in this, don't want to risk your bpo's, use bpcs. Fine np, but what else can I do? What other types of risk reducing factors can the average player use that doesn't take 10+ characters to take advantage of.
Possible suggestions for CCP guys that *might* read this What about empire 'Free trade zones'- maybe every month a constellation is picked at random from each empire, these constellations lower all taxes and fees to say .1%, if the next zone is picked when the new one spawns, players could plan out 30 days ahead of time to move items, prepare, etc etc. and the benefits are well known in advance.
NPC station/system degrading upgrades It's like teams, only it the players can build it onto the station and get almost any benefit they want, the upgrade degrades so it has to be renewed. It can be repaired wtih isk or industrial goods. You get the same exact effect of teams in all systems, all players in system have access to it just like teams and it's also an isk sink.
Contract work between players Let players create jobs like contracts for others to work on, think of an industry job ready to go, but it needs another player to come by and click 'create' with the right skills as well as tying up their character instead of mine. I'd pay good isk for that, something I think could open new opportunities for players.
Anyway, this is getting way off topic, I just hope that a little of what i've said will make someone at CCP say 'hrmm, that's a new way of looking at that'. I could write a book about all of this kinda stuff after years of industry in EVE, but I'd only want to if I know it'd do some good or someone in power would actually read it. So for now, I'll leave these little suggestions in my posts and hope for the best.
Thanks for this great game, and for giving some love to industry, it's not perfect but we can see you're trying and trying HARD. Thanks for that! |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
543
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:04:56 -
[68] - Quote
Kudos for a wise decision.
Features which are broken and/or don't work completely as intended should be backed out of the game, until such time as they can be fixed or redesigned accordingly. The new release cycle encourages introducing features only when they are ready and fully tested, as compared to the old release cycle which encouraged rushing ill-considered or badly designed/implemented features into the game and then spending years trying to fix them without breaking everything else (Titans?).
Reading through the other posts in this thread, it is pretty obvious that even the supporters of the Teams feature acknowledge that it is broken in many ways. However, they probably don't fully realize just how much work is required to fix those "minor" problems. And that CCP has a fixed amount of resources to dedicate to either fixing existing features OR apply to developing new features.
Perhaps a better way to present the problem to the players would be to ask: Would the players prefer to have CCP work on fixing Teams now, OR have CCP continue to work on new features such as the T3 dessies and Thera?
I think that most players will choose the latter.
Now, can we get that annoying fade in, fade out, fade in, fade out eye-fatigue nonsense on the UI window backgrounds also removed from the game? |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
247
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:26:14 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Title is king; Teams are not providing what was wanted from them. In a very rare course of action they are being removed for the health of Industry. Head on over here to read Team Game of Drones' dev blog about it. Give us your feedback and tell us what you think.
Glad to see them gone. We the player community told you it was a crap idea before their introduction.
Teams from the outset were a bad idea that should never have seen the light of day. Also many us thought that somehow we'd be able to form capsular teams for an advantage but that clearly wasn't the case.
Good decision though. Now bring back Incarna.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1669
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:51:39 -
[70] - Quote
I will list out some extra stuff I didn't say in the last thread.
I used teams, quite a bit. I used them personally, I used them as targeting mechanisms, and more.
They do have major flaws such as sniping and the fact that only ME means anything substantial. They also allow for some rather funny mechanics such as sniping the winners index. think on this one a minute. I don't want to completely give it away in the event teams remain.
This kind of gameplay isn't seen by CCP. So I understand the value of it might be minimized or unrecognized.
I would rather see them stay, but I understand if they gotta go.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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ChataJohn
Eve Refinery
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 23:20:50 -
[71] - Quote
When you decided to do it - it was a F***ed up idea. You never seem to listen to the players in Industry and Mining much. As a result, industry is still BROKEN because of what you did - just removing the TEAM morons isn't gonna fix the broken. |
Nalha Saldana
Shattered Void Spaceship Samurai
869
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 23:43:06 -
[72] - Quote
I wanted them but never managed to win a bid |
mufasa73
Super Luminous Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 00:32:02 -
[73] - Quote
How about adding a bonus to ME per level of Advanced Industry to compensate for no Teams now? |
Celly S
Concord Attraction Services The Ditanian Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 00:38:08 -
[74] - Quote
Qual wrote:PsychoBitch wrote:While you are at it, please go back to the more useful industrial interface. To be sure, the new interface is "cute", but not concise. Sorry for the strong language, but WTF are you on about? The new interface is a HUGE improvement!
The UI is very nice, in fact I like it much better than the old one.
o/ Celly Smunt
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal.
Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular.
Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself.
A sandwich can be a great motivator.
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Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 00:52:56 -
[75] - Quote
Now get rid of the outlandish new fees charged for researching blueprints. Two egregious examples, it takes almost 20 million ISK to research some blueprints from lvl 9 to lvl 10 or from lvl 1 to lvl 10 in one go, lol. There are others.... |
Celly S
Concord Attraction Services The Ditanian Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 00:53:38 -
[76] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Seems a waste of development time to remove the feature completely. As you say, teams are a good idea, and even in their current slightly unpolished state they were not doing any harm.
Will be a shame to see an interesting aspect of industry being removed in my opinion.
I agree in part with that, but, team are also being exploited for intel, and that is not what their intent was either.
i won't say anything more on it, but i can promise you that it is happening and will continue to happen as long as there are teams out there
o/ Celly
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal.
Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular.
Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself.
A sandwich can be a great motivator.
|
Sing Khai
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 01:02:07 -
[77] - Quote
I dont understand why teams have to go, unless they are a drag on the efficiency of the servers. But you have not said that.
Bidding was terrible, but hunting for a systems with bonus's was fun. It made indy playable. You'd have a central HQ, find the bonused system you were looking for and fly there, anchor a POS and start researching, building, whatever. You are removing the only playable part of Indy and replacing it with nothing.
Industry needs more love. It needs to be a playable career because not everyone wants to shoot stuff. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1054
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 01:13:06 -
[78] - Quote
Sing Khai wrote:I dont understand why teams have to go, unless they are a drag on the efficiency of the servers. But you have not said that.
Bidding was terrible, but hunting for a systems with bonus's was fun. It made indy playable. You'd have a central HQ, find the bonused system you were looking for and fly there, anchor a POS and start researching, building, whatever. You are removing the only playable part of Indy and replacing it with nothing.
Industry needs more love. It needs to be a playable career because not everyone wants to shoot stuff.
until they can either replace it or improve it they should leave it be,, there are many broken things in eve yet they remain still.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Cptcarter
Overload. Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 01:21:22 -
[79] - Quote
Teams should be made as a skill type for everyone to train and use in every industrial are research station. skill would range from #% to #% for each type.
research team skill industry team skill
Are you could make industry teams units that could be hauled in ships to your work station and add to which ever job you like. These units could either spawn randomly from Manufacturing, researching, copying, and invention. Depending on what you are building are researching would result in which team could spawn to be added to future jobs.
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
424
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 01:45:24 -
[80] - Quote
Good riddance. "Wrong type of complexity" is the perfect term to describe teams. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
217
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 02:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
In the past I had industry jobs going almost all the time. Everything from ammo to tech 2 capitals. I've invented I've built, I've done pretty much everything except Tech 3 I never got into that.
Ever since you guys changed everything I've essentially not touched industry. Fitting right in with your current trend the industry UI is prettier and less functional. I recently purchased a Bowhead BPO and started researching it thinking I'd build some but as I'm going through the motions trying to ramp up capitol ship production again I'm just at the point where I'm ready to give up and sell the BPO.
I'm not sure if it's sour grapes or if the UI really is that bad. I don't know if I have a common perspective or a unique one. AlI that I can say is that I've not even seen the team UI and in the past I invented and built from moon goo my own Jump Freighter as well as Rorquals and Carriers for sale. Since the changes pretty much nothing. I haven't even barely purchased much from the market and I don't think I've sold anything and I can't even tell you why.
All that I can say is that I used to like industry and now I have two accounts that I basically don't put time on, those would me my two industry toons.
I wish that I had better advice all that I can say is I don't even know what teams really did, I won't miss them and it does not surprise me that no one used them. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4120
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 03:10:27 -
[82] - Quote
I will miss teams.
Mainly because the team interface gave a good deal of intel as to which systems had big production job batches happening in them, letting you know which POSes might be worth ransoming.
On the plus side - less teams = less production throughput gamewide, which in a game economy with a massive overproduction crisis is a good thing.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers
94
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 04:21:53 -
[83] - Quote
There are industry teams? |
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
369
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 04:55:47 -
[84] - Quote
Banlish wrote:Contract work between players Let players create jobs like contracts for others to work on, think of an industry job ready to go, but it needs another player to come by and click 'create' with the right skills as well as tying up their character instead of mine. I'd pay good isk for that, something I think could open new opportunities for players. This actually sounds pretty cool, similar to Courier Contracts for Haulers, Manufacturing/Research Contracts for Industrialists, So the Contractor puts in BPO/BPCs, and the items required for it, sets times to accept and complete(May have to set a minimum time for completion above the production time to avoid scams), a Reward and a Collateral, Then Contractee gets a Plastic Wrapped package that can be installed like any other manufacturing/research job, once it is done they deliver the job and complete the contract.
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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio
249
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 05:02:46 -
[85] - Quote
I never looked at teams when they first came out, I was not doing much industry. After that I was doing quite a bit of industry, but had forgotten all about teams. When you announced the removal of teams I took another look at them and then realized what I was missing out on, in savings or time and now using them till they are gone.
I think the problem about teams was initially was the roll out and perhaps what they did or how they functioned was not explained well enough, or just bad timing on my part for not paying attention at the time.
Cost may appear high to a part time industrialist for the good teams, but you could pick up the lesser teams dirt cheap and still do very well using them. Production on a large scale and the better teams are worth the price depending on what you are doing.
I am sad to see the teams go, but realize that with so many CCP employees moving on to greener pastures time and effort to improve this feature has no choice but to go to the back burner so more important features can be improved or developed.
I look forward to the time when teams are brought back when the attention of a ccp dev team can be devoted to fine tuning the feature.
Senex Legio
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
369
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 05:16:17 -
[86] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:ANYONE WHO SAYS TEAMS AREN'T WORTH THE PRICE YOU PAY
YOU DON'T BUILD ENOUGH
TEAMS SCALE, THE MORE YOU BUILD, THE MORE YOU SAVE AND THE MORE YOU CAN PAY FOR A TEAM AND STILL SAVE This is probably why the teams usage is in single digit percentages.
The majority of jobs are most likely people manufacturing for themselves/corp and not major producers like yourself.
I'd be interested to see who is using teams and who isn't, and how many jobs they put through a month on average, and how many of the same job they are doing.
I do agree with a number of people in this thread that teams weren't used allot because of the issues actually obtaining a team to use in the first place, I'm looking at you Auction Sniping. But I also found that there were a few people that didn't even know how to bid on a team because they hadn't noticed/didn't know what the "Team Chartering" link at the bottom of the Teams tab, and thus only used teams that were already available in their system.
The other side was that the only useful teams were the Manufacturing ME teams. The research teams were only useful if you were researching the last couple of levels on a BPO where it reduced the time by a day or more, because frankly unless a team reduced the research by that much it wasn't any benefit because of how often/long people play. |
Sara Seraph
FaintHeart Industries
19
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 05:26:28 -
[87] - Quote
My biggest problems with teams?
I would forget to use them.
So, I forget to bid on them, or if I did , I would forget to check if I won or lost till the notification arrived. Which by that time, I generally already began the job.
If a fellow manufacturer in the same system had won a team, I forget to even look for a team, until after I hit the "start" button.
The most I looked at teams, was when the lines were in full production, and I would dream of what I would be doing next, and how a team would assist my endeavors.
Lastly; I would not move to the next constellation to do manufacturing, since I already have locations and routines established. Call it lazy or whatever... it just isn't happening, except under very specific situation(s).
The first part is totally my fault and I have no clue why, but the location part... I have my standings in NPC stations, I have my suppliers and I have the local market, and clients already established.
In spite of the above, I really like the idea of teams and the potential for adding this feature to PI, POS, and whatever else helps us interact with the NPC environments of New Eden. |
Fifth Blade
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 07:01:57 -
[88] - Quote
While the implementation of teams was bad they did counter some of the flaws in the rest of the changes if taken in isolation eg: - No relevant penalty for building small items - even with an index of 9.8, - No reason to progress to higher tech production anymore - greater investment for lower profit
The removal of any barrier to entry (skills and slots) - killed almost all profit for t2/t3 without the use of teams (especially for large producers, T2 specifically loses twice, on component and hull teams).
Now with the removal of teams they are now unravelling the remaining industry changes in the expansion. I have no idea how CCP plan to fix this without expending the time they claim not to have.
We shall see, I suppose.
At a minimum the skill requirement for producing higher tech level ships should have remained. It makes sense for both practical (rate limiting) and lore (higher technology requires greater knowledge) reasons. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
123
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 07:41:02 -
[89] - Quote
Fifth Blade wrote:While the implementation of teams was bad they did counter some of the flaws in the rest of the changes if taken in isolation eg: - No relevant penalty for building small items - even with an index of 9.8, - No reason to progress to higher tech production anymore - greater investment for lower profit
The removal of any barrier to entry (skills and slots) - killed almost all profit for t2/t3 without the use of teams (especially for large producers, T2 specifically loses twice, on component and hull teams).
Now with the removal of teams they are now unravelling the remaining industry changes in the expansion. I have no idea how CCP plan to fix this without expending the time they claim not to have.
We shall see, I suppose.
At a minimum the skill requirement for producing higher tech level ships should have remained. It makes sense for both practical (rate limiting) and lore (higher technology requires greater knowledge) reasons.
its now the catch phrase excuse now used ... to fix this will now take much time and or major "resources" to resolve..
HE and They say the same thing about the rorqual.. just notice their pattern its all there.
I fully agree with your comment on the ridiculous thought process they put into skill requirements for higher tech.. but again.. that was HIS vision.. his Vision was so out there he couldn't even see his own vision cause now he's gone from ccp... I think he needed new glasses. |
Miranda Katarn
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 07:59:08 -
[90] - Quote
Thank god
Useless feature was useless. |
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