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Zephris
Hattori Clan
7
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Posted - 2014.12.18 02:09:43 -
[1] - Quote
We all know that big ships can't hit small ones reliably due to tracking and explosion radius But small ships do full damage to larger ships, and often significant amount due to the speed at which small weapons fire. It is logical to introduce a stat that works the other way: that effect larger ships less than smaller ships, and this is the defense rating.
A ship's defense rating reduce each separate attack by a fixed amount after resists, to a minimum of zero. Larger ships have higher defense rating, it can also be increased with modules. I am intentionally not specifying how much defense rating each ship should have, because it should be determined by testing.
Let say, for example, and only for example that a battleship has 50 defense rating and 60% resist across the board. a fully Bonuses light neutron blaster does 136 raw damage, and 54.4 damage after resist. This would be reduce to 4.4 by defense rating. Because each separate weapon is considered a different attack, each volley from a catalyst would inflict 35.2 damage and each cat would do about 18 DPS to the battleship, down from 225 without def rating. (yes it's an extreme example for illustration purposes)
Now let's consider a hyperion's Neutron blaster cannons. each does 550 raw damage and 220 after resist. Defense rating reduce that value to 170. 6 cannons does 1020 damage per volley, or 275 DPS. (down from 277)
Making larger ships differentially more resistant to small weapons have obvious implications in ganking, as larger hulls are more expensive. However the primary concern is if it can bring about a positive change in tactics.
It obviously makes any forms of zerg less effective. With the extreme case of a single battleship tanking an infinite number of frigates forever, this is why i intentionally did not specify defensive values. However, this does not make small ships useless: a ship does not need to inflict damage to be a threat. even impossibly high defense rating does not prevent a single ECM frigate from CCing a marauder forever.
This would make a more segmented battlefield where each ship class engage ships of similar sizes. I am honestly not sure if this is a good thing, but I believe CCP can make a sound judgement. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
460
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Posted - 2014.12.18 02:14:43 -
[2] - Quote
Zephris wrote:It is logical to introduce a stat that works the other way No. No it is not. |
Areen Sassel
40
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Posted - 2014.12.18 02:17:24 -
[3] - Quote
Translation of OP: please nerf gankalysts, because having to get a bunch of people together isn't enough.
Let's not, and say we did. :-) |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6814
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Posted - 2014.12.18 03:32:54 -
[4] - Quote
Zephris wrote:This would make a more segmented battlefield where each ship class engage ships of similar sizes. Why?
Bigger ships already have many options for dealing with smaller ships. Use them. After all... would YOU engage 20 battleships in 20 frigates? I wouldn't. It would be suicidal to do so.
On second though... no, I would engage 20 battleships with 20 frigates at my back. We'd all die horribly of course... but it would be interesting to see how many battleships we could take down before that happens (probably 1... maybe 2). And I fail to see a problem with that.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
813
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Posted - 2014.12.18 05:25:46 -
[5] - Quote
Zephris wrote:We all know that big ships can't hit small ones reliably due to tracking and explosion radius But small ships do full damage to larger ships, and often significant amount due to the speed at which small weapons fire. It is logical to introduce a stat that works the other way: that effect larger ships less than smaller ships, and this is the defense rating.
A ship's defense rating reduce each separate attack by a fixed amount after resists, to a minimum of zero. Larger ships have higher defense rating, it can also be increased with modules. I am intentionally not specifying how much defense rating each ship should have, because it should be determined by testing.
Let say, for example, and only for example that a battleship has 50 defense rating and 60% resist across the board. a fully Bonuses light neutron blaster does 136 raw damage, and 54.4 damage after resist. This would be reduce to 4.4 by defense rating. Because each separate weapon is considered a different attack, each volley from a catalyst would inflict 35.2 damage and each cat would do about 18 DPS to the battleship, down from 225 without def rating. (yes it's an extreme example for illustration purposes)
Now let's consider a hyperion's Neutron blaster cannons. each does 550 raw damage and 220 after resist. Defense rating reduce that value to 170. 6 cannons does 1020 damage per volley, or 275 DPS. (down from 277)
Making larger ships differentially more resistant to small weapons have obvious implications in ganking, as larger hulls are more expensive. However the primary concern is if it can bring about a positive change in tactics.
It obviously makes any forms of zerg less effective. With the extreme case of a single battleship tanking an infinite number of frigates forever, this is why i intentionally did not specify defensive values. However, this does not make small ships useless: a ship does not need to inflict damage to be a threat. even impossibly high defense rating does not prevent a single ECM frigate from CCing a marauder forever.
This would make a more segmented battlefield where each ship class engage ships of similar sizes. I am honestly not sure if this is a good thing, but I believe CCP can make a sound judgement.
No.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
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Abyss Azizora
Viziam Amarr Empire
121
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Posted - 2014.12.18 05:33:59 -
[6] - Quote
I like the idea actually, two birds with one stone, helps with the issue of absurdly cheap garbage ships being used to gank the insanely expensive ones. (I support the hell out of suicide ganking as a mechanic FYI, but the risk/profit ratio is broken as hell currently.)
This would also help with the semi-rare sight of larger hulls outside major nullsec fleet battles. (Seriously, when was the last time people roamed with battleships in lowsec?)
However you face many issues with balancing this, as this would impact a far-reaching number of activities beyond the obvious. Such as drones/fighters/bombers would suddenly be nerfed into oblivion given their size difference. Missions would be even easier to do in their current state. And you would suddenly have a shift from Eve's current "All frig/cruiser" roam compositions to mostly BC/Battleships compositions (If the changes were significant enough.)
Personally, I would just fix the really stupid system CCP currently has in place of making larger guns do less damage to smaller targets. If it hits, it should do full damage, small ships are supposed to evade hits, not somehow make them do less damage. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
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Posted - 2014.12.18 05:35:13 -
[7] - Quote
You just made my phoenix immortal to subcaps.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenshae Chiroptera
614
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Posted - 2014.12.18 05:42:56 -
[8] - Quote
Battleships are now really
- slow to align
- slow to warp
- slow at tracking
- big as barns
They have less effective tank than many cruisers and are so very slow to deploy. All they have going for them is damage.
If you could deploy a POS anywhere, people would probably use those rather than a battleship.
Get the tank of a battleship closer to that of a capital ship, is all you need.
CSM Ten movement for change.
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims.
Status: Rabid carebear
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14252
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Posted - 2014.12.18 05:48:55 -
[9] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Battleships are now really
- slow to align
- slow to warp
- slow at tracking
- big as barns
They have less effective tank than many cruisers and are so very slow to deploy. All they have going for them is damage. If you could deploy a POS anywhere, people would probably use those rather than a battleship. Get the tank of a battleship closer to that of a capital ship, is all you need.
Nope.
People just need to fly these ships before spouting myths such as you just did
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
809
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Posted - 2014.12.18 06:00:32 -
[10] - Quote
In a sense, there is such rating already, it's what scaling of hull HP and gun damage with its size does. You you don't need additional weirdness in how EVE works, you can just operate with those numbers. |
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Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
83
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Posted - 2014.12.18 11:34:14 -
[11] - Quote
Increasing their base HP sbould be enough. There is no need for some complicated mechanics |
Zephris
Hattori Clan
8
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:31:30 -
[12] - Quote
Drone/Fighters: Increase their damage to match guns of the same size, then decrease their ROF so they have the same DPS as they do correctly. Immortal Phoenixes: Phoenix are maybe the most underpowered ships in the entire game. It's fine if they are immortal, they will just become capital drakes. Increasing HP vs Defense ratings: The additional mechanic is NOT complicated, more importantly it gives CCP an OPTION. they could introduce the mechanic and set it to zero initially, and change it on ship to ship basis. HP mechanic doesn't give them that option. changing HP makes a ship more resistant against ALL targets, defense rating can be tuned to allow a ship to differentially resist smaller weapons. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3060
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Zephris wrote:This would make a more segmented battlefield where each ship class engage ships of similar sizes. Why?
Pretty simple question you're ignoring here, OP.
Why is this a good idea? How it it good for the game? |
Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Shadow of xXDEATHXx
407
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:50:51 -
[14] - Quote
Fun fact: it is intended that bigger is not better, and that small ships are meant to be able to take down larger ships.
Another fun fact: this already kind of exists in the form of a ****load more slots giving battleships the option of fitting higher resists, higher EHP and better EHP/s out of active tank fits. If you really want "DR", slap a few more resist modules on and stop coming up with bad ideas.
DR works in D&D because it's designed with it in mind.
DR is a terrible idea in EVE.
If you're having trouble with frigates swarming your ships of the line, maybe you should be with the battlegroup and not trying to derp off in a solopwnmobile that isn't a solopwnmobile. It's astounding how many frigates a properly fitted battleship can tank when it's with the fleet and has logistics with it. |
Areen Sassel
40
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Posted - 2014.12.19 00:14:25 -
[15] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Pretty simple question you're ignoring here, OP.
Why is this a good idea? How it it good for the game?
Because it nerfs gankalysts.
That's not my answer, but it is the OP's rationale. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
619
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Posted - 2014.12.19 00:39:14 -
[16] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nope. People just need to fly these ships before spouting myths such as you just did Somehow I missed all the battleship fleets that Goons have been fielding. Wait? You mean they aren't using them en masse? How can this be? They are the awesomest!!1!
Gosti Kahanid wrote:Increasing their base HP sbould be enough. There is no need for some complicated mechanics Spot on. +1
CSM Ten movement for change.
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6822
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Posted - 2014.12.19 00:42:09 -
[17] - Quote
Zephris wrote:Immortal Phoenixes: Phoenix are maybe the most underpowered ships in the entire game. It's fine if they are immortal, they will just become capital drakes. Nope. That's a myth.
2 webs + 2 target painters + some warfare links = most things vaporize in 1 to 3 hits.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
|
Zephris
Hattori Clan
8
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:37:03 -
[18] - Quote
How is this complex. the rationale is actually giving CCP another balancing option. Something like HP affect a ship in every situation, it's a hardly an effective tool for fine tuning. Bigger should not be better, but it's already the case. the meta is T3 and ishtars. The ideal situation is make all ships situational useful, and not have some them OP or UP under all conditions. And Phoenix: That untanked phoenix got vaporized shortly after by fighters, right ? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
283
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Posted - 2014.12.19 07:41:15 -
[19] - Quote
Zephris wrote:How is this complex. the rationale is actually giving CCP another balancing option. Something like HP affect a ship in every situation, it's a hardly an effective tool for fine tuning. Bigger should not be better, but it's already the case. the meta is T3 and ishtars. The ideal situation is make all ships situational useful, and not have some them OP or UP under all conditions. And Phoenix: That untanked phoenix got vaporized shortly after by fighters, right ?
small ships are meant to be able to take out big ones as part of balance and t3/ishtar are med sized not big so i don't see your point there. as well ishtar and t3 are currently a problem in themselves so that just makes the point mute.... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14262
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Posted - 2014.12.19 08:13:18 -
[20] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nope. People just need to fly these ships before spouting myths such as you just did Somehow I missed all the battleship fleets that Goons have been fielding. Wait? You mean they aren't using them en masse? How can this be? They are the awesomest!!1!
We killed test with the flight of a thousand megathrons.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14263
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Posted - 2014.12.19 08:20:37 -
[21] - Quote
Zephris wrote: And Phoenix: That untanked phoenix got vaporized shortly after by fighters, right ?
It wasn't untanked and it didn't die.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3066
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 09:08:27 -
[22] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nope. People just need to fly these ships before spouting myths such as you just did Somehow I missed all the battleship fleets that Goons have been fielding. Wait? You mean they aren't using them en masse? How can this be? They are the awesomest!!1! Gosti Kahanid wrote:Increasing their base HP sbould be enough. There is no need for some complicated mechanics Spot on. +1
We're using dominix fleets pretty much every day you know. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
620
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Posted - 2014.12.19 14:02:13 -
[23] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:We're using dominix fleets pretty much every day you know.
Faps, please.
Mega and Domi ... what others?
Zephris wrote:. changing HP makes a ship more resistant against ALL targets, . Exactly. I think battleships generally aren't tanky enough.
However, the design is rock paper scissors. You shouldn't fly a capital solo, you shouldn't fly a battleship solo. T3 cruisers ... well ... yeah
Frigates are killed by destroyers and cruisers (game would be better without destroyers, I feel) and cruisers are destroyed by battle cruisers and battleships. Battleships are destroyed by frigates and capitals. Capitals are destroyed by fleets of sub-caps and other capitals.
The little T1 tackle frigate is meant to be able to orbit in and pin down the battleship. Then the others pile in on it. My problem is that a few frigates can take out a batteship so fast that people can't even warp from a station to a gate to help you.
I am quite happy for them to do it but it should take awhile. If you go into hostile space alone and are caught that is what should happen.
CSM Ten movement for change.
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims.
Status: Rabid carebear
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