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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
10
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:06:31 -
[511] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:
D-scaninvis will hurt alot. FW plexes will be permacamped outside of the gate to farm easy kills, a Lach+Huginn will be easymode.
We need to gamble more. Gates are no longer enough. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
209
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:08:07 -
[512] - Quote
I hope they remove local next |
MuppetsSlayed
Great White North Productions Northern Associates.
18
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:10:23 -
[513] - Quote
U can see the type of player who is in favour of the Not on DSCan changes.
However for the other 95+% of us ...
Currently if your in a plex with a gate even an afk cloaky on local cant sneak up on u if you spam directional like a boss. Cause when they activate the gate they show on dscan.
This seems to be something that will make afk cloaking even more effective.
I fear these changes will make even more apects of eve unuseable. I can see there being a need for solo players running plexes to run a trial account with eyes on plex gates.
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DFA200
Hard vs Soft
10
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:10:40 -
[514] - Quote
Shaleb Heworo wrote:Saraki Ishikela wrote:You've essentially made the ultimate solo hunter. Not being detectable on D Scan? Sure it sounds awesome from the side of the hunter but creating a mechanic in which the player has no defense to or can't protect himself from isn't any fun for the victim. You're creating a scenario in which players will have no recourse to protect themselves no matter how skilled, or what fit. The advantage is purely in the hunters had being invisible on both D Scan and cloaked physically they can choose any engagement they want and their victims upon reflecting on their death cannot logically say what they could have done differently to change the outcome of that engagement with the exception of docking up any time anyone comes into system with them.
TLDR Game Mechanics should offer counterplay and reward players for smart choices and decision making. This ship stacks the deck in one side. Exactly! Since docking up really is the only defense you left them a lot of less fights will actually happen. While the other changes are really good d-scan immunity will turn out to be bad for pvp and bad for the game as a whole.
Agreed. Making things more one-sided in a game where people are generally risk averse, is not a good idea. |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
130
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:13:28 -
[515] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners WTF! I need to sober up for this thread. |
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
417
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:14:16 -
[516] - Quote
Can the arazu have some drone bonuses too please? because you know , gallente drones etc etc
CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails
.... Open that damn door !!
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Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
76
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:14:34 -
[517] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.
CCP plz... think about WH too! :/
I completely agree with this. If this change goes through I see major recon gangs roaming wh's now. And why wouldn't they? You can have an entire fleet now with extended webs, scrams, neuts, and boosted jams and be invisible to anyone not on grid with ZERO cloak lock delay.
I would be ok with this feature being implemented with the one exception being that combat recons are still visible while decloaked in wh's. Build it into the lore or something that wh's messed with the directional scan jammer signals or something you guys are creative. |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
26
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:19:31 -
[518] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Close the gap somewhat between Recons and T3 Cruisers, though this will also be a goal during the T3 Cruiser rebalance Thank Bob! its about time! |
Tex Raynor
Guardians of Asceticism
6
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:30:31 -
[519] - Quote
I'm curious though.. what ship(s) are people flying that a combat recon landing on grid means insta-death? Combat recons roaming wormholes? You are more likely to see a fleet of recons rage-rolling their static and thus new sig = stop, scan and assess the situation, like it already is. |
Alexis Nightwish
62
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:32:05 -
[520] - Quote
I'm on the fence with these changes. I feel they might be overshadowing HACs a bit, and I'm definitely opposed to buffing the defense of force recons that much as they can fit cov ops cloaks.
Perhaps bring the resistance profiles of the force recons up to what the combat recons are now, and up the combat recons up to HAC-level?
Also, special attention needs to be given to the Rook as it must split its mids between tank and ECM, its lows between damage and ECM, and its rigs between ECM and all the other things that compete for rig slots. The result is either go for ECM and fly the Falcon, or go for damage and fly a Cerberus, Drake, (insert ship that does missiles better).
Perhaps change the Falcon's bonus to ECM range instead of strength, and/or give a stronger missile/ECM bonus to the Rook?
Power Projection: A Brighter Future
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Marlona Sky
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
5734
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:33:03 -
[521] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:So, who wants to buy me a curse? Afk miners don't watch d-scan anyways.
The Paradox
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Shaleb Heworo
Viziam Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:33:12 -
[522] - Quote
I really don't understand the stealth aspect with combat(!) recons. These should not hide but actively seek combat. The hiding aspect of reconnassance is covered with force recons! Combat recons should get a probing and/or scan resolution bonus since that just fits the aggressive aspect of reconnaissance. Wouldn't that be a solution? Maybe not the most spectacular one but a solid one! |
Zanquis
The Northerners Northern Coalition.
1
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:33:43 -
[523] - Quote
I like the direction they are going in the OP, however I'm not sure if enough thought has be placed on the real role it will play. I like the unique bonus, but how will this play out?
I see the ROLE of this ship being an overt heavy ewar boat designed to withstand a small to medium engagement. I see them having a medium to close range focus with cruiser maneuverability, an above average tank, and slightly better damage then a T1 combat focused cruiser. This would place it at less damage then a hac, likely the same tank.
The purpose of this ship would be to brawl and deliver the Ewar at ranges close enough to put it at risk. This would make it well placed in faster nano gangs that hit you hard and fast. It would also give the game a ship that is more capable of delivering Ewar in combat and surviving. Picture them as the Vanguard.
IN all honesty in many cases the ships themselves are close to what they need to be. What is needed is a meaningful role bonus that will bring them into their own. The role bonus I suggest would help with the problem of having to fit the basics and ewar modules at the same time, especially for the Rook who also shares tank with mids. With these role bonuses the slot layout can be rejigged to allow for a greater ewar focus, with better fitting choices
ROLE BONUS: 20% Shield or Armor resistance bonus 50% Bonus to Afterburner Speed
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Qual
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
61
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:34:05 -
[524] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.
CCP plz... think about WH too! :/
Come on! It is brilliant. Dont think about what THEY will do to you. Think about what YOU can do to them. Muahahahahaha!
Live in a WH. Love the idea.
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Marlona Sky
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
5734
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:36:19 -
[525] - Quote
I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP?
The Paradox
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Sable Blitzmann
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
152
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:36:54 -
[526] - Quote
Typo with the curse:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-187) / 1650 / 1075(+203)
I'm showing current value for shields/armor/hp as 1238/1463/872, making the only modification to make sense the hull HP. Can you clarify |
Fzhal
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:41:22 -
[527] - Quote
Okay, I really like the idea of removing Combat Recons from D-Scan, but as explained so far it is too OP. This would make at least one Combat Probe Launcher required for every solo or gang PvP. Combat Probes aren't easy to fit... This change would effectively/eventually cause D-Scan to be removed or replaced by the current probing mechanics.
Current safety practices by security to keep in mind for the rest of this post:
- High - Carebear safety goggles on max polarization
- Low - D-Scan everything except gates and understand that unknowns in local could be allied and people can hurt PvP viability with cloaks
- Null - Unknown in local = Warp to safe/POS and maybe get combat ship
- WH - D-Scan done every few seconds (Why is there no hotkey for this? Because of macros isn't a great reason.)
Places D-Scan immunity NOT OP:
- High Sec for the most part
- 0.0 - Face it, with Local, Cyno's, alliance/region chat, and all other intracacies/practices that happen in Null... this is a very small issue
Places D-Scan immunity IS OP: *Caveats - Most of this can be done with less powerful Cov Ops Cloaking ship .
- Mission/Ship Balancing - This literally impacts the balance of all game content for those who PvE in unowned territory "No one is just out of D-Scan range or passing through system..." Combat probes or you're stupid
- Faction Warfare (Moderate) - This is meant to be a PvP gateway for newbies (FW signup should give a popup for optional D-Scan training regardless). Combat recon sits in FW medium+ plex for easy KB-padding/LOL-fest because Combat PL gimps frigates
- Anomalies/Plexing in non-alliance territory - Anything that doesn't need probing to find (I personally think that all Null/WH sigs should require probing, maybe Low Sec but it would complicate FW. It makes sense in High/low Sec because Concord does it.)
- Wormhole Corps (Moderate) - See Anomalies/Plexing/Balance above, but delayed local makes it worse. WH residents have benefit of switching ships so don't equip Combat PL. If Anomalies stay same, this requires them to have one Combat PL in system while doing Anomalies
- Wormhole Daytrippers (Moderate) - See Wormhole Corps above. This would decrease WH daytripping significantly
Let's face it, with best practices in mind, FW has flooded low-sec and made it much more dangerous than anywhere else. So this mainly affects solo and small gangs because, for the most part, Combat Recons are much better in situations when DPS/Tank is favored over the cloak of Force Recons. So that means that the OP factor can be quantified as the difference in combat usefulness between Combat and Force Recon ships. Funny, this whole time I thought I would end up concluding that this is way OP, but it really isn't. That being said, I still think that it is a little overpowered in FW and Wormholes only.
Suggested changes relating to D-Scan immunity:
- Warp disables D-Scan immunity (FW plex camping issues remain)
- A drawback, because solo and small gangs are limited on intel and in those cases D-Scan immunity has 90% of the Cov Ops Cloak's benefits. Something like longer lock time, but that is tricky because the Combat Recons have a good niche that should be augmented, not rebalanced. Something better would be something like a new module or T3 Destroyer toggle that causes locking delay for 4-10 seconds after turning it off.
- D-Scan immunity only works if 100Km from all objects - D-Scan works if they're within gate/WH range (Mostly fixes FW issues, but not sure about ECM range)
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Marlona Sky
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
5734
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:42:39 -
[528] - Quote
In the end, as long as local remains a thing; nothing will change in regards to combat recons causing more PvP to happen. No one waits for the ship to appear on D-scan before warping to the safety of a POS/station/safe spot to cloak.
The other issue is a PvE fit ship is no match for a PvP fit ship. Flying a PvP fit ship to do these PvE sites is crazy talk and sticking around to fight a PvP fit ship with a PvE setup is equally silly.
CCP, you have to address this sooner that later. Only then will you have the freedom to be as creative as you want when it comes to balancing these ships.
The Paradox
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S'No Flake
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
45
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:43:43 -
[529] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:There is a couple things here I am concerned about:
- ECM still offers no counter play. Effectively rendering a player unable to do anything for at least 20 seconds plus the time it takes them to relock anything. 99.99% fo all combat in this game involves locking a target. ECM drones turn any ship into a diet Blackbird. ECM needs to be revamped from the ground up and should not involve removing a players ability to play the game.
- Celestis being incredibly powerful from 100+km is silly.
- If it turns out combat recons not being on the directional scanner is an option, perhaps showing the ships as the T1 version of the ship instead would be a good compromise. i.e. the directional scanner shows an Arbitrator on scan when in fact it is really a Curse.
Semi-related, but what are the odds of a new high slot module that can not be fit if there is any type of cyno fit as well, only allowed for recons and means they do not appear in local? Perhaps I am dreaming a bit too hard here.
The counterplay to ECM it's the damp from Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis.. Hell, Keres does a great job at that too :) |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
211
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:48:05 -
[530] - Quote
I see a lot of FW carebears whining. CCP could just disallow Recons from your cribs, I mean plexs. |
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Dani Maulerant
Order of the Valkyrie LOADED-DICE
7
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:50:03 -
[531] - Quote
Eh, dscan immunity is pretty way out there. If anything it makes the two versions of recons much closer to the same as force recons cloak to not appear on scans, while combat recons have a built in effective cloak just long as they're not on grid.
Looking at the curse/pilgrim for instance, Curse seems miles better. Both a neut range and amount (very important), while being effectively cloaked when just simply not on grid. Pilgrim now getting a range bonus but the neuts work at base drain amount as if fitted to a T1 cruiser like they often are anyways, and with only a couple being able to be fit really exacerbates that issue.
I really hoped Pilgrim would shine, as well as force recons in general, but it seems Curse will be the solid go-to one with its Dscan immunity (effectively a cloak), tank, neut amount on top of range. and more highs to fit more neuts that further multiply that capability.
And while probing is 'possible', it's not a reasonable expectation to impose on everyone. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1262
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:53:20 -
[532] - Quote
Those of you decrying directional scanning as an "effective cloak" must not do a lot of gatecamping.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
392
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:53:55 -
[533] - Quote
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:Suitonia wrote:Also worth pointing out that this invalidates many guerrilla warfare techniques that solo and smaller entitys use to engage larger groups. One technique is warping to a different celestial in a system and engaging there, hoping the enemy forces are split up, and you can guage by the directional scanner what is following you and their arrival time roughly, with these new combat recons that is thrown out of the window entirely, even if a cloaked recon follows you they have to suffer from 5 second decloak timer+lock time, and the fact that they tend to be more vulnerable and bring less DPS than the combat varients, which gives you more counterplay, and time to try and disengage or kill your target before it can influence the fight, I really dislike taking away this ability.
Complex/Site/Mission runners will now need a mandatory alt watching the entrance of their plex, if you were vigilant with directional scanner you could detect covert ops invaders and the cloaking delay gives you time to try and escape or fight.
FW will probably be hit hardest by this, you see a t1 cruiser in a medium plex on d-scan, great, you go in with your cruiser, then find a curse and 2 rooks on grid. Likewise, you could be in a t1 Cruiser, see another t1 cruiser come in so decide to stay and fight. then 2 rooks come in and it's gg and you couldn't possibly prevent it without having an alt watching the entrance. A combat recon could also capture plexes without anyone ever knowing about it unless there is someone watching the inside constantly, which invalidates a lot of FW sieging and defensive plexing.
I only see this ability being used to gank people who can't possibly scout these ganks, unless they have meta knowledge, which is a lot like hotdrops (Which is one of the reasons why you nerfed long distance travel and jump bridge ranges to curtail this type of gameplay)
This ability is not useful to solo/small gang players who roam to engage other players in nullsec, and possibly more organised lowsec, since they'll quickly be reported in intel and as soon as a combat recon is spotted they know you're in one when they see your character in local and just leave whatever they're doing assuming you're there. this ability is not useful to large fleets who are scouted anyway, and are large enough that they can't really hide their shiptypes, and would probably prefer their recon pilots had covert cloak + cynosural field bonus for escalation potential.
I feel like this ability only punishes solo/small gang players You realize that bombers can get lock the second they decloak, right? They have no recalibration delay. I've caught stuff like that before. Is that OP? How about if I sig tank it so it takes you 5 seconds to lock while the rest of my allies land? Is that too OP for you? IF you're in a DED site, you're moving around. You're not sitting on the gate, even if you're armor tanked. You'll have time while the recon lands and starts locking you. It's the same as if a Garmur lands; you barely have any warning and it can point you from a hell of a long range. As a small gang player, I disagree with you completely.
Stealth Bombers are incredibly vulnerable, having just a few thousand effective hit-points even when buffer fit, especially if they operate in disruption range, cloaked bombers and recons have to 'sneak up' on you, so they are much harder to be used offensively than the new combat recons, since you not only have about 5-6x more time to sort yourself out, clear the scram/web rats, align out, get as much valuable loot as you can etc, as cloaked ships need to approach at base speed, while also avoiding obstacles in sites which can decloak them. if someone lands on you because you're already set up, that's perfectly fine. Remember that FW Plexes also have a 30km non-cloak radius around the button, so a cloaked bomber would still need to approach a small distance before getting the 'insta' heated disruptor on you, and you would not be scrammed by this, which is very important when it comes to being able to disengage. All the current recons aside from an officer scram Arazu which requires a complete glass-fit with expensive RCUs cannot turn off your MWD from outside the FW plex non-cloak range. Even if you're moving around in a DED site, it's not always possible to be perfectly aligned, and outside a potential 90km disruption from a Lachesis, while also having to apply your DPS meaningfully to the rats, and looting the containers/structures, while also dealing with scram/web rats.
Garmur can be seen on directional scanner, it has the same warp speed as a frigate. I think it's perfectly fine.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:01:58 -
[534] - Quote
Rise if I were you I woudl reverse rapier and huggin on missiles and guns. Rapier already has cloak. It doe snto nee d to have the strongest weapon system to add on that.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:06:01 -
[535] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:I'm on the fence with these changes. I feel they might be overshadowing HACs a bit, and I'm definitely opposed to buffing the defense of force recons that much as they can fit cov ops cloaks.
Perhaps bring the resistance profiles of the force recons up to what the combat recons are now, and up the combat recons up to HAC-level?
Also, special attention needs to be given to the Rook as it must split its mids between tank and ECM, its lows between damage and ECM, and its rigs between ECM and all the other things that compete for rig slots. The result is either go for ECM and fly the Falcon, or go for damage and fly a Cerberus, Drake, (insert ship that does missiles better).
Perhaps change the Falcon's bonus to ECM range instead of strength, and/or give a stronger missile/ECM bonus to the Rook?
The recons have far less DPS and do nto get signature reduction. They are not brute force comprable to HACS, but they can be as effective isf not mroe with usage fo the Ewar.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
147
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:10:55 -
[536] - Quote
"Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners "
Well, that makes the cloaks almost useless. This goes against the grain in so many levels and makes recons op.
I'm all for making them "unique" but this is unique enough they now don't belong in EVE anymore.
Totally against it. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
578
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:13:45 -
[537] - Quote
Tarek Raimo wrote:Mr Floydy wrote:Tarek Raimo wrote:Your spotters see that 50 of them are Ishtars/Tengus/Whatever FOTM + Logi, the other 50 are unaccounted for. Therefore, they could be any of four shiptypes with HAC tanks, dangerous EWAR and the damage potential of at least an AF. Or it could be a fleet of 50 cloaky Proteus/Stratios each with over 500dps and a massive tank that have bridged in..... Oh wait that can happen now. You could still spot those at the moment they bridge in and before they can activate their cloak. Also, who seriously bridges 50 cloaky T3s to a covert cyno anyway, let alone that I would like to see a cloaky Proteus fit that does 500+dps.
[Proteus, Covert Gank] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I Medium Anti-EM Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Hobgoblin II x5
>550 dps with Void |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2026
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:16:13 -
[538] - Quote
wrote:I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP?
never been killed by a curse?
i did see one kill back in o6 where it was a curse and a vegabond.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1928
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:16:35 -
[539] - Quote
People are way overreacting to the scan immunity.
Any cloakwarper already had that.
Force recons, STRATIOS, T3, Bombers.
VERY little change in the metagame. Most people already react to LOCAL and not dscan. Exaclty because other cloak warpers already made unsafe to rely on the d-scan as an warnign system. If you are aligned you can still warp when the combat recon get in gridd before he gets to full stop and is able to lock you. And if you were not aligned you were already going to die to a cloaked recon, Stratios or t3.
The only place where they might tip things a bit too much is in WH space.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1929
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:17:24 -
[540] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: wrote:I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP? never been killed by a curse? i did see one kill back in o6 where it was a curse and a vegabond.
MAybe you shoudl re read his sentence. JUST A RECON.. that means a recon and nothign else. That curse and vagabond would appear very well on D-SCAN.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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