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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
13
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:37:16 -
[961] - Quote
Major Margret McMurphy wrote:This non-detectable recon ships on dscan is nothing more than catering to the pvp player and is pure crap and should not be allowed. This change will make WH mining impossible and expensive.
Yes, and they also bring two of the most uncounterable, frustrating and cheap mechanics in the game - neuts and ECM. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
925
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:38:26 -
[962] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:sentinel neut power: - 108GJ every 6s *3 at 31.5km - equals 18GJ per second per neut - 54GJ/s total
new pilgrim: - 180GJ every 12s *3 at 37.8km - equals 15GJ per second per neut - 45GJ/s total
curse: - 360GJ every 6s *5 at 37.6km - equals 30GJ per second per neut -150GJ/s total
the pilgrim needs a little more love IMO. Maybe a 10% neut power bonus?
how about nerfing the sentinel instead? then pilgrim wouldn't look like it's out of line, and also it would fix the sentinel. |
Lvzbel Ixtab
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:40:40 -
[963] - Quote
DFA200 wrote:Major Margret McMurphy wrote:This non-detectable recon ships on dscan is nothing more than catering to the pvp player and is pure crap and should not be allowed. This change will make WH mining impossible and expensive. Yes, and they also bring two of the most uncounterable, frustrating and cheap mechanics in the game - neuts and ECM.
It will affect pvpers by not knowing what are we against specially in small gang pvp where having a combat prober is not viable |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate Together We Solo
226
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:43:17 -
[964] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse. Sure, that's the case in the short term. In the long term, if this gets abused as much as everyone seems to think it will get abused, "engageable"-looking fights will be less likely to be engaged. Why? Suppose my friends and I fly in a group of 3-4 Thoraxes. We run into 2 Vexors, and die to them because they were accompanied by 2 Rooks. The next day, with new Thoraxes, we run into 2 Ruptures, and die because we can't fire our guns since there's 2 Curses there. The day after that, we die to 2 Stabbers because a Lachesis and Huginn are scramming/webbing us from 30 km and we can't close range. The final outcome? One of the following:
- We stop roaming entirely.
- We get our own recons. Remember how fun (hint: not at all) this solution turned out for off-grid boosts, Falcon alts, and supercaps?
- We stop engaging anything when there are unaccounted-for neutrals in local, or stop fighting anything that isn't a single T1 frigate in our cruisers.
Ed: I should acknowledge combat probing, but it is not great counter-play for dscan-immunity. It is hard to fit, completely compromises the fit of the ship involved (or requires a dedicated ship), and adds little value to the other operations of the gang. If you were to reduce the fitting costs of Expanded Probe Launchers so they could be reasonably fit in a utility high slot of a ship, that might be OK balance as far as the new recons are involved. It would completely break other balance, though, so we're at an impasse. It could be that I and the others on the forum are wrong, recons won't be abused in this way, and won't lead to a chilling of the PvP atmosphere by fear-of-recon. I cannot predict the actions of others. I can however predict my own actions, and as someone with Recon V trained, I will abuse this mechanic silly, and keep going until I stop getting easy-mode kills. I may even switch the training on one my alts to do the same thing. So, as someone who would abuse this in order to make PvP unfun, I ask you: please do not let me make PvP unfun. Because I will. And I'm sure so will almost everyone else.
Spot on! This is the important bit people keep talking around. The problem isnGÇÖt so much of the individual fight scenarios that people are coming up with (although they do all seem to end in a GÇ£gankGÇ¥ rather than a GÇ£gud fightGÇ¥) itGÇÖs what happens the next time that small gang of thoraxs seeGÇÖs something they think they can take on a gate? How many GÇ£because of ReconsGÇ¥ does it take to disincentivize being the aggressor without having a scan alt? How many GÇ£just bring more friends to counterGÇ¥ cycles does the argument go through until itGÇÖs not a small gang anymore?
Right now not many small gangs like loosing the fights that end with GÇ£because of FalconGÇ¥ but will put up with it because itGÇÖs not too common. This change just ads a whole mess more of GÇ£because falconGÇ¥ type fights to the mix and incentivezes them to be more common (hell IGÇÖm going to do this). If they become anything but the occasional edge case fights the overall effect I think will be to prevent frig gangs from engaging anywhere in system other than in a small-novice plex and small cruiser gangs (or frig gang with cruiser support) from engaging at all without first probing the system and checking the stations.
Right now small gang and solo fighting in lowsec is actually making a pretty good rebound from the barren wasteland it was a few years ago. IGÇÖd hate to see a mechanic that could (and in my opinion will) mess that all up, thrown in just for the sake of mixing stuff up. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:48:11 -
[965] - Quote
Lvzbel Ixtab wrote:DFA200 wrote:Major Margret McMurphy wrote:This non-detectable recon ships on dscan is nothing more than catering to the pvp player and is pure crap and should not be allowed. This change will make WH mining impossible and expensive. Yes, and they also bring two of the most uncounterable, frustrating and cheap mechanics in the game - neuts and ECM. It will affect pvpers by not knowing what are we against specially in small gang pvp where having a combat prober is not viable
You know theres more options than warp to 0 and approach right? bounce a celestial, warp at random distance (70-100), have a cloaky with you... OR bring your own recons. Door swings both ways.
And if someone else creates a strawman about combat recons at random celestials in random systems at random times.. seriously grow a pair. That scenario will be so remote at happening, its more luck than the spooky dscan immunity everyone is crying about.
And i fly solo 99.9% of the time. I am not worried whatsoever. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
2179
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:50:50 -
[966] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:All covert ops cloak ships have utility high for the cloak so they don't really sacrifice fitting something else. I don't buy that. Combat recons have an extra slot over force recons.
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Recons do sacrifice something, DPS. All recons do terrible DPS. They are great force multipliers though. Which is the point. I feel this change will bring an interesting amount of unpredictability to EVE. Again, my only real gripe here is that they get it for free. I've already adjusted my exploration Cov Ops to handle an expanded probe launcher (probably something I should have done earlier anyway, tbh) and I realize that recons face the same limitations that everything else does when it comes to deciding whether to engage, especially when flying solo. It's not like this is a huge game changer in the grand game of Falcons, but it certainly does feel a bit overpowered.
A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
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Dante Mystwerk
Red Phoenix Rising Absolution Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:55:13 -
[967] - Quote
Kmelx wrote:Nova' Darkstar wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Dscan immunity is staying.
Thanks for all the feedback. Lol, why even post in features & ideas discussion, then? It's so they can say they "consulted" the player base before they made the change. Which is exactly what they have done, they consulted the player base, granted he's then gone on to ignore the views of the eve players, their paying customers, but what the hell our opinion's clearly unimportant, after all, we only have to play the game once they've made the PVP experience into an even worse abortion than it already is. As a guesstimate, I'd say 75-80-% of the people posting in here dislike the d-scan change, but like I said why should the majority view of the players of the game matter to it's developers? They've already made the decision to foist a change we don't want on us, they're not consulting with us they're simply informing us of their decision, and we can either like it or lump it.
People with negative feedback always respond more; this is true in everything. Just because x percent of people respond that they don't like something doesn't mean that percent is representative of the entire playerbase. And not changing something after getting negative feedback doesn't mean that feedback was ignored, it just means despite your concerns, for one reason or another, the change is going through still. If you don't know how feedback works, don't post in a feedback thread. |
Rhea Rankin Nolen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 17:57:42 -
[968] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:No ship in EvE had that trait yet..and for a reason. Except for every one that can fit a covert ops cloak. The SoE ships come to mind here. As do the cloaky recons and stealth bombers. Oh and T3's and to some extent Black OPs.
Except that covert ops cloak has targeting delay after decloak. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
215
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:02:36 -
[969] - Quote
Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:No ship in EvE had that trait yet..and for a reason. Except for every one that can fit a covert ops cloak. The SoE ships come to mind here. As do the cloaky recons and stealth bombers. Oh and T3's and to some extent Black OPs. Except that covert ops cloak has targeting delay after decloak.
Doesn't prevent me from killing with my proteus. |
Nalha Saldana
Shattered Void Spaceship Samurai
869
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:02:57 -
[970] - Quote
Can you please please please turn amarr, gallente and 1 of the minmatar recons into proper armor tankers with more low slots? The current slots make no sense for the races and forces armor fleets to use t3s for webs and other ewar.. |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
925
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:04:21 -
[971] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:No ship in EvE had that trait yet..and for a reason. Except for every one that can fit a covert ops cloak. The SoE ships come to mind here. As do the cloaky recons and stealth bombers. Oh and T3's and to some extent Black OPs. Except that covert ops cloak has targeting delay after decloak. Doesn't prevent me from killing with my proteus.
actually you can only catch idiots in a covops that isn't a bomber. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
245
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:06:54 -
[972] - Quote
Director Blackflame wrote:Edit: and for all the people saying the devs arent taking feedback the Rook likely would not have RLML bonuses if not for feedback here just because they arent changing a particular feature you want them to doesnt mean theyre ignoring feedback wholesale. Not empty quoting. It's amazing how many people can literally stop reading an official post by a dev as soon as they read the thing they don't like is staying. If they did read the whole post, they would see the D-Scan inmunity is staying BECAUSE of player feedback. The reasons why it's not the horrible idea they think it is have been posted over and over again across the whole topic, yet they don't seem to be willing to read them. In my opinion, refusing to hear a reasoning, or just read it (which is even easier), means that it's not really that important for them, because if it was, they would be reading the hell out of the whole topic and all its pages, in order to debate properly.
Instead, they seem to prefer resorting to anger, ignoring the already posted reasonings, and insulting the devs. Imagine how would it be to be a videogame developer, having to read all that whining. I feel sorry for our devs in that regard.
Keep up the good work, CCP.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
926
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:10:15 -
[973] - Quote
yes, thanks ccp. what we need is more ships with rlmls, because frigates are too relevant in actual fights. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
829
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:11:48 -
[974] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:I don't buy that. Combat recons have an extra slot over force recons. You should. Force recons don't have enough weapon hard points to put another bonused weapons in their extra slot. The high slots are designed so that force recons will always have less DPS than combat recons while always having a spare slot for a cloak.
Karl Hobb wrote:Again, my only real gripe here is that they get it for free. I've already adjusted my exploration Cov Ops to handle an expanded probe launcher (probably something I should have done earlier anyway, tbh) and I realize that recons face the same limitations that everything else does when it comes to deciding whether to engage, especially when flying solo. It's not like this is a huge game changer in the grand game of Falcons, but it certainly does feel a bit overpowered. I suppose we will have to see what happens when this hits TQ. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
829
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:12:48 -
[975] - Quote
Rhea Rankin Nolen wrote:Except that covert ops cloak has targeting delay after decloak. Unless you are talking about a stealth bomber. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
427
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:17:17 -
[976] - Quote
What about extending the trend for the dual weapon systems to the Amarr and Gallente lines. Make all the cloaky recons be turret based (Pilgrim, Falcon, Arazu, and Rapier) and make the combat recons the other racial weapon system:
Curse: Drones Rook: Missiles Lachesis: Drones Huginn: Missiles
I know there are issues with the manufacturers of the ships, but can't we over look that for some cool game play rather than it being a game design restriction? Also since space objects can't you easily switch the skins/models to accommodate this?
EDIT: In fact wouldn't this give them a weakness to counter their disruption? Drones can be destroyed. Missiles can be smartbombed. |
Helene Fidard
13
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:20:18 -
[977] - Quote
Oh I've been dying for a Recon buff, let's see what we've got
CCP Rise wrote: Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners The average maximum velocity across the class is going up by around 20m/s PILGRIM We decided that the Pilgrim really needed Nos/Neut range, rather than strength, to give it the engagement flexibility that other Recons enjoy.
godammit Rise |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
57
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:21:48 -
[978] - Quote
Quote:Close the gap somewhat between Recons and T3 Cruisers, though this will also be a goal during the T3 Cruiser rebalance
And where armor tank tackler? Arazu with insane 4 armor slots?
Why fleet that basic have less spead coz of tank type still have short range tackler and cant normaly reach enemy fleet?
Where balance between proteus and arazu/lache? Make arazu armor tanked.
BTW amar have no choise in armor fleet too but not like gallent with 4 low arazu. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1062
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:22:32 -
[979] - Quote
also curse needs to be armour and missile based its khanid Rise!!!!!
please reduce the crazy high sig radius please
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:24:01 -
[980] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:[quote=Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron][quote=Daneel Trevize][quote=Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
]SNIP....
I mark every Falcon, Rapier pilot i encounter in game, everyone. If i see a marked one in local i won't blind warp into any medium plex at all, just warp to a nearby celestial and see if something decloaks.
That's another thing that needs looking at - The free intel available from being able to put anyone you want on a watch list.
The D-Scan invisibility is really a minor buff with the largest effect being seen in WH space - and unlike the ability to add some unknowing player to a watch list, its is available to all players who can fly the Recon.
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Lucius Regall
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
42
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Posted - 2014.12.19 18:24:44 -
[981] - Quote
Instead of Combat Recons not appearing on D-Scan at all, how about something slightly less game breaking?
Combat Recons appear on D-Scan at 4AU or closer.
Combat Recons appear as [Combat Recon] not as the usual ship type.
Combat Recons can be adjusted to appear as some other type of ship. |
Ele Rebellion
Dead Star Syndicate I'd Rather Be Roaming
31
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Posted - 2014.12.19 18:31:26 -
[982] - Quote
CCP Rise
Can I put a scenario in your head?
Faction Warfare. Medium Site. There are 3 or 4 people in local so you decide to try a medium site. D-Scan is clear. Land on gate. D-Scan is still clear. Take gate..
.. As you land you see Lachesis, Huggins, Rook at 30-100km. Lachesis is remote sebo'd. Triple scrams you as soon as you come out of warp. the huggins gets webs and target painters second later. Finally you are perma-jammed.
Scrammed, webbed, target painted, and jammed.
FW will change heavily when the D-Scan immunity goes into effect. People will avoid mediums like the plague, it will become a hunting ground of Force Recons. (might settle after first couple months, but will there be much left when the dust settles?)
True D-Scan immunity will be game breaking. Now if there was a mechanic of kinds where the ship becomes visible if within range of an object or using prop mod or something.
Most importantly they shouldn't be allowed to be "invisible" in a FW Plex. Didn't you just make it to where you can't cloak for this reason? The scenario is part of a doctrine I put together as soon as I heard about to D-Scan immunity, but as I've thought about it more I feel that it is OP, unfair, and game breaking. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
928
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:33:37 -
[983] - Quote
Ele Rebellion wrote:CCP Rise
Can I put a scenario in your head?
Faction Warfare. Medium Site. There are +3 or +4 people in local so you decide to try a medium site. D-Scan is clear. Land on gate. D-Scan is still clear. Take gate..
.. As you land you see Lachesis, Huggins, Rook at 30-100km. Lachesis is remote sebo'd. Triple scrams you as soon as you come out of warp. the huggins gets webs and target painters second later. Finally you are perma-jammed.
Scrammed, webbed, target painted, and jammed.
FW will change heavily when the D-Scan immunity goes into effect. People will avoid mediums like the plague, it will become a hunting ground of Force Recons. (might settle after first couple months, but will there be much left when the dust settles?)
True D-Scan immunity will be game breaking. Now if there was a mechanic of kinds where the ship becomes visible if within range of an object or using prop mod or something.
Most importantly they shouldn't be allowed to be "invisible" in a FW Plex. Didn't you just make it to where you can't cloak for this reason? The scenario is part of a doctrine I put together as soon as I heard about to D-Scan immunity, but as I've thought about it more I feel that it is OP, unfair, and game breaking.
apparently that counts as a fight, and apparently more fights is always better. also apparently it's forcing you to be less risk-averse because you're more at risk of getting blobbed by cloakers whenever you do anything (ignoring the fact that it's allowing risk-averse cloak scum to be more successful in pvp). no, I don't understand it either. |
Ele Rebellion
Dead Star Syndicate I'd Rather Be Roaming
31
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Posted - 2014.12.19 18:35:34 -
[984] - Quote
Also Just like Mobile D-Scan Inhibitors.. They should be incredibly easy to combat probe. |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
102
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:36:57 -
[985] - Quote
D SCAN IMMUNITY
Since you seem set on d scan immunity, lets at least add a fun and more interesting way to get intel other than d scan.
Core scout probes. Basically combat probes that fit inside core launchers, doesn't allow you to get a warp but lets you see what is hiding out there.
Depending on balance it would make a fun addition, large range scout probes could be used to check far out gates quickly, and gather fundamental intel. Also being used in a team with combat probes would let you get very percise locations on enemy ships with out nessisarily giving away you are looking for them.
Some kind of lower level counter is needed if this change is to go forward.
ROOK
Also give the rook another low and more pwg. And some more armor, just accept the fact that its ecm so you will need to armor tank it. Lore wise we can just say that the state has accepted the fact that capsullers want there ecm ships to actually survive.
Slot layout: 4H(-1), 7M, 4L(+1); 2 turrets, 4 launchers (-1) Fittings: 700 PWG (+100), 600 CPU
I still think the ship would be more interesting and better served with a 20% strength and a 10% range bonus to ECM |
Ele Rebellion
Dead Star Syndicate I'd Rather Be Roaming
31
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:37:15 -
[986] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Ele Rebellion wrote:CCP Rise
Can I put a scenario in your head?
Faction Warfare. Medium Site. There are +3 or +4 people in local so you decide to try a medium site. D-Scan is clear. Land on gate. D-Scan is still clear. Take gate..
.. As you land you see Lachesis, Huggins, Rook at 30-100km. Lachesis is remote sebo'd. Triple scrams you as soon as you come out of warp. the huggins gets webs and target painters second later. Finally you are perma-jammed.
Scrammed, webbed, target painted, and jammed.
FW will change heavily when the D-Scan immunity goes into effect. People will avoid mediums like the plague, it will become a hunting ground of Force Recons. (might settle after first couple months, but will there be much left when the dust settles?)
True D-Scan immunity will be game breaking. Now if there was a mechanic of kinds where the ship becomes visible if within range of an object or using prop mod or something.
Most importantly they shouldn't be allowed to be "invisible" in a FW Plex. Didn't you just make it to where you can't cloak for this reason? The scenario is part of a doctrine I put together as soon as I heard about to D-Scan immunity, but as I've thought about it more I feel that it is OP, unfair, and game breaking. apparently that counts as a fight, and apparently more fights is always better. also apparently it's forcing you to be less risk-averse because you're more at risk of getting blobbed by cloakers whenever you do anything (ignoring the fact that it's allowing risk-averse cloak scum to be more successful in pvp). no, I don't understand it either.
But with cloakers, they have to break cloak to take the gate. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
227
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Posted - 2014.12.19 18:43:25 -
[987] - Quote
Please give the Huginn its launchers back. The missile based fit was one of the things I enjoyed about the ship. AC can't project far enough to compliment the webs and arty fits have significant fitting challenges. |
Lvzbel Ixtab
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
38
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Posted - 2014.12.19 18:45:00 -
[988] - Quote
Ele Rebellion wrote:CCP Rise
Can I put a scenario in your head?
Faction Warfare. Medium Site. There are +3 or +4 people in local so you decide to try a medium site. D-Scan is clear. Land on gate. D-Scan is still clear. Take gate..
.. As you land you see Lachesis, Huggins, Rook at 30-100km. Lachesis is remote sebo'd. Triple scrams you as soon as you come out of warp. the huggins gets webs and target painters second later. Finally you are perma-jammed.
Scrammed, webbed, target painted, and jammed.
FW will change heavily when the D-Scan immunity goes into effect. People will avoid mediums like the plague, it will become a hunting ground of Force Recons. (might settle after first couple months, but will there be much left when the dust settles?)
True D-Scan immunity will be game breaking. Now if there was a mechanic of kinds where the ship becomes visible if within range of an object or using prop mod or something.
Most importantly they shouldn't be allowed to be "invisible" in a FW Plex. Didn't you just make it to where you can't cloak for this reason? The scenario is part of a doctrine I put together as soon as I heard about to D-Scan immunity, but as I've thought about it more I feel that it is OP, unfair, and game breaking.
Good stuff and is not only a scenario because it will totally happen just like sebo gate camping frigs with fighters happen, and not only mediums i would say a lot of the plexes because they can just sit outside the play and be the same problem |
Sakura Blake
Quafe Commandos The Obsidian Front
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:54:45 -
[989] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:The Pilgrim. Opinions seem mixed, gaining neut range is obviously nice but many of you still feel that giving up neut strength is too harsh, or that some other added power is needed (more damage for instance). Will get back to you on this as soon as possible but it's possible that we will make adjustments.
Personally I would prioritise the range over the strength. That being said I would prefer;
- Range based off cruiser skill
- Strength based off recon skill
Or something similar |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 18:58:14 -
[990] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:yes, thanks ccp. what we need is more ships with rlmls, because frigates are too relevant in actual fights.
So in your corner of EVE, roaming gangs of intys, garmurs, worms arent a thing? See it all the time, and its the best counter against them. Nuke a couple frigs and GTFO, biggest middle finger to these types of gangs. Especially since they're all over FW.
How bout people start bringing cruisers to support their frigs, RLML dont have the damage potential to kill a cruiser in one magazine. |
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