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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
76
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:30:12 -
[1] - Quote
Please fix this broken mechanic.
No reason why an afk alt should be able to stop someone from taking unmanned ships.
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Paranoid Loyd
3076
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:31:59 -
[2] - Quote
If the alt is AFK shoot it. The only thing broken is your logic.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Alice Saki
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
113864
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:40:16 -
[3] - Quote
wut?
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
76
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:51:23 -
[4] - Quote
Hi sec.
MTU warriors using this mechanic to keep their scout and gank ships afk in space till some foolish mission runner decides to engage the cheap bait ship.
They change to the more expensive ones, kill the player, and then park it in space unmanned but targeted.
I could of stolen the expensive unmanned ships but it was targeted by the afk scout ship.
Broken mechanic.
Leave your ship, risk it being stolen.....nope.....another no risk broken mechanic. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4453
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:52:28 -
[5] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Please fix this broken mechanic.
No reason why an afk alt should be able to stop someone from taking unmanned ships. Use an alt to ECM jam the AFK fool. Take ship.
Bump AFK fool out of lock range. Take the ship.
Destroy AFK fool. Take the ship.
I miss any? |
Eli Apol
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:53:14 -
[6] - Quote
Does concord respond if you gank an empty ship? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:54:16 -
[7] - Quote
Just steal the wheels instead. |
Paranoid Loyd
3078
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:55:34 -
[8] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Hi sec.
MTU warriors using this mechanic to keep their scout and gank ships afk in space till some foolish mission runner decides to engage the cheap bait ship.
They change to the more expensive ones, kill the player, and then park it in space unmanned but targeted.
I could of stolen the expensive unmanned ships but it was targeted by the afk scout ship.
Broken mechanic.
Leave your ship, risk it being stolen.....nope.....another no risk broken mechanic. You are so bad at this game it is comical.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.18 22:56:50 -
[9] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Does concord respond if you gank an empty ship?
Sure will, it be unpiloted not unowned.
They will also smack you down for shooting at blue cargo containers.
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Paranoid Loyd
3079
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:02:44 -
[10] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Does concord respond if you gank an empty ship? Sure will, it be unpiloted not unowned. They will also smack you down for shooting at blue cargo containers that you don't own.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
317
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:07:55 -
[11] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Please fix this broken mechanic.
No reason why an afk alt should be able to stop someone from taking unmanned ships.
Why do you not use the other mechanic you claim is broken and bump the target ship out of targeting range?
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2974
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:14:33 -
[12] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
I also removed a rule breaking post.
The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
119
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:15:56 -
[13] - Quote
The broken logic in this thread is on the part of the gankers, not the OP.
EHP potential of certain ships (while cap stable with an MWD running...) make bumping or ganking an unfeasible option without the help of a gang a dozen strong.
If this thread were changed to "Procurer pilot targeting his empty Orca while orbiting with an AB" the sentiment would be very different. Bias is just one of those things.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Paranoid Loyd
3080
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:26:43 -
[14] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:The broken logic in this thread is on the part of the repliers, not the OP.
EHP potential of certain ships (while cap stable with an MWD running...) make bumping or ganking an unfeasible option without the help of a gang a dozen strong.
OP is correct in this regard, however there are other considerations when it comes to this mechanic. Freighter swapping after going suspect comes to mind and can be used as an argument to keep mechanics as is.
If this thread were changed to "Procurer pilot targeting his empty Orca while orbiting with an AB" though, I get the feeling the sentiment would be very different. Bias is just one of those things. You simply made the opposite assumption "the gankers" did. Your comment is not any less bias than ours without more information as to the actual circumstances.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
464
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:30:30 -
[15] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:If this thread were changed to "Procurer pilot targeting his empty Orca while orbiting with an AB" though, I get the feeling the sentiment in the responses would be very different. Bias is just one of those things . Why? If someone wants to sell their Orca for the price of a griffin or two, who's going to complain? |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
119
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Posted - 2014.12.18 23:56:05 -
[16] - Quote
My point is that this adversely affects ganker/baiter playstyle which I believe the be the main motivation in defending this mechanic. If used by the carebears to the same affect it wouldn't be surprising to see a different reaction. Maybe I'm wrong but keep in mind I have Mind Reading trained to V.
I hadn't thought of this targeting trick myself before this, I should admit. I fully plan to use it to my advantage. But I don't think it's fair just because it benefits me. That's carebear thinking. Theft is one of my favorite aspects about EVE over other MMOs and this works against it, plain and simple.
Let's move on to what's actually worth discussing which is the mechanic itself. As an elite EFT warrior I can show you a fit that can keep an unmanned ship locked while orbiting it at 5,000
[Damnation, No Theft]
2x ECCM - Radar II Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) Gistum B-Type 10MN Microwarpdrive
2x 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 3x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
2x Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Plug that into EFT and tell me what the plan is to get that from stopping it's targeting of the unmanned ship. Now add boosts and implants. Now replace the ECCM with more targeting range mods and add another alt to the equation using remote ECCM on the Damnation. We can go on like this, but clearly this is not feasible to stop in high-sec. Not without a gang, which I don't think should be a prerequisite when a player wants to steal a single unmanned ship he stumbles upon in open space.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
465
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Posted - 2014.12.19 01:10:44 -
[17] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Plug that into EFT and tell me what the plan is to get that from stopping it's targeting of the unmanned ship. (Shh... nobody tell him about marauders, or he'll have a real fit!)
You're acting like stealing unmanned ships is core gameplay necessary to check player behavior: it's not. If someone wants to go through the trouble of training into a command ship just to keep a ship locked that he isn't currently using, then good for him, I guess. Somehow, EVE will survive the occasionally empty hull sitting in a belt.
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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
14
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:26:09 -
[18] - Quote
Hmm, this mechanic (locking a ship prevents anyone from boarding it) seems to have been introduced for a reason, but i haven't been able to find a relevant thread/devblog yet. All the use cases i can think of at the moment are already covered by POS shields. Could anyone please enlighten me as to why it was introduced? Thanks in advance. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1788
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:38:11 -
[19] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:Hmm, this mechanic (locking a ship prevents anyone from boarding it) seems to have been introduced for a reason, but i haven't been able to find a relevant thread/devblog yet. All the use cases i can think of at the moment are already covered by POS shields. Could anyone please enlighten me as to why it was introduced? Thanks in advance. To stop the Orca risk free pooping out ships/scooping them up. However the fact that only the intended recipient/orca pilot knows exactly when the ship will be pooped/scooped tends to negate the ability to target the ship to prevent things anyway. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
121
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:54:40 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Plug that into EFT and tell me what the plan is to get that from stopping it's targeting of the unmanned ship. (Shh... nobody tell him about marauders, or he'll have a real fit!) You're acting like stealing unmanned ships is core gameplay necessary to check player behavior: it's not. If someone wants to go through the trouble of training into a command ship just to keep a ship locked that he isn't currently using, then good for him, I guess. Somehow, EVE will survive the occasionally empty hull sitting in a belt. I'm disagreeing with you, not having a fit. This is what we in the civilized world call a discussion.
I am mainly addressing the claim that a single pilot or a pilot and his alt/friend can do much to combat this if the culprit is using a ship fit for the purpose. People said gank him, bump him, jam him, damp him. I'm showing why those suggestions are not feasible.
Marauders is a terrible suggestion anyways. In Bastion they can't move, so they can't keep up with the unmanned ship if it's bumped. Out of bastion a Command Ship outdoes it. Please don't make suggestions if you are ignorant about game mechanics. Noobs read these forums you know, they won't know any better.
Whether the ability to steal unmanned ships is necessary is debatable. As I said earlier there are reasons to be argued to keep mechanics as is. I clearly do think there are also reasons to allow targeted ships to be stolen. EVE is a conflict driven game that thrives off player interaction. The underlying principles promote risk/reward. I think the ability to have your ship stolen if you haven't manned it is part of that risk/reward model. Targeting the ship in the fit I linked breaks the risk/reward model and also stems player interaction.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
465
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Posted - 2014.12.19 03:09:50 -
[21] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I'm disagreeing with you, not having a fit. This is what we in the civilized world call a discussion. You are inventing scenarios where people take extreme measures for the purpose of doing something entirely mundane. This is not a discussion. This is a farce. Here's your jester's cap.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I am mainly addressing the claim that a single pilot or a pilot and his alt/friend can do much to combat this if the culprit is using a ship fit for the purpose. And no one can stop me from dropping a jet can if I use a ship specifically fit for that purpose. Quick! Nerf jet cans!
What else should we complain about being being able to do without interference? Run D-Scan? Look at their overview? Spin in a station? Turn on their computers? Without demonstrating why this is a problem there is no basis for calling for any change whatsoever.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Marauders is a terrible suggestion anyways. In Bastion they can't move, so they can't keep up with the unmanned ship if it's bumped. Out of bastion a Command Ship outdoes it. Please don't make suggestions if you are ignorant about game mechanics. Noobs read these forums you know, they won't know any better. Which is why you have two. Please keep up. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
121
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Posted - 2014.12.19 03:30:07 -
[22] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:You are inventing scenarios where people take extreme measures for the purpose of doing something entirely mundane. This is not a discussion. This is a farce. Here's your jester's cap. It's not a discussion now because you got defensive, like a baby, when someone disagreed with you. Here's your pacifier.
It's called EVE, if you don't think people take extreme measures you don't understand the game you're playing. Here we have a player who tried to steal a ship. Players responded he should just gank the scout or bump it or whatever. Let's say he does. What do you think the scout will do the next time he wants to lock an unmanned ship? Use the same bumpable, jammable, gankable fit that just got his ship stolen?
Quote:And no one can stop me from dropping a jet can if I use a ship specifically fit for that purpose. Quick! Nerf jet cans! A jetcan cannot be made impossible to steal from. If it could, you bet there would be uproar about that.
Quote:What else should we complain about being being able to do without interference? Run D-Scan? Look at their overview? Spin in a station? Turn on their computers? Without demonstrating why this is a problem there is no basis for calling for any change whatsoever. So why should suicide ganking be part of the game? Why should a risk/reward model be in place at all? I've already defended this. You are not manning your ship to gain an advantage when weighed against your other options. Greater rewards come with greater risks... unless you have a Damnation apparently.
Quote:Which is why you have two. Please keep up. The one in Bastion mode is still as useless, and the one not in Bastion mode is still worse than the Command Ship. Or two Command Ships I guess, because apparently we're now in the business of goal post moving. Please make sense. Or better yet, just stop talking about things you know little about.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
465
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Posted - 2014.12.19 04:02:35 -
[23] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:It's called EVE, if you don't think people take extreme measures you don't understand the game you're playing. Here we have a player who tried to steal a ship. Players responded he should just gank the scout or bump it or whatever. Let's say he does. What do you think the scout will do the next time he wants to lock an unmanned ship? Use the same bumpable, jammable, gankable fit that just got his ship stolen? He might do something completely broken and use his alt to actually sit in the ship. Clearly, that needs to be nerfed.
Quote:A jetcan cannot be made impossible to steal from. If it could, you bet there would be uproar about that. I said nothing about stealing. I said deploying. Deploying jet cans is a broken mechanic. CCP needs to fix it.
Quote:So why should suicide ganking be part of the game? Why should a risk/reward model be in place at all? I've already defended this. You are not manning your ship to gain an advantage when weighed against your other options. Greater rewards come with greater risks... unless you have a Damnation apparently. The damnation can still be stolen from with just a bumping ship and an alt (maybe... might not even need that), no special mods needed. I'll watch as you try to puzzle that one out.
Quote:The one in Bastion mode is still as useless, and the one not in Bastion mode is still worse than the Command Ship. Or two Command Ships I guess, because apparently we're now in the business of goal post moving. Sigh. The marauders alternate, using MJDs to close distance as needed. Not rocket science. Still vulnerable to the same tactic as what will defeat your Command ship. But then, any strategy you come up with (aside for the totally broken idea of putting your targeting alt in the unmanned ship; CCP really needs to let us steal already manned vessels to stop that.)
As for goal post moving, you're the one who started with an alt in a fricken command ship for this. And even that training is no match for a pair of characters with a quarter the SPs between them. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
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Posted - 2014.12.19 04:48:49 -
[24] - Quote
MTU warriors use a Scythe to try and draw mission runner into a fight.
Somewhere else in the system they have a couple unmanned Navy Issue Scythes parked with a Heron and an unmanned destroyer.
I set up my cloaked scout ship 100km away from the unmanned ships, inline with the station. I had an alt warp in 100km from the scout which put me on top of the unmanned ships. But due to them being targeted it makes them 100% safe.
People say scan the pirates down.........I did, and yet again they are hiding behind a broken mechanic.
That is like walking down the street and seeing a Ferrari running/open with a sign that says its free, but because the Honda has its lights on and pointed at the Ferrari it makes it impossible to get in and drive away.
The more layers of the onion I peel away the more my eyes tear up.
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
318
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Posted - 2014.12.19 05:32:13 -
[25] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
I am mainly addressing the claim that a single pilot or a pilot and his alt/friend can do much to combat this if the culprit is using a ship fit for the purpose. People said gank him, bump him, jam him, damp him. I'm showing why those suggestions are not feasible.
Bumping is perfectly feasible, you have shifted the goal posts by claiming that my suggestion was directed toward a single pilot and or his alt friend. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
998
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Posted - 2014.12.19 06:33:13 -
[26] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote: MTU warriors use a Scythe to try and draw mission runner into a fight.
Somewhere else in the system they have a couple unmanned Navy Issue Scythes parked with a Heron and an unmanned destroyer.
I set up my cloaked scout ship 100km away from the unmanned ships, inline with the station. I had an alt warp in 100km from the scout which put me on top of the unmanned ships. But due to them being targeted it makes them 100% safe.
People say scan the pirates down.........I did, and yet again they are hiding behind a broken mechanic.
That is like walking down the street and seeing a Ferrari running/open with a sign that says its free, but because the Honda has its lights on and pointed at the Ferrari it makes it impossible to get in and drive away.
The more layers of the onion I peel away the more my eyes tear up.
odd. I usually just use an incursus or ishkur to try and draw mission runners into a fight... and then continue to use said incursus or ishkur to finish the fight. Maybe I'm just being lazy.
That thing you just poasted? Yeah, that. That's the reason Ezwal always looks unhappy.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
367
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Posted - 2014.12.19 10:33:59 -
[27] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:My point is that the suggestion to change this adversely affects ganker/baiter playstyle which I believe the be the main motivation in defending this mechanic. If used by the carebears to the same affect it wouldn't be surprising to see a different reaction. Maybe I'm wrong but keep in mind I have Mind Reading trained to V.
I hadn't thought of this targeting trick myself before this, I should admit. I fully plan to use it to my advantage. But I don't think it's fair just because it benefits me. That's carebear thinking. Theft is one of my favorite aspects about EVE over other MMOs and this works against it, plain and simple.
Let's move on to what's actually worth discussing which is the mechanic itself. As an elite EFT warrior I can show you a fit that can keep an unmanned ship locked while orbiting it at 5,000
[Damnation, No Theft]
2x ECCM - Radar II Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) Gistum B-Type 10MN Microwarpdrive
2x 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 3x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
2x Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Plug that into EFT and tell me what the plan is to get that from stopping it's targeting of the unmanned ship. Now add boosts and implants. Now replace the ECCM with more targeting range mods and add another alt to the equation using remote ECCM on the Damnation. We can go on like this, but clearly this is not feasible to stop in high-sec. Not without a gang, which I don't think should be a prerequisite when a player wants to steal a single unmanned ship he stumbles upon in open space.
- Jam the remote ECCM alt to reduce the Damnations sensor strength - Jam the Damnation - Neut out the Damnation (Not sure how effective this would be, but with all that running, I wonder how stressed the capacitor actually would be, so how much would it take to neut it in a cycle) - Scram the Damnation, then bump it off like you normally would (if you are AFK, 1 cycle of a scram will shut off your MWD) - Last option is to simply lock up the bait yourself to prevent the guy in the Damnation from taking it as well.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
818
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Posted - 2014.12.19 11:13:55 -
[28] - Quote
Can someone explain why was it introduced in the first place? It makes no sense to me. |
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