Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shey Nabali
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 12:38:17 -
[1] - Quote
In general, level 5 missions are pretty well balanced. They are one of the highest isk/hr PvE activities in the game, with the only other one that comes close being wormhole capital escalations (and they are arguable superior to those as well).
There are a few issues with them however:
Firstly, they come with one absolutely CRUSHING disadvantage, that no other form of PvE carries. A huge number of L5 missions are against Empire faction rats. Running these missions is completely unavoidable if you want to run L5s profitably. This means that whatever character you are using to run the missions will become effectively permanently barred from half of high sec (depending on what faction you run for, the opposing two factions will eventually ban you from their space).
The second issue. There is a massive inconsistancy with level 5s on what class of ship(s) is required to run them, that doesn't exist in any other type of PvE. Not "can run them", but is absolutely NOT POSSIBLE TO COMPLETE without using those ships. Most of the ungated ones can be run in a carrier, but about half of them have acceleration gates. Most, but not all, of the gated ones can be run in a marauder. Some require you to multi-box multiple ships, and are sketchy even then. One of them will kill a brick tanked carrier faster than a C5 capital escalation. One of them takes over half an hour to finish unless you multi-box, or use a super-cap.
These are the missions that are pulled from gallente L5 agents, I'll go through them real quickly and hit some of the major issues with them. I'll also note which ones force you to take standings hits to empire factions.
-Stray Amarr/Caldari Carrier(Empire): This one is a nightmare. You have to deal well over a million damage to the primary target, while taking heavy damage from fighter drones, and getting heavily perma-nueted. BARELY doable in a solo carrier. Needs to either be multi-boxed with capitals (two carriers cap-chaining or a sniper dread+smartbombing carrier) or run with a supercap to be made manageable. It's possibly doable with multi-boxed subcaps, but I wouldn't wager on it. A marauder would not be viable.
-Location, Location(Empire): I've only done this one a couple times, and it nearly killed my ded-space fitted dual-XLASB vargur. Doable with most of the viable setups for gated missions, but def not easy. I don't remember anything about the follow-up missions it supposedly has, I've never done them I don't think.
-Rogue Spy: Gated, but you can run it with any of the viable gated missions setups, but it can take a pretty long time
-The Big String(3 missions)(Empire): The first mission is ungated, but both the followup missions are gated. This is stupid. Also, the first mission forces you to wait 8 minutes for the main target to spawn.
-Convoy Attack(Empire): Gated, there is a HUGE gap in difficulty depending on which faction you get it for. If you get amarr, it's pretty trivial. If you get Caldari.... Well, I almost lost my Vargur before I came our of bastion. Managed to MJD out and warp-off. And you also have to grind a collosal amount of EHP for this one as well.
-Fate of Angels: Another one that is more or less okay. Doesn't give an empire standings hit, doesn't have a ****** up difficulty level. Is ungated. DOES take so long to shoot through all the rats that it is almost never worth running anyways.
-Mordus Headhunters: Gated, but I've never run it.
-Honor: Same as previous
-Liberate the Miners(Empire): This one is doable with some of the gated running setups. Will absolutely wreck your **** if you **** up though. BARELY doable in a solo marauder as I recall.
-Recover the Containers(Empre): This mission is just... Stupid. You take standings hits. You have to bring an indy in to haul stuff. AND you have to hack containers. What the actual ****.
-Mass Drivers(Empire): I've run this one, I don't remember it being terribly hard, so I will give it a pass aside from giving yet MORE empire standings hits.
-Sansha on the Horizon: This one is fine, runnable in a carrier or various other setups.
-Cleaning House(Empire): Easy. Runnable in a carrier, or most sub-cap setups.
-Cleansing Fire(Empire): Absolutely trivial. Can be run by a variety of subcaps solo, that are tottaly non-viable for most other missions. Ungated.
-The Fortress(Empire): This is a carrier killer. Marauders and rattlesnakes will get volleyed off the field in seconds. You could try spider tanking with brick tanked battleships... Except the nuets will alpha your capacitor. The only practical option for running this mission is blitzing the mission target (a CSMA with a moderate number of hitpoints) and warping off. Did I mention there are frigates with warp disruptors? The only *safe* way to run this mission is with a Supercarrier or Titan. Even with a carrier, you have a high likelihood of occasionally dying due to pure bad luck.
-Operation Wyrmsbane: This mission is fine. Straightforward. Not hard, but not trivial.
-Operation Wyrmslayer: See previous
-Reclamation(Empire): Way to easy. You only have to shoot two things and can be finished in seconds with decent DPS.
-Sansha Acquisition: This one is pretty much fine. See Wyrmsbane
-Breeding Facility(Empire): Absolutely trivial. this mission should just be removed in the interest of balance. Warp in. Blap a structure that dies in a couple volleys (pretty sure a high alpha ship could probably 1-shot it) warp out. Done. No significant danger. Ungated.
-Wrath of Angels: This one is pretty much fine. See Wyrmsbane. Would be nice if you didn't have to loot the can, but w/e. Can occasionaly bug and not drop the mission item, which sucks.
Cont. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
862
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 13:16:04 -
[2] - Quote
I thought level V's were intended as fleet missions?? Being soloable in a carrier shouldn't be a consideration and nobody *has* to multi-box. That's just a handy way around fleet needs if you don't have enough friends online at the time.
Ed: Good information though and looks like you would need different fleet make ups for different missions which sounds right to me. Assuming I'm not being naive (nai-eve?) |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
1089
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 13:22:12 -
[3] - Quote
The only problem that I see with L5s is that there are many of them, which you can blitz in carriers or marauders. No L5 mission should be blitzable. |
Shey Nabali
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 13:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh: You can run some of them in a group. Key word: Some. That's part of what the whole issue is. They are massively inconsistent in difficulty and rewards compared to other PvP content. Even exploration really. The Fortress in particular will absolutely obliterate anything but a carrier. And those die fast. EDIT: And you are being slightly naive. L5s don't increase payout as you add more people. And the way the missions are structured you will almost always lose money by adding more people. To the point that it rapidly becomes unprofitable.
Rivr Luzade: Many of the non-blitzable missions (Fate of Angels, Stray Carrier) take so long to complete that they end up paying out worse isk/hr than a L4, while ALSO requiring either a carrier, or 4+ ships to run. I do agree missions like breeding facility are a bit silly, but there is a happy medium (wyrmsbane/wyrmslayer, wrath of angels, etc)
The really big issue is the faction standings hit. My main L5 character cannot EVER go back to Amarr or Caldari high-sec, without spending 100s of hours farming for storyline missions. Which seems... prohibitively harsh. And due to the already crappy mission pool that Requires you decline a large portion of the missions to start with, avoiding those faction standing hits is absolutely impossible. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
862
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 13:43:34 -
[5] - Quote
Perhaps there should be some SoE/CONCORD agents giving non-faction level V's. Balance them so that they need a fleet but pay out accordingly. |
Shey Nabali
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 13:49:49 -
[6] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Perhaps there should be some SoE/CONCORD agents giving non-faction level V's. Balance them so that they need a fleet but pay out accordingly.
TBH, if they don't want to rewrite the mission code and get rid of the standings hits completely, they could just add Empire agents who would accept tags for faction standings (only from -10 to 0 to prevent abuse probably).
Even then, it wouldn't be practical to keep your character up at 0 permanently (you can hit like -6 in a week of missioning, EASILY), but at least it would offer a way of recovering from the abyss of -10 faction standings without a soul crushing grind of 100s or 1000s of L1 missions. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
1089
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 14:22:24 -
[7] - Quote
Shey Nabali wrote: The really big issue is the faction standings hit. My main L5 character cannot EVER go back to Amarr or Caldari high-sec, without spending 100s of hours farming for storyline missions. Which seems... prohibitively harsh. And due to the already crappy mission pool that Requires you decline a large portion of the missions to start with, avoiding those faction standing hits is absolutely impossible.
I don't see that as an issue. You obviously do not run missions against the empire factions with a char that is supposed to go into high security empire space. I have a dedicated character for that; he's happily slaughtering Minmatar and Gallente when he runs missions and has no desire to go into Minmatar or Gallente high sec at all, unless one of their Low sec stations does not have certain skills available. In that case, he just goes in there in his ceptor, gets the books and leaves again completely unscathed. |
Maria Dragoon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 15:26:27 -
[8] - Quote
L5 missions are design for a fleet, people multiboxing to get around that is just a side effect of people wanting to generate max profit for themselves and not care about others. That being said, L5s ARE design for a fleet of people, it doesn't matter what you say about someone being naive, that how it is, if you wish to multibox to get around that, that is your problem and not the developers. For one, you are being naive that just because you lose a little bit of profit because you are unable to do something alone that design for more the one person to do, that the developers should change it to fit around you. Hint, it won't happen.
Next, this game is all about consequences of your actions. You want to max out your profit? Want to do those L5 missions? Well you better start picking a side of the war you want to live in, because that is the consequences of your actions. Unless you want to constantly jump around in space and doing a mission here, a mission there, to hopefully keep your standings up with everyone.
Welcome to the game of choices. Every choice you make as a long lasting impact on the game world around you, it time for you to man/woman up, and accept that fact. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
732
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 16:19:07 -
[9] - Quote
As the poster above me said, this is working as intended. you shouldn't be able to blitz or solo any of these missions. The fact that you can is a nice to have, not a right.
Pick a side in the factional split. Before I moved to 0.0 permanently, I ran L4's and 5's for Gallente and Minmatar. I also did FW for Gallente. Now I am -10.00 to Amarr and Caldari. Big deal. This character has an annoying message popup if I try to take him to Jita. That's about it. Your actions in Eve have consequences- this is a fairly mild one. And, you can work it off, if you want to. In the past you could not even do that.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
|
colera deldios
273
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 18:26:03 -
[10] - Quote
L5 missions are not there for you if you don't want to wreck your high sec access. They are so hard to do because they are there for people who enjoy the harsh enviroment of L5 missions and lowsec. They absolutely should be blitzable and when we say blitzable it means a carrier is pretty much stuck/sitting target super easy to drop/catch there for 5min.
In addition L5 mission don't bring that kind of ISK. You are delusional about L5 income from what you heard on reddit and few people who don't have the slightest clue about L5 missions.
I did L5 missions as main income for about a year during my time in Shadow Cartel. And they nowhere near bring in WH escalation ISK if you don't invest at least 6 mission pulling alts.
Look at the investment into L5 missions before they will pay out WH Escalation kind of ISK: At least 7-8 Characters due to devaluation of LP as a result of ESS modules. 3-4 carriers ( 1 for each system where agent gives missions in ) if you are lucky you get a outpost in each system otherwise you need to have outposts.
And you cannot make continous ISK you can get lucky and pull 5 missions before you can't decline anymore of unlucky and pull 1 on each character. And after all is done after everything is done you still need ISK to buy stuff worth selling from LP market ship it and survive trip to Jita and sell it there.
L5 missions are as they are. They are there to counter 0.0/WH income to give something to Pirates in 0.0 they are the PVE for PVPer.
L5 you can do them solo in a carrier or you can run them as a fleet. Only solo carrier is viable running them in a fleet will cripple your income to where LS L4s are much more profitable solo. L5 is good ISK after you invest some 10-12b into them and have backup from locals that hold the mission hub.
There is a consequence for doing L5's you will make very good ISK but such is the price to pay. It goes same with every other mission in 0.0 you will loose standing with other factions as you will in FW.
Accept the harsh reality of L5 missions or go mine in the belt. |
|
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
178
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 18:34:09 -
[11] - Quote
my problem with L5s is they were taken out of empire after a couple of years being declared an exploit. Had a fleet running them so missions weren't that difficult but going to low sec stopped that as areas of low sec with the lvl 5s we were running were swarming with pirates.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
ShadowNeo29
O.S.E.F A.A.A.A.A
15
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 07:14:09 -
[12] - Quote
level 5 are difficults but not impossible.
Solo Cerberus > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFS8fhHZLas&list=UUyuV5ImQsWYSgoUH9mPzATA |
Anthar Thebess
863
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 09:38:58 -
[13] - Quote
I think that current mission systems should be rethink.
Lets talk about NPC Nullsec space and new players, all of them are coming from higsec , where usual income source are lvl 4 missions.
When they arrive they notice very fast that they can make more isk in higsec lvl 4 missions than running belts in NPC space. What is also important they cannot run NPC pirate missions because they have already ruined standings , or are afraid that they will be cut off from going back to higsec.
After living years in nullsec i think that this game could only benefit if CCP could add few Higsec Faction agents to all NPC Nullsec regions.
Those could be lvl 4 or even lvl 5 agents - agents that could be good starting point for new nullsec groups , before they skill up and learn how to live in NPC Null.
As for the lvl 5 missions, they are to easy if you can blitz them in a carrier. They should require multiple people running them. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Brawlers Inc.
1437
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 11:10:22 -
[14] - Quote
This thread brings up some good points. All low sec missions should be gated to prevent capital entry, and mission difficulty should recieve a balance pass.
New player resources:
Uni Wiki - General Info
Eve Altruist - PvP
Belligerent Undesirables - High Sec Pvp
|
Ix Method
Shadows Legion High-Sec Tomfoolery
402
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 11:56:28 -
[15] - Quote
Shey Nabali wrote:The second issue. There is a massive inconsistancy with level 5s on what class of ship(s) is required to run them, that doesn't exist in any other type of PvE. Not "can run them", but is absolutely NOT POSSIBLE TO COMPLETE without using those ships. Most of the ungated ones can be run in a carrier, but about half of them have acceleration gates. Most, but not all, of the gated. If this annoys you and the Burners are anything to go by you should probably start looking for a new way to bear. Given they're going to the effort of making new tools to make missions interesting the future probably involves having a dozen ships for a variety of missions.
That you can solo the easy ones in lesser ships works just the same all the way down to L2s. Not that you're particularly wrong about them being a mess but when they clearly used all the tools available at the time to stop people soloing them it's hard to know exactly what you are expecting?
it's almost like it's intended.
Travelling at the speed of love.
|
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
236
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 16:52:35 -
[16] - Quote
level 5 missions are one of EVE's biggest isk faucets... |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 17:29:37 -
[17] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:level 5 missions are one of EVE's biggest isk faucets... Best suggestion is to just remove level 5 missions, problem solved. Solves OPs whine about faction issues, difference of gates vs no gates, different ships needed, reduces isk faucet, and definitely solves the issue of forum whining to solve an issue that is only perceived in the mind of the people who run them....when you have the choice, consider the options, and make yes/no to go for it, anything else is the associated outcomes that come with running level 5s (like asking for sec status to be removed and slow down CONCORD but let gankers run rampant in highsec...good idea? You decide lol). Hell, definetly another fix for the whine to "remove caps" since they would have no use for PVE then and helps remove afk cloaker problem from preventing you from running level 5s as well if the mission agent doesn't exist . Just have to think outside the capsule how it solves the issue or does it |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1044
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 17:30:47 -
[18] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:level 5 missions are one of EVE's biggest isk faucets...
Proving over and over again that no matter how many times you explain something, people will still manage to get it horribly wrong.
Lv V missions pay out primarily in LP. LP is a very significant isk Sink. The minor actual isk payments in Lv V missions are largely or completely eclipsed by the LP isk sink.
LV V missions are very close to, or are, an isk sink, not a faucet.
Even if it were a pure isk payout, in comparison to the gibbering hordes of highsec Lv IV mission runners or nullsec ratters, the isk people make from Lv V missions is a drop in the bucket given how few people actually run them. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1218
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 19:05:58 -
[19] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:This thread brings up some good points. All low sec missions should be gated to prevent capital entry, and mission difficulty should recieve a balance pass. Capitals are no problem. It is the nature of some, preferred L5s, which require the destruction of a low HP structure and then you can warp out. Catching caps with their pants down in an L5 is awesome, but it's fairly hard to accomplish as they can finish the mission fairly quickly and warp out before you can get things set up, especially for these ungated missions that are deadspace regardless and prevent lighting a cyno.
Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
|
Zekora Rally
Negative Density
10
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 23:42:38 -
[20] - Quote
Don't faction warfare missions give as much LP as lvl5s? |
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
564
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 09:25:40 -
[21] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think that current mission systems should be rethink.
Lets talk about NPC Nullsec space and new players, all of them are coming from higsec , where usual income source are lvl 4 missions.
When they arrive they notice very fast that they can make more isk in higsec lvl 4 missions than running belts in NPC space. What is also important they cannot run NPC pirate missions because they have already ruined standings , or are afraid that they will be cut off from going back to higsec.
After living years in nullsec i think that this game could only benefit if CCP could add few Higsec Faction agents to all NPC Nullsec regions.
Those could be lvl 4 or even lvl 5 agents - agents that could be good starting point for new nullsec groups , before they skill up and learn how to live in NPC Null...
Anthar dear, I thought nullsec has all the havens and sanctums that you don't need to do missions? They even have DED 7-10 plexes that they can run.
signature
|
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
912
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 09:30:08 -
[22] - Quote
Stop soloing L5's and take a few people? You know, you can pick up one mission per character and chain them sharing rewards, it the long run it is going to be a greater reward as you will complete more missions per head per hour.
Then again, I'm fairly sure you have already looked at this option and discarded it because it doesn't fit your rant. |
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
558
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 10:03:45 -
[23] - Quote
I say delete them. As fleet content, they've been replaced by incursions, which do the job much better.
They were never intended as solo content, so of course they are bad at that.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
|
Nolak Ataru
Boob Heads Black Legion.
671
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 17:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
MJD Raven, MJD Domi, MJD Rattler. |
Shey Nabali
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
14
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 02:39:02 -
[25] - Quote
Zekora Rally wrote:Don't faction warfare missions give as much LP as lvl5s?
Not even close. Most level 5s give in the neighborhood of 80-100k LP, and are faster to run as well (less travel time burning to the system.)
Adrie Atticus wrote:Stop soloing L5's and take a few people? You know, you can pick up one mission per character and chain them sharing rewards, it the long run it is going to be a greater reward as you will complete more missions per head per hour.
Then again, I'm fairly sure you have already looked at this option and discarded it because it doesn't fit your rant.
A solo level 5 runner can clear around 6 missions an hour. There is no reason to take other people, and it's irrelevant to the discussion.
Level 5s are not group content, it does not matter what CCPs "Vision" for them is. Running them as a group is hilariously inefficient, and basically noone does it. The people who do, get laughed at. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |