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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2091
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Posted - 2014.12.21 23:04:44 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of people dislike the way ECM works, but every proposed fix is just as broken or worse. The pattern I see with these proposals is that they miss what is really the problem with ECM: not that it is chance based but that it is all or nothing. When a target is jammed, they cannot do much of anything in combat. Aside from ECM-resisting strategies that have to be pre-fit before combat, there is next to nothing you can do but wait the timer out and hope you don't get jammed again.
As stated byRawketsled:
Rawketsled wrote:It's not that they're chance based.
Turrets are chance based, and nobody cries about that. -snip- When jammed, you have no option except for turning on ECCM.
That's what sucks about it. You just sit there and wait. Give the victim something to do to oppose the ewar effect applied to them.
My suggestion would usually leave the jammed ship with something to do after being jammed, and it would make jammers less of an all or nothing module. They would almost always have some negative effect on the opponent but almost never jam them completely.
The suggestion rides on using the target ship's max locked targets as discrete units, I'll call them potential target locks, or PTLs from here on out. It's simple: when you activate an ECM jammer against a target, you jam each of their PTLs separately. If they have 5 total and you have a 60% jam chance, you'll likely jam 3/5 of their PTLs. These could be target locks already in use or not, really just depending on random chance.
Let's say, for example, we use an ECM jammer against a ship with 5 PTLs, 2 of which are in use. It has two targets locked already and can lock up to a maximum of five. It is using PTL #1 and #2. We successfully jam out #2, #3, and #5. The ships' first target lock remains acquired, but the second lock is broken and must be manually reacquired. The enemy pilot immediately begins re-locking that target, using PTL #4 (the only one remaining). If we use a second ECM jammer on the opponent, there is a 60% chance we will jam out the target it does have acquired (on PTL #1), and another separate 60% chance we will jam out PTL #4 while it is still in the process of acquiring the target. The net chance of jamming both is 36% in addition to the chance of resetting the jam timer on 2, 3, and 5.
This would make it very easy for ECM to screw with someone's targeting, but much more difficult to completely remove their ability to target anything at all.
============================================================== additional balancing bits:
1.) Chance to jam would need to be increased a bit to compensate for the greatly increased chance of target maintaining one or more locks. 2.) Discrete target lock units count for ship and not player. For instance if a player with only the skill to lock 2 targets is in a ship that can lock 4 and the two they have already get jammed, they can immediately use the other two (if those are not jammed). A player can also grant themselves some resistance to ECM through fitting a Signal Amplifier, as it increases max targets locked.
already balanced:
1.) Ship size is already balanced with this because smaller ships will be jammed much more easily (less sensor strength) but will re-acquire target locks much more quickly when they get the chance (more scan resolution). 2.) Logistics and Recon ships, and any other ship types with a lot of PTLs will be much harder to jam completely. However, these ships rely on keeping multiple targets locked at once, and in some situations may feel the effects of the ECM even more strongly as they must continually re-acquire important targets (within their diminished target lock limit).
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
371
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Posted - 2014.12.21 23:18:07 -
[2] - Quote
The only real difference between ECM and TDs and SDs is the fact that with ECM, there is no illusion that you can do something. If you are properly TD'd or SD'd, even though your client tells you, if you just get a little bit closer, or it tells you, if you can just slow down the other guys transversal just a little bit more, realistically speaking, you still can't do anything. Since ECM breaks all your locks and tells you that you cannot do anything, there is no illusion that you actually still can do something.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:When a target is jammed, they cannot do much of anything in combat. Aside from ECM-resisting strategies that have to be pre-fit before combat, there is next to nothing you can do but wait the timer out and hope you don't get jammed again.
Anti TD and Anti SD fits have to be fit prior to the fight as well in order to fight more tracking computers and sensor boosters. If anything should be changed, it should be to give the ECCM module another small bonus along the lines of scan res or targeting range. But if this would be added to ECCM, the bonus should be less then what a sig amp gives you.
There are still things you can do while jammed
-Assign drones -Get your ship into a better position -F.O.F. missiles
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
311
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Posted - 2014.12.22 18:22:09 -
[3] - Quote
sooo its still pretty much all or nothing since you only need one lock |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2104
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Posted - 2014.12.22 19:00:41 -
[4] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sooo its still pretty much all or nothing since you only need one lock No, you still have to reacquire targets. That can be crippling to a ship that has to keep re-starting the lock and spends most of their time trying to lock a target rather than actually shooting. Also, just because most combat ships can function with only one target lock doesn't mean they have no use for more. And every once in a while a good jammer will have all of your locks out.
Plus, just think if they paired it with remote sensor dampeners. One major flaw in sensor damps is they don't break target lock if you are unable to lower the opponent's targeting range to under the distance to the target. If you apply them too late in a face-to-face brawl, they aren't much use. But combine them with my version of ECM, and you have two EWAR types that compound with each other. The ECM breaks the lock, and the damps make it take forever to get a lock re-acquired.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
971
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Posted - 2014.12.22 20:59:47 -
[5] - Quote
Reducing the jammed ship's maximum number of locked targets is not a new suggestion. But the effect is the same. If you don't completely lock out the target, they will come screaming for the ECM ship. If you do, they are permajammed.
In addition, there are actually a number of modules that will increase your maximum number of locked targets.
Such a change would also have to consider the SP allocated to sensor compensation skills, which were introduced as a direct counter to ECM. What is it, 5% per level? 20% increased sensor strength is pretty strong. Those SP would have to be refunded if the functionality of sensor strength were removed. Just recalled that combat probes consider sensor strength. So still functional.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2107
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Posted - 2014.12.22 21:30:24 -
[6] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Reducing the jammed ship's maximum number of locked targets is not a new suggestion. Treating target locks as discrete units is an original suggestion and while not new, that is only because this isn't the first time I have put it up here.
Soldarius wrote:But the effect is the same. If you don't completely lock out the target, they will come screaming for the ECM ship. If you do, they are permajammed. So time to lock target is completely a non-factor? Having your target lock break while you're busy trying to click your modules is a non-factor?
Soldarius wrote:Such a change would also have to consider the SP allocated to sensor compensation skills, which were introduced as a direct counter to ECM. What is it, 5% per level? 20% increased sensor strength is pretty strong. Those SP would have to be refunded if the functionality of sensor strength were removed. Just recalled that combat probes consider sensor strength. So still functional. I don't see how this is relevant. Sensor strength would determine your ECM vulnerability using the same calculation as before.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2014.12.22 22:50:14 -
[7] - Quote
I'd go for this if players could target the same ship multiple times, as a balancing measure for small gang combat |
Foxicity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2014.12.22 22:57:33 -
[8] - Quote
Reaver, I'm amenable to your idea. I have one issue though. You seem to imply that your version of ECM would also lack a "jam period" and would instead only break targets without the current 20s jam time. Care to clarify that detail, and how you feel that additional change is needed? |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2110
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:09:31 -
[9] - Quote
Foxicity wrote:Reaver, I'm amenable to your idea. I have one issue though. You seem to imply that your version of ECM would also lack a "jam period" and would instead only break targets without the current 20s jam time. Care to clarify that detail, and how you feel that additional change is needed? Each targeting unit would be jammed for the 20s, but if you have any left over, you can use those instead. If you, for instance, had three targets locked and those were your only unjammed targeting units, you would have to unlock one or wait the timer out to lock another target.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
0
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:12:21 -
[10] - Quote
Seems like it would simpler to give all ships all four flavors of sensor strength, but require some points in magnetometric to lock gallente hulls (magnetometric signature). If jammed by magnetometric jammers, the pilot would then be reduced to the option of locking minmatar, amarr, caldari, or split-faction hulls.
The math would simply be reduced to a simple addition and subtraction problem with successive jammers applied. What jammers you choose is then largely based on your fleet comp rather than their fleet comp.
A random number generator would still be used in falloff range, but sometimes I suspect that hit rate for all chance based modules is largely an artifact of the server tick rate. |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2110
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:20:13 -
[11] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:I'd go for this if players could target the same ship multiple times, as a balancing measure for small gang combat My suggestion wouldn't negatively affect small gang combat, so I disagree with your proposal.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2110
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:22:27 -
[12] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:Seems like it would simpler to give all ships all four flavors of sensor strength, but require some points in magnetometric to lock gallente hulls (magnetometric signature). If jammed by magnetometric jammers, the pilot would then be reduced to the option of locking minmatar, amarr, caldari, or split-faction hulls. That's not a bad idea. You could fit racial jammers to match your own fleet and not have to worry as much about their fleet composition when you don't even know who you'll be fighting.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
1
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:26:26 -
[13] - Quote
I guess that would also apply for ECCM and remote ECCM.
It's kinda surprising that there are no hulls with native bonuses to remote ECCM, remote tracking, or remote sensor boosting modules. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2112
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:54:41 -
[14] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:It's kinda surprising that there are no hulls with native bonuses to remote ECCM, remote tracking, or remote sensor boosting modules. Yeah I think the Exequror and Scythe should have a role bonus to the range of those modules even if they give no skill bonus to them.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
1
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Posted - 2014.12.23 00:12:24 -
[15] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Lienzo wrote:It's kinda surprising that there are no hulls with native bonuses to remote ECCM, remote tracking, or remote sensor boosting modules. Yeah I think the Exequror and Scythe should have a role bonus to the range of those modules even if they give no skill bonus to them.
Seems like they have enough to do. If we want to see exploration class ships leading squads, perhaps it would appropriate to give them such bonuses, or maybe some passive leadership traits. They usually have free target slots, and are preoccupied with the scanning screen anyhow.
I certainly don't get much use out of the hardpoint bonuses on my covert ops ships. |
Foxicity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
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Posted - 2014.12.23 02:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
I like it Reaver. Only problem is, it's kind of hard to explain, and there's not a UI method to show 'discrete locks' at this time. |
Sigras
Conglomo
991
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Posted - 2014.12.23 02:41:06 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sooo its still pretty much all or nothing since you only need one lock yeah, as a guardian pilot, i can confirm that I only ever need one target... |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2116
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Posted - 2014.12.23 04:00:44 -
[18] - Quote
Foxicity wrote:I like it Reaver. Only problem is, it's kind of hard to explain, and there's not a UI method to show 'discrete locks' at this time. This is my thought exactly. I wish more than anything that I had a way to show this, as it would be so much easier than trying to tell it. Then people might actually read the post and understand the proposal.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Lugh Crow-Slave
313
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Posted - 2014.12.23 07:19:06 -
[19] - Quote
let's say they go with this why would i use it over a damp if i was kiting or a TD if i was sig tanking? |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
373
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Posted - 2014.12.23 07:35:06 -
[20] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Plus, just think if they paired it with remote sensor dampeners. One major flaw in sensor damps is they don't break target lock if you are unable to lower the opponent's targeting range to under the distance to the target. If you apply them too late in a face-to-face brawl, they aren't much use. But combine them with my version of ECM, and you have two EWAR types that compound with each other. The ECM breaks the lock, and the damps make it take forever to get a lock re-acquired.
Ok, explain to me how this change fixes this flaw with ECM. It actually works this way right now, its possible to make a ship take over 20 seconds to lock someone back up after the ECM fails, which allows for another roll of the dice for the Falcon that's jamming. Your proposal doesn't change anything in this regard.
Lienzo wrote: It's kinda surprising that there are no hulls with native bonuses to remote ECCM, remote tracking, or remote sensor boosting modules.
I would encourage you to look at Logi ships.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Generaloberst Kluntz
Isogen 5
39
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Posted - 2014.12.23 11:03:17 -
[21] - Quote
ECM works as intended. Yes it's an all or nothing module and it's ok. Yes you can't do anything when jammed but during a whole fail cycle the culprit is useless against you unless he stacks jams. No jamming is not easy, staying on grid is not easy unless of course you're blobbing and still jamming in which case you're bad and shud feel bad. Whacky complicated useless idea, sorry. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
316
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Posted - 2014.12.23 11:11:12 -
[22] - Quote
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:ECM works as intended. Yes it's an all or nothing module and it's ok. Yes you can't do anything when jammed but during a whole fail cycle the culprit is useless against you unless he stacks jams. No jamming is not easy, staying on grid is not easy unless of course you're blobbing and still jamming in which case you're bad and shud feel bad. Whacky complicated useless idea, sorry.
but i don't like using them and i don't want to fit ECCM because i may not wind up needing it so ECM needs to be changed or removed.
At least damps make me feel like i can still get a lock if i get close enough and my guns still make flashy lights when i'm TD all to hell |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1387
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Posted - 2014.12.23 11:16:37 -
[23] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sooo its still pretty much all or nothing since you only need one lock No, you still have to reacquire targets. That can be crippling to a ship that has to keep re-starting the lock and spends most of their time trying to lock a target rather than actually shooting. That would only happen to anything bigger than a battelcruiser. Everything else can get a lock fast enough so it won't really matter.
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> AFK Cloaking Collection Thread
Please stop making "fix afk cloaking!" threads, your idea is not new. Thanks in advance.
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Fifth Blade
Velators at Dawn Project Wildfire
42
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Posted - 2014.12.23 11:18:46 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:It's simple: when you activate an ECM jammer against a target, you jam each of their PTLs separately. If they have 5 total and you have a 60% jam chance, you'll likely jam 3/5 of their PTLs. These could be target locks already in use or not, really just depending on random chance. You'd be better off just giving ECM a percentage chance to force them to lose 1 lock target for each jam. No penalty for relocking, but it keeps them in a constant cycle of relocking targets, not being able to focus a primary, not being able to rep the right ship (but doesn't prevent all action)
Obviously those ships would need to be buffed (read: their tank) so they remain viable after such a weakening of ECM, but they would still have value (depending on the chance).
tl;dr
Tanky (poor target) ships which disrupt cohesive action >>> flimsy ships which disable all action. The former makes for interesting strategy and target calling choices, the latter is annoying to fly, and annoying to fight. |
Generaloberst Kluntz
Isogen 5
39
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Posted - 2014.12.23 11:20:47 -
[25] - Quote
Nobody likes to get ganked, scammed or robbed, still those are valid gameplay in eve. Because you can prevent being ganked or scammed or Corp robbed. And you can bring damps to shut down those pesky blackbirds. "Awww I don't like them" isn't valid argument because some players like them. I know i do. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2014.12.23 18:16:04 -
[26] - Quote
I do like the idea, but I'm still supporting the small addition of multiple locks. you could split your guns that way so that you may get a few discrete points jammed but still supply some dps. a second lock on the same ship only, and a skill determined locking time penalty of no less than 1.75x normal
You get a faster re-lock, or a redundancy, like bracing for a hit you know is coming. The ecm could still knock out both chances of a lock, including the 2nd attempt underway, all that results from this is a chance to still deliver dps to a primary target. Like with tracking disruption and damping, a bit of forethought and ship flying/management should be able to cushion some effects, but not eliminate them. |
Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.12.23 18:34:49 -
[27] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Lienzo wrote:Seems like it would simpler to give all ships all four flavors of sensor strength, but require some points in magnetometric to lock gallente hulls (magnetometric signature). If jammed by magnetometric jammers, the pilot would then be reduced to the option of locking minmatar, amarr, caldari, or split-faction hulls. That's not a bad idea. You could fit racial jammers to match your own fleet and not have to worry as much about their fleet composition when you don't even know who you'll be fighting.
And of course in warfare, its doesn't matter who you fight.
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to "win" a fight without caring about the other sides fleet comp. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2130
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Posted - 2014.12.23 22:07:04 -
[28] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Ok, explain to me how this change fixes this flaw with ECM. It actually works this way right now, its possible to make a ship take over 20 seconds to lock someone back up after the ECM fails, which allows for another roll of the dice for the Falcon that's jamming. Your proposal doesn't change anything in this regard. The existing ECM adds exactly 20 seconds to their lock time, regardless of everything else. My proposal has a lower chance of preventing locking for 20 seconds and a higher chance of breaking the lock at all.
Debora Tsung wrote:That would only happen to anything bigger than a battelcruiser. Everything else can get a lock fast enough so it won't really matter. That is highly situational. Even a battleship can lock a carrier within 5 seconds without any boosts, while even a sensor-boosted Claw will take over 5 seconds to lock a capsule with 2x fully bonused damps on it. Frigates don't lock frigates that much faster than battleships lock battleships, and frigates are much more vulnerable to ECM than battleships are.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2130
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Posted - 2014.12.23 22:16:48 -
[29] - Quote
Shakira Akira wrote:And of course in warfare, its doesn't matter who you fight.
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to "win" a fight without caring about the other sides fleet comp. You forum warriors love to spout off about how utterly important it is to know exactly what you're up against even before undocking, and how utterly complacent everyone is for admitting they don't know. Well realistically there will always be fights you didn't expect, usually the majority of them.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Generaloberst Kluntz
Isogen 5
44
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Posted - 2014.12.23 22:53:55 -
[30] - Quote
OTOH if my fleet doesn't know even vaguely what's coming, the fight is generally expected to be lost before it begins. -Sun Tzu |
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